Author Topic: We're doomed!  (Read 12079 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2017, 01:33:45 pm »
So much fun to be had, so little time.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2017, 03:26:10 pm »
Gallagher (the watermelon guy- I used to go see him every year when he was on tour) said that farmers are idiots and do it all wrong. He and his family plant fruits and vegetables in the can and this have a LOT of advantages and no down-side. Want some fresh peas in February? Take a pick and shovel out to the garden and there they are, in single- serving containers, ready to go. No worries about yields, insect damage, drought, the narrow window of harvest and consumption before the items go bad. I tells' ya', his system was flawless IMO.

Many years ago, a friend's wife was commenting on how much more expensive tuna packed in oil was than tuna packed in water and how they were all talking about it at work. Husband explains that the price of oil has skyrocketed (this was during the second oil crunch in the US, maybe 1985 or so?). She understands immediately but man, was she pi$$ed the next day when she came home from work, after explaining to her co- workers why tuna in oil was so expensive.

Last story: I actually got my SIL to leave tuna cans open and sitting on the counter-top to allow the 'excessive amounts' of mercury in tuna to settle to the bottom of the can, and then carefully, and without tipping the can, pick the tuna out with a fork. Fun to watch. Same woman is adamant to this day that we have two 'trash' containers (one 'trash', one recycle materials) just because "they" want to break out chops and get more city workers on two trucks but it all goes into the exact same pile. Seriously, and there is no convincing her.....

And it is stories such as those that prevented me from even considering that a raisin was a dry grape after continued pressure and explanation from my wife and kids. Just like my hero, Homer Simpson, who laughed when told that bacon, ham and pork chops all come from some 'wondrous, magical' animal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BZDZyRaGa8

Brian


Years ago a coworker looked out the window and saw the farmer plowing the field and asked what the farmer grew. i told her pork and beans. She didnt believe me but another guy said we would prove it come harvest time.
So about a month before harvest we buried a can of p and b.
 When the farmer started his harvest we took her out and dug up the can and showed her. She swallowed it like a bluegill swallows a worm.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2017, 03:40:33 pm »
You can get all the fun in (Easy Boys!) Jim, you just have to compress it more. Do not just limit your fun interaction to family, friends and, say, this forum. No, no, invite everyone to share in the whimsy that is life. You would not think so but the police, judges, airline personnel, garbage men and even your customers and / or employer are ready..... nay, ANXIOUS to share in good humor.

Why this one time, crossing the US / Can border (into Canada), with two other motorcycles, when the Canuk border control agent asked if I had any drugs or weapons, I answered 'No', then turned around, pointed to the guy right behind me (a gigantic black guy riding a C-14 also) and said 'He has all the weapons and drugs.'. Now that was a double- header because not only did the Canadian agents find it amusing..... after some more discussion and convincing (OK, maybe that was a tactical error but still....) but Maurice (the object of my pointing) sat straight up in his saddle and was blinded in the headlights. Probably thought I had said something inappropriate to the border agents on his behalf, which of course is exactly what I had done. The Agents actually took that pretty well but when Maurice came to the same Agents, and the male asked the same question he also added 'and please do not make any jokes about this Sir', which was even funnier yet.

Now that does not mean there are not limits: my strong suggestion is NOT to run in an airport for any reason whatsoever. Probably best not to reach under the car seat during an active stop by LEO to get a funny item that is there to amuse them. And so forth.

Brian

P.S. I would not try any of those 'funnies' at all at US border control, dem dare peoples have a stick up their collective butts about a mile long. It might be like the old Grouch Marx show where you say the magic word and a jail sentence drops from the ceiling. And while jail (prison actually for a federal crime) <may> be fun, I think some of the other, extra- curricular activities going on make make the entire experience unpleasant, on balance. Then again, if a 'jail house lawyer' is valuable to convicts, perhaps a 'jail house comedian' could get by?

So much fun to be had, so little time.
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Offline Cholla

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2017, 08:50:02 am »
A friend learned the hard way about taling in an airport.
Got to the TSA group grope and was asked to remove his sandals.
He said, "Yeah, right. Like I have a bomb hidden there" and immediately knew he screwed up. Off to the pokey. Missed his flight, no refund, and a fine.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2017, 10:22:42 am »
A friend learned the hard way about taling in an airport.
Got to the TSA group grope and was asked to remove his sandals.
He said, "Yeah, right. Like I have a bomb hidden there" and immediately knew he screwed up. Off to the pokey. Missed his flight, no refund, and a fine.

Those guys have no sense of humor  :o

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2017, 02:28:35 pm »
Yeah, there are places where one simply cannot do some things anymore. I am not passing judgement because it is extremely difficult to allow freedoms and at the very same time, try to assure safety for the masses, all while some are desperately trying to inflict damage on those masses. So now, any place people gather is coming under vastly increasing scrutiny and new rules of behavior by all officials (those charged with maintaining order and safety on all levels). Places that are hubs of travel, where people gather very densely (and not the CMP kind of density) are even more highly scrutinized. Of course the ultimate spot for traveling and extremely high numbers of people gathered into a <relatively> small space is an airport.

Some years ago a man on board a plane had a panic attack and had to get off the plane (plane was boarding, doors open). He ran off the plane and some distance in the terminal. Of course some LEO yelled at this man to stop, which he did not do (remember, panic attack: no one behaves 'correctly' in that situation so I cannot blame the man running), and was promptly shot. And I do not blame the LEO because by all accounts, he yelled several times for the man to stop and received no response and so took that next step, the only one available to him, and stopped the man directly.

I believe this transcends all political lines, police enforcement opinions and everything else and was simply an extremely unfortunate event that was virtually impossible to prevent, and yet no one did anything wrong, at least as I read the story.

The really and truly bad part of this is, for all of us (people in the western world where security is tightening rapidly) is that it is going to get worse. More scrutiny, more 'rules', more screening and no doubt, more incidents. No way around it that I can see.

Brian

A friend learned the hard way about taling in an airport.
Got to the TSA group grope and was asked to remove his sandals.
He said, "Yeah, right. Like I have a bomb hidden there" and immediately knew he screwed up. Off to the pokey. Missed his flight, no refund, and a fine.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 12:16:58 pm by B.D.F. »
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Offline jimmymac

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2017, 03:29:24 pm »
It just slays me that one guy puts a firecracker in his pennyloafers, and everyone has to take off their shoes.   >:(
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2017, 04:01:56 pm »
It just slays me that one guy puts a firecracker in his pennyloafers, and everyone has to take off their shoes.   >:(


Security "theater."  It is the ILLUSION of security.  We have be forced to give up our rights to privacy, to be free of harassment, to not be tracked, to come and go as we please, to have rapid transport, of keeping our hard-earned money, for the FEELING of being secure.  I don't think it is worth it EVEN IF IT WORKED.... but the reality is shown in study after study which shows that airport security does almost nothing to stop actual threats.

One of many examples:  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-tsa-airport-security-charade-20150608-story.html
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2017, 05:09:47 pm »
Ah, the 'A- team' argument. So what would you have us do Max, nothing more than what was done pre- 911? That is not only political suicide but frankly, reckless.

Would you NOT increase security in our airports? Or would you have the occasional air liner fall out of the sky as a fireball?

Please understand I am not throwing rocks at that position but you have to take responsibility IF that is your position. We have to make a choice, and cannot stand dumb and deaf to reality, so the choices are 1) do something, with all the wrongs and faults of that or 2) do nothing, and allow others to determine the course of our future.

The easy thing is always to complain and find fault in the current situation or others' behavior but what would YOU suggest as an alternative? No scans at US airports? Allowing passengers in the us, or flying to the US, to freely board planes w/out searches or increased security?

If you know of a way to balance security with freedom in a better way, please do not hold it as a secret, share it freely and allow us all to benefit.

So, would you remove airport security? Would you reduce it? Would you 'fall back' to 1960 levels?

Security is as much a pretense as it is a reality. Removing or substantially reducing security in any area is nothing but an invitation for those seeking to do harm to select that [lower / no security] area for attack. England used to be a relatively unarmed country, all the way to law enforcement officers, now they are passing the 30% mark of having their LEO staff armed. Would you stop that and return to non- armed LEOs in England in the name of freedom?

Sorry, but I find the whole issue to be complicated rather than simple. And those with simple answers are the people with answers that will not work. And frankly, while I support thoughtful approach to all problems, I find the thoughtless ranting of the masses to be truly frightening.

So again, I ask you- what is the answer to the balance of freedom and security and how can we move in that direction?

Brian, a BIG believer in the Constitution of the US but who also knows that it is not a suicide pact

Security "theater."  It is the ILLUSION of security.  We have be forced to give up our rights to privacy, to be free of harassment, to not be tracked, to come and go as we please, to have rapid transport, of keeping our hard-earned money, for the FEELING of being secure.  I don't think it is worth it EVEN IF IT WORKED.... but the reality is shown in study after study which shows that airport security does almost nothing to stop actual threats.

One of many examples:  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-tsa-airport-security-charade-20150608-story.html
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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2017, 06:17:50 pm »
It would be a confidence builder if the US security protocols included looking for bad people along with guns, knives and fingernail clippers.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2017, 08:35:49 pm »
Ah, the 'A- team' argument. So what would you have us do Max, nothing more than what was done pre- 911? That is not only political suicide but frankly, reckless.

It would certainly be political suicide, but I am not sure about reckless

Quote
Would you NOT increase security in our airports? Or would you have the occasional air liner fall out of the sky as a fireball?

The second portion of that is more like a straw-man argument....  The first part I will address.  I would increase security based on actual prevention.  All this crap started 9/11 and the main reason?  Because the doors on the cockpit were not strong/secure.  Yes, it might be an oversimplification, but I think it mostly boils down to that.  Restrictions on lighters, toenail clippers, tiny quantities of toiletries, blunt butter knives, baby food, shirts with Arabic writing on them, and micro-nude scans are absurd.  Couple that with a "secret" no-fly list that no normal person can query or challenge, and you throw the Constitution right out the window. 

Quote
Please understand I am not throwing rocks at that position but you have to take responsibility IF that is your position. We have to make a choice, and cannot stand dumb and deaf to reality, so the choices are 1) do something, with all the wrongs and faults of that or 2) do nothing, and allow others to determine the course of our future.

It depends on what people find acceptable.  If never having a single plane EVER go down due to security- that is probably just impossible.  And if that is the goal, then ridiculous amounts of security- hundreds of times what we do now, will make no difference.  It will just make air travel nearly impossible.  Ban all carry-on, require everyone to be strip searched and then put on jail uniforms, and be handcuffed to the seats during travel; but what about the plane staff?  The maintenance crews?  The baggage handlers? The security agents, themselves?

Quote
The easy thing is always to complain and find fault in the current situation or others' behavior but what would YOU suggest as an alternative?

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)

Quote
No scans at US airports? Allowing passengers in the us, or flying to the US, to freely board planes w/out searches or increased security?

I think that mostly the levels of security we had before 9-11 were reasonable, just add some fast technology upgrades.  You could get through security lines in 5 minutes.  Remember, current security which is WAY overkill and invasive has been shown to be 95% ineffective.  So, theoretically, if we cut out 95% of what was introduced by 9-11, we will be no worse than before.  Being told to arrive TWO HOURS before a flight is just insane!  Add that to all the traditional headaches: the drive there, parking, late planes, delays on the runways, missed connections, lost or damaged luggage, and it is no wonder people are avoiding flying as much as possible and the entire industry is hurting badly.

Quote
[...]Sorry, but I find the whole issue to be complicated rather than simple. And those with simple answers are the people with answers that will not work. And frankly, while I support thoughtful approach to all problems, I find the thoughtless ranting of the masses to be truly frightening.

It is the thoughtless ranting that brought on the extremely expensive, 95% ineffective, and unacceptable security we have now.  "Save the children!!!"  We responded emotionally, not rationally, not with science, to the situation.  But you are right, it is complicated.  I am not a travel security expert, so I don't know exactly what best approaches to use, but what we have now is obviously not the best approach by all kinds of measures including results, timeliness, cost, privacy, and convenience.   I have had direct experience with the "new" security theater several times now in airports and, to me (and many others), it is unacceptable- if for no other reason, the slowness.  At least some of the most insane security measures were cut back over time, but only after pissing off millions of people for too long.  If bombs are the main concern, then focus on rapid chemical detection technology and give all the rest of the stuff a rest!

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2017, 09:14:59 pm »
Yep, true enough. And while my base thoughts are to agree with that, there are two things in the way: the US Consittution, which no matter how one reads it, prevents profiling, and the fact that the 'bad people' are not as easily identified as it at first seems.

The first part is easy: read the document, study a very small amount of US judicial law and find the weak spot to pass through. Well, easy in concept, not so easy in practice.

The second part is tougher: say you can identify the 'bad people' and prevent them from flying / walking around freely and so forth. Problem solved..... or is it? If there are any smart 'bad people' and 911 proves there are, then the easy way would be for the 'bad people' to simply stock the ole' grandma' from Duluth, coming back from visiting her newest grandbaby, with a small bomb in her luggage which WILL NOT be searched because she is not one of the 'bad people'. If that is not possible, perhaps loading her car with explosives and sending her off to the nearest mall and then detonating them. See the problem?

As a middle- aged, white, male born and bred in the US of A, and absolutely leaning toward the right, I would love for the solution to be that simple. And to just kinda' nod and wink at the constitution. But is is not and I cannot. The modern world presents a real problem and the response is both complex and not entirely effective.

BTW: I am writing this while waiting for the clock to turn sufficiently for me to go pick up my wife (again I guess, as I 'picked her up' long, long ago :-)  ) at the airport. She is flying in from BWI, and I am angry at her having to go through the screening at two airports, and glad for the screening of all the OTHER passengers at the same time. As I said, it is complicated.

Brian

Edited for the post to make sense, such as I am able to make sense in posting anything.
It would be a confidence builder if the US security protocols included looking for bad people along with guns, knives and fingernail clippers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:45:56 pm by B.D.F. »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2017, 09:29:44 pm »
Uh oh, you are getting dangerously close to both the truth and 'national blasphemy', all in one stroke (Easy Boys! I know nothing of Max's strokes nor do I want to).

I do not have time to respond to this properly as I have to pick up my wife at the 'very safe' airport but if this thread is not locked or moved to the arena, will do so tomorrow. But always remember, there are truths that cannot be spoken and absolutely certainly not addressed in any meaningful way. And part of this truth is what some totalerian gov'ts got and get right. But it will not and cannot fly in any modern western country, at least not out in the open.

Brian

It would certainly be political suicide, but I am not sure about reckless

The second portion of that is more like a straw-man argument....  The first part I will address.  I would increase security based on actual prevention.  All this crap started 9/11 and the main reason?  Because the doors on the cockpit were not strong/secure.  Yes, it might be an oversimplification, but I think it mostly boils down to that.  Restrictions on lighters, toenail clippers, tiny quantities of toiletries, blunt butter knives, baby food, shirts with Arabic writing on them, and micro-nude scans are absurd.  Couple that with a "secret" no-fly list that no normal person can query or challenge, and you throw the Constitution right out the window. 

It depends on what people find acceptable.  If never having a single plane EVER go down due to security- that is probably just impossible.  And if that is the goal, then ridiculous amounts of security- hundreds of times what we do now, will make no difference.  It will just make air travel nearly impossible.  Ban all carry-on, require everyone to be strip searched and then put on jail uniforms, and be handcuffed to the seats during travel; but what about the plane staff?  The maintenance crews?  The baggage handlers? The security agents, themselves?

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)

I think that mostly the levels of security we had before 9-11 were reasonable, just add some fast technology upgrades.  You could get through security lines in 5 minutes.  Remember, current security which is WAY overkill and invasive has been shown to be 95% ineffective.  So, theoretically, if we cut out 95% of what was introduced by 9-11, we will be no worse than before.  Being told to arrive TWO HOURS before a flight is just insane!  Add that to all the traditional headaches: the drive there, parking, late planes, delays on the runways, missed connections, lost or damaged luggage, and it is no wonder people are avoiding flying as much as possible and the entire industry is hurting badly.

It is the thoughtless ranting that brought on the extremely expensive, 95% ineffective, and unacceptable security we have now.  "Save the children!!!"  We responded emotionally, not rationally, not with science, to the situation.  But you are right, it is complicated.  I am not a travel security expert, so I don't know exactly what best approaches to use, but what we have now is obviously not the best approach by all kinds of measures including results, timeliness, cost, privacy, and convenience.   I have had direct experience with the "new" security theater several times now in airports and, to me (and many others), it is unacceptable- if for no other reason, the slowness.  At least some of the most insane security measures were cut back over time, but only after pissing off millions of people for too long.  If bombs are the main concern, then focus on rapid chemical detection technology and give all the rest of the stuff a rest!

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2017, 02:45:39 am »

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.

Living in the UK through the 70's &  80's bag searches, rub downs , under/in vehicle searches, scanning of mail etc were (relatively) commonplace when going into many public buildings mainly (but not exclusively) due to the activities of our Irish cousins (and to a smaller degree Welsh Language Activists although they concentrated mainly on burning down holiday cottages in Wales owned by the English or painting cars green).

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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2017, 03:48:12 am »
Gotta ask.... Do you Brits feel safer?

Telegraph.co.uk

One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey
Britain has a CCTV camera for every 11 people, a security industry report disclosed, as privacy campaigners criticised the growth of the “surveillance state”.

By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent6:30PM BST 10 Jul 2013

The British Security Industry Authority (BSIA) estimated there are up to 5.9 million closed-circuit television cameras in the country, including 750,000 in “sensitive locations” such as schools, hospitals and care homes.
The survey’s maximum estimate works out at one for every 11 people in the UK, although the BSIA said the most likely figure was 4.9 million cameras in total, or one for every 14 people.
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