Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Dreedo on September 19, 2018, 08:20:37 pm

Title: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on September 19, 2018, 08:20:37 pm
New to using a forum. Had trouble with my center stand so tonight looked to see if there is an adjustment and found the aluminum frame is cracked on both sides. Bike has 4400 miles and the bike only had 200 miles on it when I bought it. Never been hit or hit anything with it. This appears to be the major part of the frame. Any advise or has anyone else ever had this happen?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Tree on September 19, 2018, 08:31:59 pm
Never seen this before...   someone on the forum may have.  Stay tuned.

***OPINION ALERT***

One way this could happen is if this bike was transported on a truck/trailer while resting on the center stand.  It may have been strapped down real good but there is no protection for the stand.  I've heard it suggested as a method of transport but all of the weight of the bike crushes down with every bump.  Better to keep it on the tires/shocks with it resting on the kick stand.  IMO.

*** END OPINION***
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on September 19, 2018, 08:36:52 pm
Thanks for the advice but the bike has only been on a trailer once fully resting on the wheels. Good to know though.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Tree on September 19, 2018, 08:38:46 pm
Thanks for the advice but the bike has only been on a trailer once fully resting on the wheels. Good to know though.

Yep.  I generally pop into a post, offer some stupid opinion, and then disappear back into the cave.  Good luck getting her squared away.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Freddy on September 19, 2018, 11:12:28 pm
Take it back to the dealer - like all of us, they will say: 'never heard of it.'
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on September 19, 2018, 11:38:08 pm
Welcome!

Definitely a first I have ever seen/heard (and I have seen/heard a lot).  Back to the dealer to let them inspect, ASAP.  That is far more than a crack, a whole section is completely missing!  Is it like that on the other side too??  I would NOT ride it in that condition, myself (if I could avoid it).  It looks severely compromised and unsafe.  The entire load of the rear suspension goes through that section of frame.

You bought it as "new" or "used"?  From a Kawasaki dealer?  Please always post the year of the bike.  Best to add it to your signature or avatar.  And please let us know what happens with this saga.  Best of luck.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 20, 2018, 04:15:20 am
Never seen that one.   I have heard of stress cracks in MC frames but this looks like it took a severe hit.  What year is the bike?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on September 20, 2018, 06:01:00 am
The bike is a 2013 model. Bought it with 200 miles on it as a consignment from Plano Kawasaki. The other side isn't missing a piece but does have an open crack. Thanks for the input. Going on the trailer today to the dealership.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on September 20, 2018, 07:22:48 am
Looks like the break started at the heat effected zone of the weld.
So it's possible it was bad welds?
Good luck.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: kzz1king on September 20, 2018, 09:00:23 am
Can you paint over it? Sorry. Good luck and I dont think I would ride it either.
Wayne
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MtnRider on September 20, 2018, 09:10:28 am
Is there evidence of an impact on the front of the lower frame section (in front of the suspension links)? You said consignment sale so wondering if a PO might have ran into something pretty hard that initiated a crack in those areas. Then decided to get rid of his "problem". Over the time you've put 4200 miles on it the cracks could have propagated to the point they are now.

Leo
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on September 20, 2018, 10:59:33 am
A little JB Weld maybe?

Seriously, I hope you get this worked out. I have never seen anything like that.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: tweeter55 on September 20, 2018, 03:22:21 pm
Good thing you had trouble with the center stand.
Keep us abreast (easy boys) of the progress.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 20, 2018, 03:54:03 pm
Never seen that one.   I have heard of stress cracks in MC frames but this looks like it took a severe hit.  What year is the bike?

I'm thinking the same thing, and also never seen this pop up before..

it does look like it took a severe whack to the lower (front, left in photo) part, as that area has some  darker residue, like aging, to it.. it probably got whacked hard on a curb or something, and after time the crack grew and finally failed (as seen by the clean metal at the rear and top).

tough to predict when it occurred, but I'd bet it's the reason it got sold...
bummer, best of luck getting this taken care of...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Tree on September 20, 2018, 04:41:50 pm
C'mon.  Seriously?  That'll buff right out.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on September 20, 2018, 05:01:31 pm
it probably got whacked hard on a curb or something[...]tough to predict when it occurred, but I'd bet it's the reason it got sold...

My thoughts, too.  I don't believe that is any type of fault of Kawasaki (not warranty covered).  I hope that is a reputable dealer, it is likely to get really messy...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jwh20 on September 20, 2018, 05:20:45 pm
Unfortunately there no really no way to repair that.  The only fix that I can imagine here is a frame replacement which is a big and expensive job.  Hoping your dealer is able to help out.  One possibility might be an appeal to the Kawasaki Factory if there is any evidence that this is defect-related vs. having been caused by some impact or other careless handling of the bike.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on September 20, 2018, 06:34:45 pm
Update. Local service manager had never seen anything like it. The underside shows no signs of impact, which I already knew, so he said he would send pics to Kawasaki to see if they would make it right as my warranty went out this last April. The other side has an open crack about 3 to 4 inches long. Will wait and see what they do. Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Rhino on September 21, 2018, 09:56:31 am
Sure hope they make you whole. Otherwise that's going to be one expensive parts bike.  :'(
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: tonedeaf2 on September 21, 2018, 09:20:44 pm
Can't even begin to think of what might have happened. Sure doesn't look like something resulting from a typical accident. If it is a defective part, it is defective beyond anything I have seen. I wonder if it is possible to trace some of the major parts and see if they are original.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 23, 2018, 06:18:12 am
One could always look in the same area on their bike and see if there's any cracking of the welds.  I'd do mine but getting on the floor these days and then trying to get back up (easy boys) can be difficult.  How about some of you whipper snappers do that and report back?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: lather on September 23, 2018, 01:03:42 pm
I'm hardly a whippersnapper but I did just that when I saw the first post. No sign of cracks or signs of stress. Just puzzlement as to how the pictured damage could have occured.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 23, 2018, 01:37:47 pm
 :)   You know, there was a redesign for the Gen 2s on the oil pan plug.  I wonder if something changed in the center stand area?  I'd knock my oil pan plug off with a knock on the bottom area.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: kzz1king on September 23, 2018, 04:46:08 pm
If I were MamaKaw I would give you a new bike in exchange for all photos being removed from the internet!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: lather on September 23, 2018, 07:52:16 pm
:)   You know, there was a redesign for the Gen 2s on the oil pan plug.  I wonder if something changed in the center stand area?  I'd knock my oil pan plug off with a knock on the bottom area.
The oil plug cover on my first 08 WAS knocked off by an impact that also ground off a third of thr plug bolt head. I'd like to see a pic of the crack on the other side. Might gives a clue.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Poseidon on September 24, 2018, 04:05:04 pm
It could be a bad casting. It happens sometimes with cast aluminum. That is probably why the dealer is sending it to Kawasaki.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Rhino on September 25, 2018, 09:08:53 am
Hey Dreedo, please keep us informed as to what Kawasaki does. Thank you.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on October 03, 2018, 04:29:18 pm
Good news! Kawasaki is going to replace the frame at no expense to me. They said that the frame failure couldn't have been caused by anything a rider could've done on the bike. No signs of any impacts. Local service department has ordered the replacement frame and I should be back on the road in about 3 weeks. Kawasaki did what was right but didn't have to since technically my warranty went out in April 2018. Good to know there are companies that still stand by their products. Also through all this I've realized that just checking tire pressures, oil levels and other common maintenance items is not always enough when you are dependent on two wheels for motoring down the highway.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 03, 2018, 04:54:35 pm
That is shocking and yet also fantastic news.  Replacing the frame is a *major* expense and will mean taking apart most of the bike and putting it back together again.  So there are risks (that the dealer doesn't do it right or misses something or breaks something else in the long complicated process).

Wow

Wow that the dealer was so cooperative.
Wow that it was deemed a defect.
Wow that Kawasaki will go to that length to repair it.
Wow that Kawasaki will cover it out of warranty.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MtnRider on October 03, 2018, 06:21:46 pm
They probably want it back so they can analyze it to figure out what went wrong.

The cynical would say maybe to get it out of public view but with a manufacturing background which includes working for a Japanese manufacturer I'm betting on the analysis. I'm sure there a lot of folks over there going, "WTF!?!? I want see that frame!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: p07r0457 on October 04, 2018, 05:59:05 am
They probably want it back so they can analyze it to figure out what went wrong.

The cynical would say maybe to get it out of public view but with a manufacturing background which includes working for a Japanese manufacturer I'm betting on the analysis. I'm sure there a lot of folks over there going, "WTF!?!? I want see that frame!
Yes, I think that is likely true.  I doubt much thought was put into "keeping it out of public view" since it's already been posted online, and the "Streisand Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)" is a thing.

What does surprise me, however, is that they're doing the frame swap...  It would seem easier to just take the bike back and give the guy a new bike.  When you factor in labor, I bet it's cheaper to swap bikes...  Plus Kawasaki would win big brownie points.

I would also assume that there is value in the engineers seeing the whole bike and being able to tear it down, themselves.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 04, 2018, 03:11:31 pm
What does surprise me, however, is that they're doing the frame swap...  It would seem easier to just take the bike back and give the guy a new bike.  When you factor in labor, I bet it's cheaper to swap bikes...  I would also assume that there is value in the engineers seeing the whole bike and being able to tear it down, themselves.

Exactly.  It is really odd to me they would want to do it this way.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jimmymac on October 04, 2018, 03:21:37 pm
If it was brand new, I'm sure they would. They can look at the frame and figure it out.
I would worry about the zit faced kid that's going to assemble it...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: B.D.F. on October 04, 2018, 03:30:19 pm
Behind the scenes, the fact is that Kawasaki pays their dealers very little for labor. This is no doubt what makes changing out 'just' a frame attractive. If I remember correctly, Kawasaki pays 3.2 hours of labor for a valve lash check and adjust and for any of us who have actually done one, we know this is not even close to a bad joke. Twice that time is not enough. So while the labor hours may be high, Kawasaki is getting them at a greatly, often ridiculous, 'cut- rate' schedule.

I have often made the amusing observation that they must not use 'Earth hours' but rather 'Jupiter or Saturn hours  to set the time of given tasks / repairs.

I do not mean to sound negative toward Kawasaki; I have always though they made a terrific product and am really a big fan. But in the world of dealer- compensated repairs, it really is a badly stacked- deck against the dealers when Mama Kaw is buying.

Brian

Yes, I think that is likely true.  I doubt much thought was put into "keeping it out of public view" since it's already been posted online, and the "Streisand Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)" is a thing.

What does surprise me, however, is that they're doing the frame swap...  It would seem easier to just take the bike back and give the guy a new bike.  When you factor in labor, I bet it's cheaper to swap bikes...  Plus Kawasaki would win big brownie points.

I would also assume that there is value in the engineers seeing the whole bike and being able to tear it down, themselves.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on October 04, 2018, 04:22:01 pm
e.

I have often made the amusing observation that they must not use 'Earth hours' but rather 'Jupiter or Saturn hours  to set the time of given tasks / repairs.



Brian

I don't know, Brian, the day on Jupiter is about Earth 10 hours, and the day on Saturn is about Earth 11 hours, so if you broke their day up into 24 hours... :finger_fing11:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: B.D.F. on October 04, 2018, 04:49:00 pm
Yep, the gas giants spin relatively rapidly. I was making a snide reference to having a 'short' number of hours make more sense and sighting the big planets as having 'long days', which they really do not. They have long years though; maybe that is how Mama K figures the hours.... dividing a Jupiter year into 365 1/4 days?

Back to the hours per repair / function ratio: at least on cars, the 'Motor manuals' are usually used as a third party for how long something takes. And given a decent environment and reasonable (or better) tools, most can beat the Motor estimated hours for a task and therefore make an actual living as a mechanic. But motorcycles do not have outside sources for repair / work time estimates and the manufacturer sets them, seemingly always well in the mfg's favor in my experience. I know I could not do a C-14 valve lash check / adjust in 3.2 hours, Earth or otherwise. :-)

Brian

I don't know, Brian, the day on Jupiter is about Earth 10 hours, and the day on Saturn is about Earth 11 hours, so if you broke their day up into 24 hours... :finger_fing11:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 04, 2018, 05:39:34 pm
Where's Conrad when you need him?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on October 04, 2018, 06:37:18 pm
If it was brand new, I'm sure they would. They can look at the frame and figure it out.
I would worry about the zit faced kid that's going to assemble it...

when I tried to respond to this thread last night, my computer locked up...

to add, I would have to assume that Kaw, want's to see this 'complete' frame, to ascertain any other defects that may have occurred on it during it's trip in assembly, and welding... this is not something they take lightly, as history shows when Goldwing frames began cracking regularly from a similar issue at Honda...

I am willing to bet, this whole 'frame replacement' from beginning till it's completed, will be watched over by a Kaw supplied factory tech person, and measurements, and prior inspection of torques, and dimensions will be done as it is taken apart...
I'd also bet that Kaw staffed person turns most of the wrenches... during the job.

I don't have any belief they will let the 'kid' at the dealership even touch a wrench during this... I await further commentary from the o/p, about this whole process, when it's revealed how it will be undertaken and what transpires... In some areas, I do highly respect Kaw's choices, this one particularly... and I'm sure it will be worthy for all parties...
I hope this shows just how much it means to the manufacturer, to analyze, and feed back information (just as they have done in the past, when the bike first appeared, and they silently and unkbeknownst to all, watched us pick apart, and report every little thing that was a defect), taking it as a barometer of how to correct faults.. and further prevent others...
this occurance COULD have had a very bad, multi million $$$$$ slap on them, via a personal injury... they are taking this seriously...

Kudo's.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on October 04, 2018, 09:26:50 pm
Yep, the gas giants spin relatively rapidly. I was making a snide reference to having a 'short' number of hours make more sense and sighting the big planets as having 'long days', which they really do not. They have long years though; maybe that is how Mama K figures the hours.... dividing a Jupiter year into 365 1/4 days?

Back to the hours per repair / function ratio: at least on cars, the 'Motor manuals' are usually used as a third party for how long something takes. And given a decent environment and reasonable (or better) tools, most can beat the Motor estimated hours for a task and therefore make an actual living as a mechanic. But motorcycles do not have outside sources for repair / work time estimates and the manufacturer sets them, seemingly always well in the mfg's favor in my experience. I know I could not do a C-14 valve lash check / adjust in 3.2 hours, Earth or otherwise. :-)

Brian

Yeah, I don't see how it is possible. Just messin' with ya. I wish I could do one that quickly.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on October 06, 2018, 07:18:06 am
Where's Conrad when you need him?

You rang?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 06, 2018, 08:11:04 am
You rang?

Wrong number...  :)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 06, 2018, 08:42:41 pm
I rang...celestial stuff.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on October 07, 2018, 06:20:13 am
Wrong number...  :)

Spoofed?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on October 07, 2018, 06:20:52 am
I rang...celestial stuff.

As in heavenly bodies?    :P
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 07, 2018, 08:14:53 am
That would be correct although not what you were thinking..
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on October 07, 2018, 10:12:25 am
That would be correct although not what you were thinking..

'were thinking'? As in past tense?  ???
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 07, 2018, 10:40:40 am
Slowly I turn...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on October 07, 2018, 10:58:18 pm
Please post how many hours the shop needs to replace that frame. Back in the days when I was a claims adjuster, we were told to total any bike with a bad frame .
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 08, 2018, 05:45:05 am
Please post how many hours the shop needs to replace that frame. Back in the days when I was a claims adjuster, we were told to total any bike with a bad frame .

Exactly.  Even with reasonable labor cost, this has to be a controlled, supervised examination and not just a repair.   The scrapped parts, alone, on an otherwise extremely good condition bike could pay for a replacement.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on October 08, 2018, 06:38:57 am
Slowly I turn...

 :)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on October 08, 2018, 10:04:54 am
Please post how many hours the shop needs to replace that frame. Back in the days when I was a claims adjuster, we were told to total any bike with a bad frame .

True, but this isn't an insurance claim.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on October 08, 2018, 12:44:39 pm
I’m aware it’s not an insurance claim. I’m just curious because I can’t think of a more labor intensive thing to do to this bike than swap out a frame.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 08, 2018, 03:07:40 pm
I can’t think of a more labor intensive thing to do to this bike than swap out a frame.

Complete engine rebuild AND swap out the frame :)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jimmymac on October 08, 2018, 05:30:01 pm
To get real, swapping out a frame is no biggie. If you do it right, it comes apart in some big chunks. You don't fully disassemble the thing. Cut some zip ties and it's about 4 bolts. Like a Bug. 8)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 08, 2018, 05:38:34 pm
To get real, swapping out a frame is no biggie. If you do it right, it comes apart in some big chunks. You don't fully disassemble the thing. Cut some zip ties and it's about 4 bolts. Like a Bug. 8)

To be fair, it is a lot more than just 4 bolts.  First you have to take off considerable plastics.  That alone will be a chore.  There are all the engine mounts, all the suspension mountings, and all the stuff that you have to remove to get to the frame and have the frame clear the work space.  I don't know the exact procedure on a C14, but I would have to guess it is pretty major.

I love this photo:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on October 08, 2018, 06:34:28 pm
To get real, swapping out a frame is no biggie. If you do it right, it comes apart in some big chunks. You don't fully disassemble the thing. Cut some zip ties and it's about 4 bolts. Like a Bug. 8)


 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

dude....

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Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Cuda on October 08, 2018, 06:54:34 pm
WWHHOO''SS got the ACID :pukeface: :yikes:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on October 08, 2018, 08:46:47 pm
Taking all the stuff off the old frame shouldn’t be that bad. But the classic auto repair manual line “assembly is the reverse of disassembly” is tough. Lots of wiring looms to transfer too.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conniesaki on October 08, 2018, 09:32:45 pm
To get real, swapping out a frame is no biggie. If you do it right, it comes apart in some big chunks. You don't fully disassemble the thing. Cut some zip ties and it's about 4 bolts. Like a Bug. 8)

No problem! I can take apart almost anything!  :finger_fing11:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on October 08, 2018, 10:04:28 pm
No problem! I can take apart almost anything!  :finger_fing11:

Now, putting it back together.... and correctly....
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jimmymac on October 09, 2018, 04:49:58 am
I'm glad you guys enjoyed that post. Thanks for the hit, BTW. 8)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on October 09, 2018, 08:12:21 am
After it’s put together, will there be some parts leftover with no idea where they should go?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 09, 2018, 03:42:26 pm
That's generally the way my projects work.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: fartymarty on October 10, 2018, 10:57:37 am
C'mon.  Seriously?  That'll buff right out.
  :rotflmao:


Yep.  I generally pop into a post, offer some stupid opinion, and then disappear back into the cave. 

Such online honesty is quite rare these days, however personally I didn't think it was stupid, just wasn't the case this time.

Behind the scenes, the fact is that Kawasaki pays their dealers very little for labor. This is no doubt what makes changing out 'just' a frame attractive. ......

......I do not mean to sound negative toward Kawasaki; I have always though they made a terrific product and am really a big fan. But in the world of dealer- compensated repairs, it really is a badly stacked- deck against the dealers when Mama Kaw is buying.

Generally it takes longer as warranty work is used to fill in down time, the minute a tire change comes in, the tools on the warranty repair get dropped and the tire machine is fired up. Unless it is really going to be a closely supervised priority repair as some here suspect, I would be surprised if it only takes 3 weeks.

My gear replacement under warranty took several months (supposedly some of that time was waiting on the gear to be shipped from Japan?) however warranty work or not, to this day it seems it was expertly done. I was expecting to find strange vibrations or I don't know what after having it all torn apart and put back together again. I was so surprizingly pleased that a few weeks later I took the service manager and the mechanic some morning Kolaches/donuts and a small assortment of gift cards for near to the dealer lunch spot restaurants.

I hope Dreedo gets the same results, best wishes and let us know how it goes.

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 14, 2018, 07:59:46 pm
So Kawasaki made good on their promise to replace the frame at no expense to me. Bargers Allsport in Waco finished the work and road tested the bike. Back like new. I want to thank the Service department at Bargers for going the extra mile to help me get the repairs covered. I was shown the frame in its naked state and the cracks were more extreme than what could be seen. The service department employee told me has no idea what was holding it together. My response, the grace of God. Now we just need all the rain to slow down so I can enjoy it.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 14, 2018, 08:09:13 pm
 :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :thumbs: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: route66tc on November 15, 2018, 05:21:25 am
So Kawasaki made good on their promise to replace the frame at no expense to me. Bargers Allsport in Waco finished the work and road tested the bike. Back like new. I want to thank the Service department at Bargers for going the extra mile to help me get the repairs covered. I was shown the frame in its naked state and the cracks were more extreme than what could be seen. The service department employee told me has no idea what was holding it together. My response, the grace of God. Now we just need all the rain to slow down so I can enjoy it.
Did you get pics of the naked frame?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 15, 2018, 05:28:40 am
Sorry no I didn't.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on November 15, 2018, 05:39:35 am
Great news!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jimmymac on November 15, 2018, 06:09:52 pm
Totally Awesome! While it's raining, keep checking things over.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on November 15, 2018, 07:15:57 pm
Did they replace the manufacturer plate on the frame?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 16, 2018, 06:32:48 am
I went back and got photos of the frame. Cracks followed the welds around the swingarm connection. Cracks had actually separated and one piece had fallen out. I was able to take the bike out yesterday evening and all works great. Probably not a bad idea to inspect these areas on a regular basis. The new frame was stamped with the bike original vin number by the dealership.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on November 16, 2018, 11:13:41 am
Great to hear it is back together with a new frame. The damage is unbelievable. Glad you caught it when you did. Oh, and how do you like the seat? I have considered it myself.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: tweeter55 on November 16, 2018, 11:59:08 am
That could have been so much worse than it already was. Now I'm going to be the one to ask the stupid question...
In the 2nd photo, when I enlarged it I still could not make out what the white "substance" is that's beside the weld. It looks like caulk to me.
Any explanation?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on November 16, 2018, 02:52:04 pm
Wow, amazing photos.  You are so lucky there wasn't a catastrophic failure while riding!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: route66tc on November 17, 2018, 04:23:44 am
Thanks very much for taking the time to go back and get pics of the frame for everyone to see.  Those pics are very valuable information for every C14 owner!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on November 17, 2018, 06:09:48 am
Thanks very much for taking the time to go back and get pics of the frame for everyone to see.  Those pics are very valuable information for every C14 owner!

It is very interesting, for sure, but I am not sure it is "valuable for every owner".... that would imply this is something we need to look out for.  In defense of Kawasaski, I have been reading countless thousands of postings about the C14 for 9 years now, many by people who are pretty well connected and informed, and I have never seen a single posting about a cracked or damaged frame, ever (outside of major accident damage, and even that is rare).

What happened to him is so rare as to perhaps be singular.... and we still really don't know anything about what caused the problem.  Unfortunately, we probably never will know, either.  Just because Kawasaki stepped up and fixed it (and out of warranty at that) still doesn't mean it left the factory with any frame or weld flaws.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jwh20 on November 17, 2018, 07:07:29 am
It seems to me to be an amazing amount of damage for a bike/frame that has not been in an accident.  I'd hope that Kawasaki's rational for fixing this out-of-warranty is a combination of goodwill as well as genuine interest in having the broken frame back for analysis.  As others have noted, this is a very rare happening even for a crashed bike.  I know if I was an engineer at Kawasaki I would want to know what happened here.  Was it bad materials, bad manufacturing, or something that happened to the bike after it left the factory.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: katata1100 on November 17, 2018, 10:16:21 am
They’d want to know if there were more out there ; each one is an expensive potential lawsuit.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: PH14 on November 17, 2018, 10:52:41 am
That could have been so much worse than it already was. Now I'm going to be the one to ask the stupid question...
In the 2nd photo, when I enlarged it I still could not make out what the white "substance" is that's beside the weld. It looks like caulk to me.
Any explanation?

That is just the color of the alloy, "enhanced" some by the exposure.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on November 17, 2018, 11:24:38 am
If this was caused by a manufacturing problem, would be good to know vin number of the machine?
Others can look to see if they have a bike made at the same approximate time.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: fartymarty on November 17, 2018, 12:11:13 pm
In the 2nd photo, when I enlarged it I still could not make out what the white "substance" is that's beside the weld. It looks like caulk to me.
Any explanation?

That is just the color of the alloy, "enhanced" some by the exposure.

To be clear, "exposure" means photographic exposure or in this case over exposure, not exposure to the elements. The frame being painted/powder coated black contrasts with the revealed unpainted aluminum enough that the aluminum looks white and pasty instead of silver/gray. Looking at the photo you can see that the aluminum displayed is an angled break going back under the welding bead and not a straight through crack at 90 degrees to the surface. The attached manipulated photo may or may not make it clearer.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 17, 2018, 12:44:14 pm
So in response to the conversations about the photos. The white in the crack is the clean alloy illuminated because I had to use flash in the dark service area in order to take the picture. I agree with the comment about the frame being a bit of an oddity in that this is rare and unheard of on these bikes. The local service manager and the service manager from the dealership where the bike was purchased have never seen or heard of this ever. The local service manager said he has only seen this kind of damage on a totaled bike where bad things happened to the rider. This bike has never been down, bumped and most importantly wrecked. All of the damage followed the welded areas so what caused it, who knows but it still isn't a bad idea to inspect these areas as your life could depend on it. Also thanks again to Kawasaki for doing what is right even though technically they weren't obligated to replace it at no cost to me. It speaks highly of the company.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 17, 2018, 12:47:28 pm
In response to the Saddleman seat. I love it. Comfortable. Great improvement over the factory seat. No numb butt.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 17, 2018, 02:38:23 pm
It seems to me to be an amazing amount of damage for a bike/frame that has not been in an accident.  I'd hope that Kawasaki's rational for fixing this out-of-warranty is a combination of goodwill as well as genuine interest in having the broken frame back for analysis.  As others have noted, this is a very rare happening even for a crashed bike.  I know if I was an engineer at Kawasaki I would want to know what happened here.  Was it bad materials, bad manufacturing, or something that happened to the bike after it left the factory.

What you note above, is EXACTLY why Kaw was interested in covering this repair, they are a very complete and technically astute company.
As a Mechanical engineer myself, that has worked in both the consumer product industry, and also Military, Nuclear and Defense Industry, and extensive welding and fabricating processes, I can say without a doubt the first issue Kaw want's to address, is going back thru records of all the parts and assembly, with special regard to all automated welding that occurred, and the materials used during the period of manufacture. This stuff, even tho most don't realize or believe, is extremely well documented within the manufacturing infrastructure. Raw materials, both used in cast parts, and machined parts, spools of welding wire, etc., along with periodic non destructive testing that they actually do, is all recorded, and each part fabricated has a paper trail, or should I say a bar coded electronic record trail within their system.
Even something as 'invisible' as a malfunction on the automated welder, if the 'shield gas' was not present due to a malfunctioning valve... would have popped up on the controls, and been corrected; so there would be a record of that occurrence.

I mention that particular part of the welding process, because I have seen this happen before, when incorrect or lack of correct "shielding gas" was not present during the welding process, which resulted in structurally unsound welds, even tho visually (via UV Mag-Flux), and ultrasonically(no porosity contaminants seen) the welds appeared fine. But during microscopic analysis of the cross section of the weld, and chemical composition, the grain structures of the weld components could be seen as root cause

Now, they will do in depth NDT, Ultrasonic, X-ray, and chemical analysis, of that particular failure; and determine the root cause.  Been there, and done that myself, when I worked in defense critical products and structural analysis.

It's all for good tho, and behind the scenes, they will compile a "list' of all the possibly effected units in the field, and issue 'silently' send a notification to those possibly effected (like the bike produced from that week prior, and after) the suspect part was installed on.

I'm just glad the dealership actually took this seriously, and persistence resulted in a good outcome for all concerned.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: fartymarty on November 17, 2018, 07:16:34 pm
I'm just glad the dealership actually took this seriously, and persistence resulted in a good outcome for all concerned.
Hear Hear!

Yes indeed, Kudos to the dealer for sure. Especially since (if I have followed Dreedo's posts correctly) the repair (Waco TX?) wasn't done at the dealership of purchase (Plano TX?).
Certainly a dealership's service department to remember in a good way (Barger's Allsport (https://www.bargersallsports.net/) in Waco?).
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 18, 2018, 03:27:22 pm
Hear Hear!

Yes indeed, Kudos to the dealer for sure. Especially since (if I have followed Dreedo's posts correctly) the repair (Waco TX?) wasn't done at the dealership of purchase (Plano TX?).
Certainly a dealership's service department to remember in a good way (Barger's Allsport (https://www.bargersallsports.net/) in Waco?).

that one totally went over my head.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
any relation to famous "Sonny"... :rotflmao: :yikes: :rotflmao:   just kidding...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: tbanzer on November 19, 2018, 01:13:53 pm
As Mentioned previously, other than bike being hauled on a long rough ride on the center stand I couldn't see how any normal operation of the bike could cause this.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Dreedo on November 22, 2018, 06:51:52 pm
As I've already said the bike has never been hauled on the center stand. Been hauled twice in it's life,first when purchased and second when taken to the dealership for these repairs. Both times restrained with no stands down and was using the Canyon Dancer System to secure the bike.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: jwh20 on November 22, 2018, 07:33:03 pm
As I've already said the bike has never been hauled on the center stand. Been hauled twice in it's life,first when purchased and second when taken to the dealership for these repairs. Both times restrained with no stands down and was using the Canyon Dancer System to secure the bike.

Even if it was, I Just can't imagine that the frame itself would be the "weakest link" in the system.  Something else on the bike would almost certainly give way first.  I'm going to speculate that it was a defect in either the frame casting or the welding as opposed to an environmental factor after it left the factory.  But we'll likely never know for sure unless there is a Kawasaki safety recall in the near future on frame cracks.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: tbanzer on November 26, 2018, 09:44:35 am
As I've already said the bike has never been hauled on the center stand. Been hauled twice in it's life,first when purchased and second when taken to the dealership for these repairs. Both times restrained with no stands down and was using the Canyon Dancer System to secure the bike.
Sorry I though you bought the bike used.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: lather on November 27, 2018, 09:17:00 am
Sorry I though you bought the bike used.
He did buy it used:
"Bought it with 200 miles on it as a consignment from Plano Kawasaki."
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 07, 2019, 02:29:54 pm
Another Cracked Frame

Concours 2008  28,000 miles.
After an inspection,  i discovered this.
After read this post, IMO this have to be a MAMA Kawa problem

I'm not in USA and here in my country, we don't have Kawa Dealer,
but definitely i have to find the way to replace the frame.

Comments ...



Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: gPink on April 07, 2019, 02:58:12 pm
damn JH.  looks like ebay if you can get someone to ship. good luck.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: route66tc on April 07, 2019, 04:23:17 pm
I'd be sending an email to mama kaw asap.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 05:33:09 pm
Another Cracked Frame

Concours 2008  28,000 miles.
After an inspection,  i discovered this.
After read this post, IMO this have to be a MAMA Kawa problem

I'm not in USA and here in my country, we don't have Kawa Dealer,
but definitely i have to find the way to replace the frame.

Comments ...

ok.... don't start a panic....

your report is on an '08, (NOTE; I modified my response, and it is on the frame, sorry...) and looks like it WAS from some "abuse" of said bracket portion, like a fall, or over stressed/impact situation....

the original post here, WAS a frame issue, and a singular one at that, that had no explanation for it's occurrence... also it was on a 2013 model... not an '08...

so far we have seen no other repeat... and sooner or later, if this did happen to more than one bike... they would have ended up here "asking", (here also includes the actual COG forum, which I am watching daily also...)

so everyone cool out, go back and examine the original post/failure, and let this be something that can be accounted for as "different".....?

so the sky is not falling folks... chill....

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 07, 2019, 05:43:22 pm
ok.... don't start a panic....

your report is on an '08, and it isn't the "Main Frame", it's a bracket...kick stand bracket to clarify... and a replaceable part... not like a completed frame... and looks like it WAS from some "abuse" of said bracket, like a fall, or over stressed/impact situation....

the original post here, WAS a frame issue, and a singular one at that, that had no explanation for it's occurrence... also it was on a 2013 model... not an '08...

so far we have seen no other repeat... and sooner or later, if this did happen to more than one bike... they would have ended up here "asking", (here also includes the actual COG forum, which I am watching daily also...)

so everyone cool out, go back and examine the original post/failure, and let this be something that can be accounted for as "different".....

so the sky is not falling folks... chill....


Sorry, but that part has no bracket at all
Is the frame
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 05:45:57 pm

Sorry, but that part has no bracket at all
Is the frame

yes... I corrected my post, sorry...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Freddy on April 07, 2019, 05:47:35 pm
What's the p/n of the failed part MOB?  Answered above I now see.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: route66tc on April 07, 2019, 05:55:13 pm
My only reason for contacting mama kaw is to see if they would pay for it, not because it's the tip of the iceberg kind of thing.  Hopefully the kaw rep that deals with it would decide to cover it as a "policy adjustment".  They may or may not pay, but if'n that was mine, I wouldn't hesitate to ask.  Sometimes you get pleasantly surprised.  Also if you don't ask, there is no chance for reimbursement.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 06:06:16 pm
What's the p/n of the failed part MOB?  Answered above I now see.


the actual frame...

BUT....
one thing, and this is the kicker....
is seen in the photos... and cannot be hidden...

the dogbones used there are NOT the factory installed ones... those are aftermarket/home made/whatever....

I hold no credibility that it is on the fault of Kawasaki, of a frame fracture, resulting from a modified suspension "add on"... and for a fact, have always cautioned people about doing them...
semper fi.  caveate emptor....

(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23720.0;attach=30782)

(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23720.0;attach=30778)

(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23720.0;attach=30780)

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 06:15:52 pm
here is the pic from the original issue... note the linkage...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23720.msg296413#msg296413 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23720.msg296413#msg296413)



now that aid, I cannot say for certain, he had not swapped his out for one from another kawasaki model (zx, etc.,) even if it was an OEM, but from a different bike... but I know the last person reporting this '08 breakage does NOT have OEM parts.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on April 07, 2019, 06:30:13 pm
the dogbones used there are NOT the factory installed ones... those are aftermarket/home made/whatever....

Notice this crack, too.  Speculation, but I don't think that would happen in that location from just the frame cracking from fatigue.  It looks more like some type of severe bottoming-out hit?  That could be consistent with being overly-lowered?  Or maybe it is just secondary as the weight shifted and caused other damage.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 06:37:26 pm
actually, from my visual comparison, the ones on the failed bike appear to be significantly shorter than OEM, which would render the bike sitting higher... and during "decompression stroke" of the shock, would render a "slide hammer effect" upon that bracket... kinda as it is seen, being broken "away/down" by that force.

but I can't just go on "visual measurements"... I can however go on "visual deviation of/from OEM parts used"...
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 07, 2019, 07:12:35 pm
Notice this crack, too.  Speculation, but I don't think that would happen in that location from just the frame cracking from fatigue.  It looks more like some type of severe bottoming-out hit?  That could be consistent with being overly-lowered?  Or maybe it is just secondary as the weight shifted and caused other damage.

Sorry again, but that is not a Crack.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 07, 2019, 09:35:27 pm
Something must have severely stressed both of those bikes to break them.

My 2008 took a leap across a four metre ditch and the landing went ... badly. I've since put almost 100K kilometres on it and there is no cracking in the frame.

Notice this crack, too.  Speculation ...

That's a casting mark on the engine case.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on April 08, 2019, 12:09:42 am
That's a casting mark on the engine case.

Ah- fooled me!

Sorry again, but that is not a Crack.

Yep.  Was the bike lowered, raised, or neither?  (Not that it necessarily led to damage, just curious now).
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 08, 2019, 06:37:04 am

Yep.  Was the bike lowered, raised, or neither?  (Not that it necessarily led to damage, just curious now).


Yes, the bike was rised (+30 MM) on 2011, using a Tail Raiser from www.bikefarmMV.de (http://www.bikefarmMV.de)

IMO, That part is weak on that sensible area (hollow) .
Here in my country the roads are not as well as should be, most of the time during our trips we run at 200 - 240 Kms,
that is a lot of streess for that mechanism.


I did not mention this before, I close friend of mine , with a concours 2015 had the same problem last year.

As I said before,  That`s  a MAMA KAWA PROBLEM.

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 08, 2019, 09:03:24 am
Throwing out idea's;
  No argument is intended. Just adding my thoughts about the failure.

I initially thought we had another "type" of failure on this bike, as "this time" the crack (we see in (Post 92) photo 1 & 2) was not on a weld line..  Looking more closely at the photo's I discovered there is a similarity between the 2 failures.
That similarity is a failure at the welds... (See MOB's post #84)

I think; the initial failure was on the left side (Photo 3) at the weld (in the heat effected zone). (photo 3)
             that failure allowed the right side to flex and the result was a (more typical) fatigue failure. (photo 1 &2)
            {NOTE: That (right side) crack probably initiated at the weld, but the majority of that crack is not in the weld area}

I'll agree that the replacement of OEM parts can cause problems and could have contributed to the problem by increasing force at the rocker.       I just don't think the aftermarket Link caused this problem.
I think the problem is the frame construction, not extra force caused by installing Lowering or Raising Links.

Explaining my thinking;  The rocker's arc has not changed.
                 The arc of the rocker is controlled by the shock length / shock travel, not by the length of the Link.                   
                   ie; The rocker cannot travel more or less than the shock length / shock travel will allow.
                  Installing longer or shorter "Links" will effect the arc of the swingarm, not the arc of the rocker..
                   ie; The new Links effected the swingarm. Rocker was operating in it's normal travel range.

 The frame is designed to haul a loaded bike or 2 people for 100,000 miles.
    1 person on a rough road should not cause a frame failure in 28,000 miles.

Bottom line; The frame flexed/failed and it should not have... {even with the after market Links).

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 08, 2019, 03:26:51 pm
sorry
anyone that tells me that this lays on Kawasaki, needs their head examined...

using this?

https://www.bikefarmmv.com/epages/79512538.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/79512538/Products/%22HHLRKA%20GTR%201400%20%2007-%22 (https://www.bikefarmmv.com/epages/79512538.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/79512538/Products/%22HHLRKA%20GTR%201400%20%2007-%22)


better study a bit more about Tetra Link geometry, and understand about how fast forces can exponentially multiply when "simple" dimensional modifications are applied "by a lever", that they were not engineered for....

I still cannot explain the failure on the original '08 that started this whole thread back in time, but I wish some one "good luck" trying to pass this one off to Kaw, with those modified linkages.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 08, 2019, 04:24:11 pm
This is as true today as  affirm  that "Concours Do not drop off the baggages !!!!!
During all these years i have seen several concours baggages  rolling around the roads, except mine and you know why ?????

Because I modified it !!!!!!


Come onnnnnn

Don't you rememenber the kawasaki recall (2008) about  Replacement rear carrier platform !!!!!!
it break !!!!!!!!

Not mine and you khow  why ???????????    Because I modified it, before Kawasaki recall

What about the oil plug carter position, I replace mine with 2009 model, Ohhhh my goood, coud  i damage the engine !!!!!!! 

I'm not a beginners and I haved installed in at least half dozen motorcycle, tail raiser, replace rear shock  without any problem as many people do !!!!!!!

That is not the problem !!!!

You can bet !!!!!






Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 08, 2019, 05:09:04 pm
JhVenezuela, did your friends 2015 also have tail raiser Links, or did it have stock links?
                    do you know ao any other bikes that have had this failure?
                    How tall are you and friend? {why did you raise the rear of the bike}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 08, 2019, 05:16:12 pm
JhVenezuela, did your friends 2015 also have tail raiser Links, or did it have stock links?
                    do you know ao any other bikes that have had this failure?
                    How tall are you and friend? {why did you raise the rear of the bike}

Ride safe, Ted

No, he did not have raiser links on his bike.
I'm 6'4 and  230 pound.
Raising the bike i feel more confortable on it, specially my knesss.

my fried is arrond 5'8 or 6







Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: blue72beetle on April 08, 2019, 05:22:53 pm
Trailered on the centerstand?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 08, 2019, 05:25:32 pm
Trailered on the centerstand?

Nop. Never.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 08, 2019, 05:37:14 pm

EDITED by request:

so, the original reported failure was here in USA, on a 2013, with no height modifications.

then, the second report is your 2008, with links to raise the bike. Located in Venezuela.

then, a friend of yours, again in Venezuela, with a 2015, and no height mods, has had the same failure, relayed to us.
(which seems very strange, to have 2 failures, on bikes from people that actually know each other).

What was the outcome/and follow up, with regards to your friend's bike getting repaired, as I would assume Kawasaki was contacted by him, being such a new bike?

the original reported bike was completely repaired by Kawasaki.

I suggest you, and your friend, contact Kawasaki, and fully report your issues..
and have them discuss it with you. Without owners reporting issues like this directly to them, there is little Kawasaki can or will do with regards to any of this. We cannot do it for you.

I apologize for appearing rude with regard to your report.

best of luck.

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: zrx mitch on April 08, 2019, 06:39:46 pm
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 09, 2019, 10:14:48 am
Another tip !!!!!!

I did not mention this before, but i have 2 Concours 14, 2008

The other one, a gray one, have 45K Miles with the same "Tail  raiser" and
another Shock (Ohlins)   since 2001 installed, the frame is in perfect condition,
maybe require an expert inspection.
After alll, i'm just a simple "ENGINEER", not a "GURU" !!!!!!!!!

But thinking about this problem, I have a final conclusion.

I was wrong, the problem is not because a "Inconsistent Frame", the real
cause in the Color !!!!!!
Both bikes are GREEN !!!!!

How could not seen these before,  My fiend have a 2015 Lime green and I
painted the bike on 2014.
 
Incredible or not ????

Enjoy the day !!!!!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 09, 2019, 11:53:54 am
Jh, I think you figured it out. Definitely the color.

MOB convinced me that the Tail Raiser adds stress to the frame, but I still think there is a problem with the weld area too.
I suspect it's borderline on strength; then add Tail raiser, rough roads, rider weight, speed etc,,, and it failed.

I'll also agree that Kawasaki wouldn't help you if they saw the tail Raisers installed.
Because; {regardless of them causing or not causing the issue} Kawasaki (or any Dealer) would say that was what caused the failure.

I haven't heard of anyone in COG installing Tail Raisers, but many install a taller rear tire.
So, when you get another frame, consider installing a 190-55 tire instead of the stock 190-50 tire {as it raises the rear a bit} and see if that "bit" is enough rise for you.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Another question. How much preload is dialed into your rear shock spring?
                                 Have you set the sag?



Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 09, 2019, 12:51:49 pm
Jh, I think you figured it out. Definitely the color.

MOB convinced me that the Tail Raiser adds stress to the frame, but I still think there is a problem with the weld area too.
I suspect it's borderline on strength; then add Tail raiser, rough roads, rider weight, speed etc,,, and it failed.

I'll also agree that Kawasaki wouldn't help you if they saw the tail Raisers installed.
Because; {regardless of them causing or not causing the issue} Kawasaki (or any Dealer) would say that was what caused the failure.

I haven't heard of anyone in COG installing Tail Raisers, but many install a taller rear tire.
So, when you get another frame, consider installing a 190-55 tire instead of the stock 190-50 tire {as it raises the rear a bit} and see if that "bit" is enough rise for you.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Another question. How much preload is dialed into your rear shock spring?
                                 Have you set the sag?

As i listened in tv series .... "everything he says will be used against him"

I'm using now a 190-55 Pirelli
About the rear shock  setting, I usually use a Hard adjustment on it, because is better at high speed




I'm using now a Pirelli 190-55
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 09, 2019, 03:59:56 pm
A friend sent me info on a early ZX-14 recall.
Problem was very similar to your break.

http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf (http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf)

Bottom of page 1 sez;
On some eligible units, the engine mount adjusting collar(s) may be over-tightened at factory, creating excessive stress on weld bead on sides of lower cross pipe of frame. With this condition, if high load is applied in such a way that motorcycle is operated on rough road surfaces or through the potholes, the weld bead on lower cross pipe of frame could crack. Continued use can cause separation of frame, resulting in potential of a crash.

Image on page 6 shows similar crack.

Ride safe, Ted
 
 
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 09, 2019, 04:20:28 pm
A friend sent me info on a early ZX-14 recall.
Problem was very similar to your break.

[url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url] ([url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url])

Bottom of page 1 sez;
On some eligible units, the engine mount adjusting collar(s) may be over-tightened at factory, creating excessive stress on weld bead on sides of lower cross pipe of frame. With this condition, if high load is applied in such a way that motorcycle is operated on rough road surfaces or through the potholes, the weld bead on lower cross pipe of frame could crack. Continued use can cause separation of frame, resulting in potential of a crash.

Image on page 6 shows similar crack.

Ride safe, Ted


Thanks !!!!!   
undoubtedly is a very similar case.
It help me a lot.  My brother live in USA and he is helping me with this.
You know, I can buy a frame at ebay for $300 but the problem here in my country is the serial number.
is different with a brand new frame.
Thanks again for your help.

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 09, 2019, 06:53:29 pm
A friend sent me info on a early ZX-14 recall.
Problem was very similar to your break.

[url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url] ([url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url])

Bottom of page 1 sez;
On some eligible units, the engine mount adjusting collar(s) may be over-tightened at factory, creating excessive stress on weld bead on sides of lower cross pipe of frame. With this condition, if high load is applied in such a way that motorcycle is operated on rough road surfaces or through the potholes, the weld bead on lower cross pipe of frame could crack. Continued use can cause separation of frame, resulting in potential of a crash.

Image on page 6 shows similar crack.

Ride safe, Ted


Now things make sense. I stripped a 2010 last week and I was surprised by the amount of effort it took to loosen that adjuster, given that everything else on the bike undid easily. Probably wouldn't be hard to overtighten one at all.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 10, 2019, 06:51:53 am
I'm not quite ready to say his was overtightened.
I'm just saying the two are related.
My point is; that area of the frame has failed there before.

He has rough roads, speed, heavy rider, and Tail Raisers.
    (I believe MOB is correct that the Risers increase stress to that area of the frame)
I feel the frame design may be borderline on strength, or maybe the weld on his bike was not quite up to par.

So, my thought is the combination caused the failure...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Freddy on April 10, 2019, 06:54:42 am
Having read thru this thread and the ZX14 service bulletin I decided to check my bike today.  I note that the torque on the adjusting collar stated in the bulletin is 15N-m.  This is down from 25N-m in the FSM.  I had the engine out of this bike 2 years ago and followed the FSM torque specs upon reassembly. 

I marked the position of the head of the lower eng mount bolt before I removed the nut on the left side, ensuring that the bolt did not move.  I marked it at the 6 o'clock position.  I then followed the procedure detailed on page 7 of the ZX bulletin.  The head of the bolt finished as shown below when torqued to the lower spec.  Very interesting!  The frame is now less stressed in the weld area.

(https://i.imgur.com/kDTijmQ.jpg)

Crappy photo but you get the idea.

The torqueing procedure requires the eng mount bolt to be turned to the left (undo).  This screws the adjusting collar out of the engine case, forcing the eng to the left side because the head of the collar is now tight against the inside face of the frame on the right side.  To state the obvious - turning the head of the eng bolt turns the adjusting collar as it's 'locked' into it. 

I didn't check the upper adjusting collar as I have T-Rex bars fitted, plus that's not where the point of potential failure is. 

I examined the suspect area thoroughly and found no sign of cracking before starting..

Hi Daisy   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 10, 2019, 03:33:12 pm
A friend sent me info on a early ZX-14 recall.
Problem was very similar to your break.

[url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url] ([url]http://kawasaki.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZX1400-FRAME-RECALL.pdf[/url])

Bottom of page 1 sez;
On some eligible units, the engine mount adjusting collar(s) may be over-tightened at factory, creating excessive stress on weld bead on sides of lower cross pipe of frame. With this condition, if high load is applied in such a way that motorcycle is operated on rough road surfaces or through the potholes, the weld bead on lower cross pipe of frame could crack. Continued use can cause separation of frame, resulting in potential of a crash.

Image on page 6 shows similar crack.

Ride safe, Ted


WELL THAT'S PRETTY SHOCKING....
Thanks for that link/info....

 :yikes: :yikes: :hail: :hail: :goodpost: :goodpost: :thumbs: :salute: :salute:

so far they have not added this to all the rest of the recalls for the ZG1400 Concours

http://www.arfc.org/motorcycles/kawasaki/concours_14/recalls.aspx (http://www.arfc.org/motorcycles/kawasaki/concours_14/recalls.aspx)

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 16, 2019, 08:04:58 am
I'm not quite ready to say his was overtightened.
I'm just saying the two are related.
My point is; that area of the frame has failed there before.

He has rough roads, speed, heavy rider, and Tail Raisers.
    (I believe MOB is correct that the Risers increase stress to that area of the frame)
I feel the frame design may be borderline on strength, or maybe the weld on his bike was not quite up to par.

So, my thought is the combination caused the failure...

Ride safe, Ted
I'm ready to say overtightened. I have two frames where the adjusters were a lot harder to undo than they should have been. And lookee what I found. Maybe I should have looked harder the first time.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 16, 2019, 08:33:48 am
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 16, 2019, 03:16:47 pm
I'm ready to say overtightened. I have two frames where the adjusters were a lot harder to undo than they should have been. And lookee what I found. Maybe I should have looked harder the first time.

Im curious why you mentioned the above; did you disassemble and reassemble those 2 bikes?

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :banghead: :doh: :doh:

well, I have to apologize again, and say my popcorn tastes like 'crow'...

I'll be checking mine out also, during my oil change this week...

bummer....
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on April 16, 2019, 03:32:12 pm
I'm ready to say overtightened. I have two frames where the adjusters were a lot harder to undo than they should have been. And lookee what I found. Maybe I should have looked harder the first time.

Wow!  I am glad you checked...

Now I am really wondering if that recall from the ZX shouldn't absolutely apply to the Concours as well.  What year/mileage is that photo?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: JhVenezuela on April 16, 2019, 04:49:02 pm
I'm pretty sure that all of us in this forum, have the real intention of
help each other to solve the problems around ours Concours, as well,
to prevent posible inconveniences.

to be honest I have to say that in all these years I have learn a lot trough
all yours post and yours comments.

As far you allow me, i will continue bother here as frequently as possible
and you will have to tolerate my "Terrible english too" .  ;D
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 16, 2019, 07:12:21 pm
Im curious why you mentioned the above; did you disassemble and reassemble those 2 bikes?

I bought a crashed gen 2 - lowside, smashed all the front plastic - for the forks. My 08 has done over 170,000km and the crashed one only 40,000. I decided to swap everything into the 08 so I could have traction control and stuff. On Monday we dropped the motor out of the 08 and found the crack. Luckily it hasn't gone all the way around and we've sent it out to be re-welded. Then I will only tighten the collars to 15nm.

I can't use the undamaged gen 2 frame because it was registered in the state of New South Wales and anything written off there can never be re-registered in Australia. That is both a waste and really, really annoying.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MtnRider on April 16, 2019, 08:23:26 pm
Yeah, that really sucks! Good luck with the rebuild. Good catch on the frame crack, too.

Leo
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 16, 2019, 10:01:21 pm
POST REMOVED;
NO LONGER IN CONTACT WITH KAW.

sorry,
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 17, 2019, 12:47:26 am
I truly hope you see and understand the dilemma I have with making all these claims to Kawasaki corp, based on all of the variables I am supplied with. If I go to them, and throw this down, and each incident had "issues" as you now describe,(crashed, dropped, i dunno, aftermarket suspension in stalled.. blahh etc.,) it would hold no credit-ability on my part, as I have not seen/owned/touched/examined each and every one of them.. crashed bikes? and now bad frame? I cannot present pristine examples of failures based on any of this..

I wouldn't even bother taking mine to Kawasaki. I bought it secondhand, 7 years old with 60,000km and no history. Then I crashed it. The damage was all bodywork and a string line said it was still straight, so the engine was never removed. Until this thread I never even knew there was an issue with cracking welds. I have ridden it for 3 years and nearly a hundred thousand kilometres since the accident and for all I know, that crack has been there the whole time. I do know that it isn't fresh because there is no clean metal.

I will have it repaired and make sure the collars are not overtightened when I reassemble it. Then I will check on a regular basis to make sure it doesn't crack again.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 17, 2019, 06:17:43 am
I truly hope you see and understand the dilemma I have with making all these claims to Kawasaki corp, based on all of the variables I am supplied with. If I go to them, and throw this down, and each incident had "issues" as you now describe,(crashed, dropped, i dunno, aftermarket suspension in stalled.. blahh etc.,) it would hold no credit-ability on my part, as I have not seen/owned/touched/examined each and every one of them.. crashed bikes? and now bad frame? I cannot present pristine examples of failures based on any of this..

I truly want to make sure we are all covered for the multi thousand dollars we have spent on this bike.. but when it's all on the same page, and EVERY thing is truthfully written up, like a letter, which I intend to read to Kawasaki... don't make me look like a fool.. as if anything is missing, anything at all... you all will be the responsible parties that made my credit-ability with this company worthless.

for the last 12 years, I have endeavored to preclude many issues, and persevered in that "hidden" task... this by far is the most demanding one I will pursue. and mind you, I will do it. but just don't make me look like an ass when I do.

everyone involved with broken frames, p/m me with your email, name, address, and also your vehicle VIN number.. also, if it was bought as a "used bike", everything you know about its past.. anything regarding any services done, which may include some sort of descriptions to "engine/frame" removal, and or replacements and adjustments, all apply also.

you want it.. I'll do it.. but DO NOT LIE to me.


over.


You know, and this is just an observation, if you want people to help get this issue up to Kawasaki Corporate, there's better ways to ask for this information than what you just did in print above. 
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Conrad on April 17, 2019, 06:21:19 am
I truly hope you see and understand the dilemma I have with making all these claims to Kawasaki corp, based on all of the variables I am supplied with. If I go to them, and throw this down, and each incident had "issues" as you now describe,(crashed, dropped, i dunno, aftermarket suspension in stalled.. blahh etc.,) it would hold no credit-ability on my part, as I have not seen/owned/touched/examined each and every one of them.. crashed bikes? and now bad frame? I cannot present pristine examples of failures based on any of this..

I truly want to make sure we are all covered for the multi thousand dollars we have spent on this bike.. but when it's all on the same page, and EVERY thing is truthfully written up, like a letter, which I intend to read to Kawasaki... don't make me look like a fool.. as if anything is missing, anything at all... you all will be the responsible parties that made my credit-ability with this company worthless.

for the last 12 years, I have endeavored to preclude many issues, and persevered in that "hidden" task... this by far is the most demanding one I will pursue. and mind you, I will do it. but just don't make me look like an ass when I do.

everyone involved with broken frames, p/m me with your email, name, address, and also your vehicle VIN number.. also, if it was bought as a "used bike", everything you know about its past.. anything regarding any services done, which may include some sort of descriptions to "engine/frame" removal, and or replacements and adjustments, all apply also.

you want it.. I'll do it.. but DO NOT LIE to me.


over.

I must be missing something? How is it that you feel that this issue falls on you and that it's your responsibility to bring all of this to Kawasaki?
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 17, 2019, 08:04:01 am
I can't use the undamaged gen 2 frame because it was registered in the state of New South Wales and anything written off there can never be re-registered in Australia. That is both a waste and really, really annoying.

Would it be possible to cut the number area out of the bad frame and weld it into the good frame?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 17, 2019, 08:21:55 am
Here is a thought;
The cracked frames that have been discussed, may be isolated cases.
          We have a lot of C-14 owners on the Forums.
        Let's use the Forum's and see if this is a widespread problem.

             I suggest that all you who read this discussion, "go inspect your frame".
             Report back here with what you find.
             ie; Tell us if it's Good/bad, miles, and the year of your bike.

             I checked mine.
                    Looks fine. 14,000 miles, 2014..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: fartymarty on April 17, 2019, 08:28:23 am
I must be missing something? How is it that you feel that this issue falls on you and that it's your responsibility to bring all of this to Kawasaki?

It's self importan appointed thing. You probably don't know this Mr. C, but he used to be the tech editor- engineer- PIC .....etc. So don't you
dare lie to him or make him look like an ass.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MtnRider on April 17, 2019, 08:37:52 am
I can't use the undamaged gen 2 frame because it was registered in the state of New South Wales and anything written off there can never be re-registered in Australia. That is both a waste and really, really annoying.

Would it be possible to cut the number area out of the bad frame and weld it into the good frame?

Ride safe, Ted

Jeeze, Ted....   I was thinking the same thing last night.   :o  But I had a couple and wasn't sure I should post it. What where you having?     :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 17, 2019, 09:26:41 am
I can't use the undamaged gen 2 frame because it was registered in the state of New South Wales and anything written off there can never be re-registered in Australia. That is both a waste and really, really annoying.

Would it be possible to cut the number area out of the bad frame and weld it into the good frame?

Ride safe, Ted

Short answer: No. That would be "rebirthing" - highly illegal and the reason given by the authorities for making everything a statutory writeoff.

Long answer: The number is engraved/etched/stamped on the side of the headstock. Interfering with it would be obvious even to blind freddy and cutting and welding it into another frame would be a big job. You'd have to be a really good welder to replicate the factory welds too. If I sold it or it was involved in an accident and anybody looked closely ... see the short answer.

The old way was to buy a crashed vehicle cheaply and transfer the identity onto a stolen one. So the gumbyment introduced all sorts of checks - with fees of course - to show proof of where you got the parts to fix your crashed one. I rebuilt several myself under that system and thought it worked fine, at least until the vultures doing the inspections had a cash grab and it suddenly cost more in fees than actual repairs.
I don't know how the 'criminal gangs' were still rebirthing, but New South Wales went it alone and decided that you could no longer repair anything and put it back on the road. Because the VIN is on a national register it can never be used again in Australia.
I also have a perfect frame from a 2016 Honda CBR300R. It could have been repaired with second hand parts for a few hundred dollars. Bent levers and scratches and some cracked plastic. But because NSW it can only ever be spare parts. Except the frame - because that is the bit with the ID on it. I bought it for the engine, but having to throw the rest away is such a waste.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 17, 2019, 09:45:53 am
That is a shame.  :censored:

I've never attempted to do as I suggested on a bike frame, but thought it might be possible.
(in our dirt bike days) I heard of others that did a similar plate movement on mufflers so they sed "Forestry Approved".  :o

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 17, 2019, 10:50:54 am
As ya'll may or may not know/remember, there is a number for Kawasaki customer service (US).  Not sure if it's still active or not or changed.  Assuming it is, I would report the cracked frame to that number and get a case number if one is offered.


Kawasaki customer service number (949)-770-0400 then 1, then 5
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 17, 2019, 02:26:57 pm
Here is a thought;
The cracked frames that have been discussed, may be isolated cases.
          We have a lot of C-14 owners on the Forums.
        Let's use the Forum's and see if this is a widespread problem.

             I suggest that all you who read this discussion, "go inspect your frame".
             Report back here with what you find.
             ie; Tell us if it's Good/bad, miles, and the year of your bike.

             I checked mine.
                    Looks fine. 14,000 miles, 2014..

Ride safe, Ted

Does anyone else have a cracked frame?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 17, 2019, 03:20:27 pm
POST REMOVED;
NO LONGER IN CONTACT WITH KAW.

sorry,
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 17, 2019, 05:20:14 pm
Here is a thought;
The cracked frames that have been discussed, may be isolated cases.
          We have a lot of C-14 owners on the Forums.
        Let's use the Forum's and see if this is a widespread problem.

             I suggest that all you who read this discussion, "go inspect your frame".
             Report back here with what you find.
             ie; Tell us if it's Good/bad, miles, and the year of your bike.

             I checked mine.
                    Looks fine. 14,000 miles, 2014..

Ride safe, Ted


thanks for posting this over there Ted, I was not gonna spread the panic until I saw a bit of response here...
but it's cool...

http://forum.cog-online.org/tires-suspension-c14/cracked-frame-at-shock/msg666102/#msg666102 (http://forum.cog-online.org/tires-suspension-c14/cracked-frame-at-shock/msg666102/#msg666102)

we ALL are of the same community, and therefore need to be "semper fi" on what we find.

this is how to do it, and make a voice about the bike you paid so much money for... if we don't document, it's all lost.

good job Ted,  :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :grouphug: :grouphug: :thumbs: :salute:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 17, 2019, 06:48:46 pm
My frame came home this morning. A little cleanup and some black paint, nobody will know it was broken.

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MtnRider on April 17, 2019, 07:24:06 pm
Good luck with the rebuild, Michelle.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on April 17, 2019, 08:06:54 pm
My frame came home this morning. A little cleanup and some black paint, nobody will know it was broken.

Wow- that is one big-ass weld!
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 17, 2019, 08:12:22 pm
Even though it wasn't cracked all the way around, he ground it out and re-did the whole thing. I are impressed.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: maxtog on April 17, 2019, 09:01:04 pm
I are impressed.

Me is be too :)
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: connie_rider on April 18, 2019, 06:38:17 am
Looks good.
Before you put it back together, Maybe remove some paint? and give the other side a really good inspection.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 18, 2019, 12:25:11 pm
Well, sorry to report that my direct contacts are no longer effective.
I did however, send some e-mails, to the sources, and only 1 of 3 bounced, so If I get a callback I will speak to the "new" reps if the door is still open...

Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Freddy on April 18, 2019, 05:03:49 pm
 :goodpost: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: Michelle on April 18, 2019, 05:59:16 pm
Looks good.
Before you put it back together, Maybe remove some paint? and give the other side a really good inspection.

Ride safe, Ted

I would expect that if the other side were letting go the paint would crack first? I suspect that the left side goes first because the weld is diagonal and then the shock absorber hammers the one on the right side. Mine was still in one piece as the crack hadn't yet found its own tail. I have closely inspected the right side and it doesn't show any sign of stress. I will be keeping an eye on it into the future.
Title: Re: Cracked frame at shock
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 19, 2019, 07:47:21 am
One should also report this via NHTSA website


https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/ (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/)