Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: mvjr1904 on April 06, 2019, 10:31:40 am

Title: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: mvjr1904 on April 06, 2019, 10:31:40 am
Don't know what went wrong.  I'm no certified mechanic but I think I know how to swap out a battery. I've done it numerous times for maintenance and to connect my battery tender wiring with no issues.  My bike had been sitting and not turned on for several days so I figure it's a good time to swap out the battery.  Attempted to install my new battery, final step connect the "Neg" cable to the frame with the screw.

At this point significant sparking occurs, the screw got extremely hot (I had to quickly let it go) and the "Pos" cable starts to smoke. Removed the battery, reinspected everything.  All looked good, reinstalled battery, same sparking happens.  More smoke, bare wires now visible thru the protective coating on the wire.  At this point I need to replace the "Pos" cable.

Racking my brain on why and don't know why this is happening.  Any advise??


 
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Tree on April 06, 2019, 11:10:12 am
New battery?  Put the battery on a tester.  I suspect all of your "new" problems stem from that, if the battery is new that is.  While the battery is out then check continuity of the positive cable to the frame.  Any more "testing" of that battery will damage it and your electrical system more if there is a short circuit somewhere.

I feel that I need to add a disclaimer and say don't listen to a damn thing I say.  Considering what I have done to my Connie's electrical system in the past.  And the silly thing still runs!
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: maxtog on April 06, 2019, 01:03:44 pm
I would guess that somehow you have a short in your wiring.  To cause sparks and enough heat to melt the cable lining indicates all the current was flowing with no resistance at all.  Test the resistance between the two cables (as suggested) and from positive to frame, if you have no resistance, then do NOT try reconnecting the battery until you can locate the short.

Perhaps over time one of the cables has chaffed and has grounded itself to the frame?  I don't envy your situation because trying to find a short like that is probably not going to be easy.   Since you didn't have the problem UNTIL you replaced the battery, it is likely that the short is near the battery area.

 :(
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 06, 2019, 02:32:01 pm
so I figure it's a good time to swap out the battery.  Attempted to install my new battery, final step connect the "Neg" cable to the frame with the screw.

.....
Racking my brain on why and don't know why this is happening.  Any advise??

just tossing a wild guess... but seeing as these batteries do come in Left and Right Positive cable lug variations... are you sure the "new" one is identical to the "old one"..?  and was not overlooked, and installed by "force of habit/mere memory" on the direction it went in...?

check... is there an L in the number? XXX14L
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: mvjr1904 on April 06, 2019, 03:27:43 pm
Thank you Forum for all the possible "cures".  New battery from the dealer - Yuasa YTX4-BS. Polarity the same as removed battery.
I failed to mention, I reinstalled the old battery to "start over" and the same sparking and smoldering wires occurred.
So.... from the responses submit, I guess I'll have to look at the wiring.

I'll keep you all updated.  Its a Silver 2011 C14 with 39,561 miles. Maybe its time to repair then upgrade. What are the 2019 colors...... just saying......
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: maxtog on April 06, 2019, 04:50:44 pm
Its a Silver 2011 C14 with 39,561 miles.


Almost exactly the same here.

Quote
Maybe its time to repair then upgrade.


Nah

Quote
What are the 2019 colors...... just saying......


Frankenstein  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20250.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20250.0)
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 06, 2019, 05:07:42 pm
This is very perplexing, especially knowing the wireing, and connections/components from a professional standpoint.
It would take something like a "FOREIGN OBJECT" laying across the terminations at the Main relay (that sits next to the battery", to create a short of the magnitude to actually "melt" a battery cable when it's "connected", like you are explaining. Any secondary circuits are all "cut off" from seeing "current", by that relay.. so only a dead short of that component could cause this. All of the secondary wires, everywhere else on the bike, are small enough to "go poof", and immediately vaporize, when shorted.

Start looking at that relay and base it plugs into, and see if there is a "stray metal object" in there that is causing this short circuit..., a wrench, socket, something substantial that can bear the current to allow the battery cable to "melt".
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: tweeter55 on April 06, 2019, 05:19:36 pm
I don’t know the routing of the cables but it seems to me trouble started when the negative cable was attached, completing the circuit. Knowing that I would look at the positive cable and maybe some chafing occurred during the process of changing out the battery. Just my $.02 worth.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 06, 2019, 06:01:54 pm
ok.

so, if you are not familiar with the wires, and the protective means they are routed in
the attached photo should 'splain a bit more..
disavow the black, and red 10awg wires I have in the photo, that run remotely... they run to my remote fuse box... the "main" power cables run to a frame ground(to the right), and around the battery directly to the Main Relay block(to the left)... very little (if anything, that will melt a batt cable) other than what I mentioned, could be the culprit.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Conrad on April 07, 2019, 07:27:20 am
I searched for a Yuasa YTX4-BS battery online but I couldn't find that exact model number. What I did find was a Yuasa YTX4L-BS

If you're using a YTX4L-BS then I think that I know what your issue is.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ylIAAOSwTZtZogsA/s-l500.jpg)

(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24035.0;attach=30775;image)
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: route66tc on April 07, 2019, 08:22:08 am
I searched for a Yuasa YTX4-BS battery online but I couldn't find that exact model number. What I did find was a Yuasa YTX4L-BS

If you're using a YTX4L-BS then I think that I know what your issue is.

([url]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ylIAAOSwTZtZogsA/s-l500.jpg[/url])

([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24035.0;attach=30775;image[/url])

The OP doesn't mention changing out the battery because it was faulty, only because it had not been "turned on".  So I'm gonna assume that there weren't smoking, melting wires and sparks flying before it was touched.  All is well until he swapped the battery.  Last thing touched right?  The insulation on battery cables is pretty substantial, so I'm ruling out that it was chafed during install.  You have to do something pretty wrong to get the display he got when completing the circuit.  I am no electrical whizz for sure, but I think it was hooked up backwards as Conrad is gently hinting at.  Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.  I really hope he didn't roast something costly.  Good luck feller!
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 03:32:01 pm
The OP doesn't mention changing out the battery because it was faulty, only because it had not been "turned on".  So I'm gonna assume that there weren't smoking, melting wires and sparks flying before it was touched.  All is well until he swapped the battery.  Last thing touched right?  The insulation on battery cables is pretty substantial, so I'm ruling out that it was chafed during install.  You have to do something pretty wrong to get the display he got when completing the circuit.  I am no electrical whizz for sure, but I think it was hooked up backwards as Conrad is gently hinting at.  Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.  I really hope he didn't roast something costly.  Good luck feller!

well, now we have numerous "weird" things....

stock battery "SIZE/RATING" conforms to a commonly available YTX14-BS "package/rating"

not YTX4, L, BS, or anything... that can't be the battery... simply too small...

BM Part #:   YTX4L-BS
Voltage:   12 Volt
Capacity:   3 Ah
Type:   AGM
Length:   4.5"
Width:   2.81"
Height:   3.38"
Cold Cranking Amps:   50 CCA
Shipping Weight:   5.00Lbs

size comparison, and polarity
YTX14BS
(https://www.batterymart.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/YTX14AH-BS-BatteryMart_fullsize_1000x1000.jpg)

YTX14 L BS

(https://www.batterymart.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/MOSM62H4L_YTX14AHL-BS_1000x1000.jpg)

size reference


BM Part #:   YTX14AH-BS
Voltage:   12 Volt
Capacity:   12 ah
Type:   AGM
Length:   5.24"
Width:   3.50"
Height:   6.54"
Cold Cranking Amps:   180 CCA
Shipping Weight:   10.40Lbs

as I said before, the battery attaches to the main relay....4 inches behind it... via an 8 to 10 inch long cable...with the bike "turned off" that is the extent of where current, from the battery, thru the cables, can travel to. Period.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: gPink on April 07, 2019, 03:54:36 pm
Maybe the op would be kind enough post a picture of his battery compartment as it is right now, like the one MOB posted. Along with a pic of his battery.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: route66tc on April 07, 2019, 04:17:39 pm
Can a defective battery with an internal short create the same symptoms?  If the battery were hooked up backwards, what can he expect when it's hooked up properly?
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 07, 2019, 04:56:13 pm
Maybe the op would be kind enough post a picture of his battery compartment as it is right now, like the one MOB posted. Along with a pic of his battery.

that would go a long way to help, for sure, especially identifying/showing the actual wires, and points where "the smoke came out/was released"....(sorry, just a little electrical joke about "the magic smoke")  but pictures would help greatly....




Can a defective battery with an internal short create the same symptoms?  If the battery were hooked up backwards, what can he expect when it's hooked up properly?

well, short answer, no, the occurrence with an internally shorted battery would not result in that; when a battery shorts "inside" it basically removes the capacity for "full voltage" at the point of the short; There are 6 sets of plates,each supplying approximately 2 volts (=/- a % of that), if a short occurs between the first and second set, the output volts will be like 9-10v, or 2-3v, depending on which end of the stack it occurs to.   If a battery is installed in THIS bike, as long as the ignition is off, minimal sparking will occur at any terminal... and when attempting to start the bike after, it will not start. Removing the battery, and replacing it correctly, works fine; or so we have seen by the numerous reports on THIS BIKE when they have been incorrectly installed (was very common a few years back, to see this occur even from the dealers... :o ), and so far, after reversing the battery, and connecting it right, no further problems of "catastrophic" damage was found. I guess it's a testament to the robust nature, and safety built into THIS bikes design... or, just plain luck.

Now, if a battery with an internal short, is JUMP STARTED, of forced to take an outside current flow, which it now cannot do because of the short... it COULD blow sky high, and at the least, it will melt down the jumper cable in short order, as its basically like connecting the cable ends, from a running engine sending charging current...

I've had to run outside and put someones "burning" car out with an extinguisher at work, when they attempted jumping a shorted battery... it was pretty impressive to see how fast things "went south"...
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Conrad on April 08, 2019, 06:58:17 am
that would go a long way to help, for sure, especially identifying/showing the actual wires, and points where "the smoke came out/was released"....(sorry, just a little electrical joke about "the magic smoke")  but pictures would help greatly....




well, short answer, no, the occurrence with an internally shorted battery would not result in that; when a battery shorts "inside" it basically removes the capacity for "full voltage" at the point of the short; There are 6 sets of plates,each supplying approximately 2 volts (=/- a % of that), if a short occurs between the first and second set, the output volts will be like 9-10v, or 2-3v, depending on which end of the stack it occurs to.   If a battery is installed in THIS bike, as long as the ignition is off, minimal sparking will occur at any terminal... and when attempting to start the bike after, it will not start. Removing the battery, and replacing it correctly, works fine; or so we have seen by the numerous reports on THIS BIKE when they have been incorrectly installed (was very common a few years back, to see this occur even from the dealers... :o ), and so far, after reversing the battery, and connecting it right, no further problems of "catastrophic" damage was found. I guess it's a testament to the robust nature, and safety built into THIS bikes design... or, just plain luck.

Now, if a battery with an internal short, is JUMP STARTED, of forced to take an outside current flow, which it now cannot do because of the short... it COULD blow sky high, and at the least, it will melt down the jumper cable in short order, as its basically like connecting the cable ends, from a running engine sending charging current...

I've had to run outside and put someones "burning" car out with an extinguisher at work, when they attempted jumping a shorted battery... it was pretty impressive to see how fast things "went south"...

I agree with everything Rich said above. I just wanted to clarify the bolded section, for those who don't know...

There were many instances of batteries being installed backwards by dealers on these bikes. I say INSTALLED backwards, not hooked up electrically backwards. My bike was one of these. The battery cables are just long enough so that the battery can be placed into the battery compartment with the positive terminal facing the inside (left side) of the bike. I found that mine was installed backwards when I brought my brand new bike home and installed a battery tender. 
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: fartymarty on April 08, 2019, 12:04:44 pm

stock battery is a YTX14-BS


AHHHH...no.

You are most likely correct about what would work, but it isn't the OEM "stock" battery. That would be the FTZ14-BS made by Furukawa. Allegedly a 14 AH battery.
I thought we covered this elsewhere, has Furukawa quit supplying the batteries to mama Kaw without telling me? (how dare they!)
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 08, 2019, 02:56:23 pm
AHHHH...no.

You are most likely correct about what would work, but it isn't the OEM "stock" battery. That would be the FTZ14-BS made by Furukawa. Allegedly a 14 AH battery.
I thought we covered this elsewhere, has Furukawa quit supplying the batteries to mama Kaw without telling me? (how dare they!)

thanks, I corrected my description to "fit" my train of thought... when I typed that...
either way, it had to do with size,


Conrad:
there HAVE been a number of people (owners) that have actually installed/replaced the battery reversed, and also the cables...  without immediate detrimental side effects..and of course, it wouldn't start, but when reversed to correct, all was "OK"... not saying the dealers did them all;
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: maxtog on April 08, 2019, 04:15:44 pm
but it isn't the OEM "stock" battery. That would be the FTZ14-BS made by Furukawa. Allegedly a 14 AH battery.  I thought we covered this elsewhere, has Furukawa quit supplying the batteries to mama Kaw without telling me? (how dare they!)

I remember trying to locate the FTZ14-BS at the time my original battery failed several years ago and was unable to locate one (outside the dealer- I wasn't going to pay dealer prices for a battery I could buy anywhere and replace, myself).  I don't know if the dealers can still get them, but I bet not.

The owner's manual does not list the battery model nor specification at all.  The factory service manual specifies an FTZ14-BS @ 14Ah and no alternatives.  The YTX14-BS was supposed to be a direct replacement based on many third-party cross references, although, like you said, it was never a 14Ah, it is a 12Ah which was curious (and perhaps a bit scammy).  I do have a Yuasa YTX14-BS in mine now.  Many non-Yuasa batteries now use the same part number for their "clones", often prefixed with some other misc letters added on for good measure.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 08, 2019, 07:14:46 pm
https://blog.batterysharks.com/what-do-motorcycle-battery-model-names-stand-for/

Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: maxtog on April 08, 2019, 08:55:01 pm
https://blog.batterysharks.com/what-do-motorcycle-battery-model-names-stand-for/

Kewl.    So yeah, all these other vendors are kinda ripping off Yuasa's name/reputation by using their part number (in whole or part).  And the "14" really doesn't mean 14Ah, it is just the series.  All in all, I am not sure losing 2Ah (14%) over OEM is all that important.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Conrad on April 10, 2019, 06:43:26 am
*wondering if we'll ever hear back from the OP*

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Tree on April 23, 2019, 07:23:15 pm
*wondering if we'll ever hear back from the OP*

 :popcorn:

I was thinking the same thing.  I NEED CLOSURE!!!
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 23, 2019, 07:40:14 pm
making popcorn...
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Conrad on April 24, 2019, 07:16:26 am
No replies from the OP. I think that we can all guess why...
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: kzz1king on April 24, 2019, 01:06:41 pm
I can see why. I admitted to a bonehead mistake in the Connie Droppers Anonymous section years ago and it is still on the top! 8) ::)


No replies from the OP. I think that we can all guess why...
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 24, 2019, 06:11:46 pm
lets give him a chance here, it's only been 18 days... I've seen 6 months pass, and the o/p came back asking the same thing he asked in the first place, again, so... make popcorn./

if he comes back, all good.
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: maxtog on April 24, 2019, 06:20:44 pm
lets give him a chance here, it's only been 18 days... I've seen 6 months pass, and the o/p came back asking the same thing he asked in the first place, again, so... make popcorn./

if he comes back, all good.

Indeed.  He has not been active (hasn't visited the site) for 14 days now.  Prior to these posts he was postless for 6 months.  Some people have a life and don't check/post multiple times a day (like me) :)

But...  yeah....    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 24, 2019, 06:33:59 pm
i don't get paid to wipe people's bottoms, nor see it necessary to hound them to give an answer, if they pop in, ask a question, an never come back to absorb.. well, I shut the faucet off. very easy. like putting the toilet seat DOWN, as a man..
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MtnRider on April 24, 2019, 07:01:54 pm
Some people have a life and don't check/post multiple times a day (like me) :)

OH NO!!!!  :yikes:   I don't have a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!    :yikes: :yikes: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 24, 2019, 07:19:49 pm
OH NO!!!!  :yikes:   I don't have a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!    :yikes: :yikes: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
\\we have all discuss it, an nominate you to p/m him.... and ask him wtf...?

mmmm kay....

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0HlTnnZVrHVcmMgM/source.gif)
Title: Re: Tried to replace my C14 battery, then this happened
Post by: Conrad on April 25, 2019, 07:25:19 am
i don't get paid to wipe people's bottoms, nor see it necessary to hound them to give an answer, if they pop in, ask a question, an never come back to absorb.. well, I shut the faucet off. very easy. like putting the toilet seat DOWN, as a man..

M'kay…   ;)