Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 16743 times)

Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 08:02:51 am »
Maybe we could start looking into having the school safety officers being armed.

Good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun.

Maybe even start letting qualified teachers conceal carry?

More good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns.

I'm very sorry for all the parents and relatives who will have to live through this tragedy.

And, yes, I'm sorry if I have offended any gun control fanatics but my answer is in fact having more guns in the hands of good guys who have been vetted and are qualified to use them.
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 08:21:37 am »
My bad. I thought an altar with guns was mandatory for gun enthusiasts. Look in your man cave, if you have one. :)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 09:03:40 am »
Yep, could be. Again, because this is such a polarizing issue here, the way statistics and facts are presented is often done so in such a way to put a spin on the facts. Of course no school shooting that caused no harm would not be reported as such, it would merely be grouped in with all of them and stated as a final number, while specifically discussing the or one of the most extreme examples.

It is very difficult to analyse data for some of these very hotly disputed issues because it would require doing things such as separating firearm deaths into, say, two groups: negative and positive. Which certainly sounds odd on the surface but consider that many shooting deaths in the US are done with cause and reason by police, and often done in the middle of stopping some type of major crime; such a firearm death is difficult to put into a slot because even if one would try and consider it a beneficial act, the <more> beneficial and desirable outcome would be the capture and arrest of that same individual. Plus any further deaths that that perpetrator might have caused has he / she not been stopped with a firearm are speculative and unprofitable even if obvious.

A difficult subject to discuss because emotions come to the surface almost immediately and cloud all subsequent logic and reason. If we try to eliminate the emotion and move forward with the discussion and reasoning, everyone involved starts to sound like a psychopath.

Brian

I think it's the 18th shooting incident this year in total but the 6th (or 8th depending who's counting) one where people were injured or killed.


The rest were firearms discharges in or around school grounds
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 09:14:34 am »
Let me start off my reply by saying I am firmly on the pro- gun side of the gun control issue.

I am wary of arming any significant number of people in crowded, public places, especially closed- in places, simply because the potential for collateral shooting victims would increase, at least IMO. No amount of training or skill will prevent the shooting of the wrong people by mistake, or even the shooting of unintended people in addition to shooting the 'right' person(s) due to over penetration.

I hear what you are saying, and I do believe it would be effective but I am wary of the peripheral costs of such an approach, again in a densely populated, confined area.

The controlled entrance(s) and metal detectors method is also certainly not desirable in the least but I think it might be the only thing that would prove effective immediately.

The desirable thing would be to simply have people behave better but it does not look like that is possible. Which leaves any and all other methods as being undesirable but perhaps the only way to increase safety. Exactly the way air travel has very negative and undesirable security aspects now in an effort to increase air travel safety.

Frankly, I do not think there really is a 'good' solution to this problem and that is the most unfortunate aspect of all IMO. I do not like problems without solutions and suspect no one does but that is what this appears to be: a problem without a solution, only undesirable ways to address it with unknown costs, though they will be substantial, and unknown benefits.

Brian

Maybe we could start looking into having the school safety officers being armed.

Good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun.

Maybe even start letting qualified teachers conceal carry?

More good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns.

I'm very sorry for all the parents and relatives who will have to live through this tragedy.

And, yes, I'm sorry if I have offended any gun control fanatics but my answer is in fact having more guns in the hands of good guys who have been vetted and are qualified to use them.
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Offline jimmymac

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 03:13:34 pm »
I'm glad I'm 50, and not 5.
This world is going nuts.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 03:51:32 pm »
I hear what you are saying, and I do believe it would be effective but I am wary of the peripheral costs of such an approach, again in a densely populated, confined area.

It is a matter of statistical analyses and such.  Yes, having armed guards and teachers DOES increase the likelihood of peripheral damage.  But when the choice is, for example:

1) Lose many good lives by a bad intruder.
2) Lose many fewer good lives by a bad intruder stopped by a good person and in the process possibly a collateral good life.

The choice seems more rational.  Of course, there are many other possibilities.  But I bet if one examines all the outcomes, based on actual situations, one will find out the second choice wins, by a wide margin.  Seeking solution that expects a perfect outcomes all the time is doomed to failure in one or more metrics.

Quote
The controlled entrance(s) and metal detectors method is also certainly not desirable in the least but I think it might be the only thing that would prove effective immediately.

But it is only affordable or practical where the risk is so high that it makes sense.  Some schools already do this- in areas with a history that shows it is necessary.  Otherwise, we are just what I call "fighting lightening".... lightening is random and disastrous but also rare and incredibly unpredictable.

Quote
Frankly, I do not think there really is a 'good' solution to this problem and that is the most unfortunate aspect of all IMO. I do not like problems without solutions and suspect no one does but that is what this appears to be: a problem without a solution, only undesirable ways to address it with unknown costs, though they will be substantial, and unknown benefits.

About the only rational thing to do is to research what causes some students to go haywire.  The same haywire students can stab a bunch of people, run a car over dozens of students in the school playground, or throw a gasoline bomb through a classroom window.  We might not like the conclusions... I can even guess some of them:

* Breakdown of the nuclear family
* Lack of proper parenting
* Lack of morality teaching (in whatever flavor it comes)
* Social media pressures
* Smart phones
* Lack of mental health resources
* Over pampering of students (no child left behind, awards for non-merit, lack of goal settings, etc)
* Lack of discipline and holding people responsible for their actions (instead of the "everyone is a victim game)

So you replace one impossible situation with few answers with a whole bunch of other perhaps somewhat lesser impossible situations with few answers.  I bet those factors are all the same when looking at child suicide.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 05:41:38 pm »
Difficult to address the points in your layered post but the two points I think I can address are 1) the idea of more armed people inside a public school and 2) the cost of controlled and limited entry (basically setting up a manned entrance point where fast screening for metal (metal detector portal only) is done and nothing more. I am absolutely NOT talking about airport level security here but rather a fast scan and pass = enter, fail = [no entry] but no further testing.

I think the screening method is actually the more inherently balanced, enforceable system with fewer unknown risks going forward. Both (a large armed presence and tight entry screening) will cost something but I believe it can be done w/in acceptable parameters.

As to your 'fighting lightening' thought, I actually agree but have a different viewpoint: I call it 'the shotgun fix'. It is not accurate in that it does not pinpoint a specific problem (or threat) and address that problem directly but it is a blanket solution with an extremely high likelihood of absolute success. Again, we probably have different backgrounds but one of my areas of responsibility has been industrial safety, on a machine or production line basis. Basically, how to keep people attached to all their appendages and NOT have their respiration stopped by an automatic machine, procedure or process. The 'shotgun solution' works well here; safety curtains around the [machine, area, production line], be they mechanical or electronic (scanning lasers are wonderful for this) simple stop the machine / line when anything penetrates that barrier. There is no effort to determine if it is a human or a soda can, ANYTHING past a certain point and the line shuts down. This is crude in that it is not selective but it is extremely effective because humans quickly adapt to the situation and do not allow something like a soda can to enter the 'hot zone' because it will stop the line, and someone will be cranky about that. So the people around this system become part of the very regulation needed to make it work.

The idea of screening all personnel entering a public school would be the same: metal detector goes off, you do not get in. It is your responsibility to [not bring] notebooks with metal ring binders with you, not the responsibility of the school or safety personnel to find said notebook and remove it. Metal detector goes off, you do not get in and tomorrow, you should be better prepared to enter school. It would be easy enough to put a metal detector in a pre- entrance room so personnel could check themselves to find out if they can pass or not when they get to the actual testing procedure.

And again the 'shotgun fix' aspect of this is global: it will catch firearms, ammunition, magazines but also knives, metal toes work boots and about anything else that IS NOT NEEDED in a public school.

As to your social fixes and changes, all of that may be an excellent idea also but it will not work in the next 30 days: the metal detector proposal will I believe. But two or more solutions can be used at the same time, even more is fine and the metal detector method does not preclude any other devices or procedures you mentioned nor others yet.

One last point: as far as the statistical analysis, I am afraid that will not work in practice. I am not saying it is a bad idea, in fact I believe it is absolutely correct but the extremely simple emotional approach will kill that with 'what is one child's life worth'. Of course one can put a price on that but the person that says it is done as a public figure of any kind whatsoever. If you do not believe me, ask Ford if the cost of fixing an extremely remote and rare problem with a Pinto could be put into dollars (yes, it is NOT worth $9 per car and that memo, when made public, resulted in some of the very first corporate personnel to be charged with felonies in this country..... ever).

And so the logic of your ideas of acceptable collateral damage done in the name of the 'greater good' will be shouted down en mass when a child is shot or killed by the 'good guy' who also shot the 'bad guy'. It is not that you are not right, it is that that entire idea cannot be sold to the public.

Brian

It is a matter of statistical analyses and such.  Yes, having armed guards and teachers DOES increase the likelihood of peripheral damage.  But when the choice is, for example:

1) Lose many good lives by a bad intruder.
2) Lose many fewer good lives by a bad intruder stopped by a good person and in the process possibly a collateral good life.

The choice seems more rational.  Of course, there are many other possibilities.  But I bet if one examines all the outcomes, based on actual situations, one will find out the second choice wins, by a wide margin.  Seeking solution that expects a perfect outcomes all the time is doomed to failure in one or more metrics.

But it is only affordable or practical where the risk is so high that it makes sense.  Some schools already do this- in areas with a history that shows it is necessary.  Otherwise, we are just what I call "fighting lightening".... lightening is random and disastrous but also rare and incredibly unpredictable.

About the only rational thing to do is to research what causes some students to go haywire.  The same haywire students can stab a bunch of people, run a car over dozens of students in the school playground, or throw a gasoline bomb through a classroom window.  We might not like the conclusions... I can even guess some of them:

* Breakdown of the nuclear family
* Lack of proper parenting
* Lack of morality teaching (in whatever flavor it comes)
* Social media pressures
* Smart phones
* Lack of mental health resources
* Over pampering of students (no child left behind, awards for non-merit, lack of goal settings, etc)
* Lack of discipline and holding people responsible for their actions (instead of the "everyone is a victim game)

So you replace one impossible situation with few answers with a whole bunch of other perhaps somewhat lesser impossible situations with few answers.  I bet those factors are all the same when looking at child suicide.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 08:10:14 pm »
(basically setting up a manned entrance point where fast screening for metal (metal detector portal only) is done and nothing more. I am absolutely NOT talking about airport level security here but rather a fast scan and pass = enter, fail = [no entry] but no further testing.

If you have no hard perimeter/entry and nothing but an unarmed guard and a metal detector (the typically seen "cheap" solution), it will accomplish nothing but negatives.  That is what I call "security theater."  All the fear, all the inconvenience, and much of the cost, with little effectiveness.  The teenager could walk up to detector, pull out a gun, shoot the guard dead, and then start shooting everyone he wants inside.  Alternatively, he could work with someone else and gain access through any emergency exit, be inside in seconds and shoot anyone he likes, unchallenged.  This is exactly the type of nonsense one sees at concert halls, theme parks, and the like.

Quote
The idea of screening all personnel entering a public school would be the same: metal detector goes off, you do not get in.

That is, indeed, technologically possible, with a multi-layer entry system.  An open entry, then protection of the guard and internal personnel behind bullet-proof walls/glass/doors that are only opened to people who pass.  It really requires 3 doors/chambers to work (insecure entry/waiting, testing, and secure)- one main entry area, then one that allows a single person into a holding area and the door behind them locks, they are screened by automated equipment, and then the third door unlocks.  But this is typically big, expensive, and very slow entry..... one person at a time, rinse and repeat.  And if someone can't pass through due to false positives, it holds up everyone.  Unless, of course, you now replicate the 3-door system in parallel for additional entrances.  $$$!  Next point of irony..... since it now takes a long time to get in, there will be lots of people in the main insecure area waiting to get in.... still with no armed "good" people.  Bam, instant target area.  Same with parking lot.  Same with buses.

Quote
As to your social fixes and changes, all of that may be an excellent idea also but it will not work in the next 30 days:

Correct.  The hard problems take a long time to solve.  Many of the things that have created the situation have taken decades of social problems. 

Quote
One last point: as far as the statistical analysis, I am afraid that will not work in practice. I am not saying it is a bad idea, in fact I believe it is absolutely correct but the extremely simple emotional approach will kill that with 'what is one child's life worth'.

Exactly.  When people think with emotion and not reason, nothing will work.  We just end up with emotional laws that do little but create a lot of collateral damage.

My ending point is the same as been heard a lot- "the only thing that really stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun."  Same with deterrents.  Same with nuclear weapons.  You can't un-release the genie from the bottle.  Fortunately, there are typically a LOT more good people than bad.... or we really would be screwed.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 12:36:55 am »
As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned. All you can do is try & chip away at the problem. Sadly there is no quick/easy fix.


The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,0001 to 310,000,0002


The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in the United States is 101.05

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states


++++++++++++++

"The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were
handguns.Seventy-four percent of those individuals were reported to own more than one
firearm.

According to the ATF, by the end of 1996 approximately 242 million firearms were
available for sale to or were possessed by civilians in the United States. That total includes
roughly 72 million handguns (mostly pistols, revolvers, and derringers), 76 million rifles, and 64
million shotguns

By 2000, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 259 million: 92 million handguns, 92 million rifles, and 75 million shotguns.

By 2007, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns
."
Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf


Comparison on guns per 100 Head of population


Rank   Country   Guns per 100 residents   
1    United States   101
2    Serbia   58.21   
3    Yemen   54.8   
4    Cyprus   36.4   
5    Saudi Arabia   35   
6    Iraq           34.2   
7    Uruguay   31.8   
8    Norway   31.3   
9    France   31.2   
10    Canada   30.8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:46 am »
As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned.

Even if you took away almost all guns, they still exist and would still have to be addressed.  It is worthy to note another view about guns, too.  They are an equalizer.  Pretty much all other weapons require some type of physical strength or stamina to wield, allowing the physically powerful to dominate everyone else.  And the more physical strength/stamina the more effective such domination becomes.  Guns allow women to be more equal with men, and the less wealthy, weaker, older, sicker, or disabled to have effective protection.  In a strange sort of way, it fits nicely with the concept of democracy and voting equality (1 citizen, 1 vote).

Quote
The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

Most [USA] gun owners have many guns each.  It isn't paranoia or hoarding- you can really only use one at any given time and, for carry, 1 or 2 is all that is generally practical.   I think four factors explain it best:  1) Many owners upgrade several times as they look for what they like the most or as newer technology comes available and retain what they previously purchased.  2) Many are collectors and like the variety and design.  3) There are different roles for different weapons- one might have a home protection gun, a full-sized carry gun, a smaller concealed gun, hunting guns, several target guns, training guns, etc.  4) Some engage in repair and restoration and/or speculation.

I am not a collector nor hunter and have only what I need for different roles (#3, above), which currently amounts to 4 roles (home defense, large carry, small carry, target) with one upgrade duplication for a total of 5, all pistols.

If I had the money (purchase, upkeep, taxes, insurance) and space, I would certainly have more than one car and one motorcycle :)
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Offline Conrad

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 04:06:52 am »
10 years to the day for the shooting at NIU. I was there and it was like a war zone.

http://northernstar.info/news/years-later-learning-from-tragedy/article_ee5d9982-120a-11e8-975d-d76e2644553b.html
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 06:05:04 am »

The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,0001 to 310,000,0002

"The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were
handguns.Seventy-four percent of those individuals were reported to own more than one firearm.

By 2007, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns
."
Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf

Comparison on guns per 100 Head of population


Rank   Country   Guns per 100 residents   
1    United States   101
2    Serbia   58.21   
3    Yemen   54.8   
4    Cyprus   36.4   
5    Saudi Arabia   35   
6    Iraq           34.2   
7    Uruguay   31.8   
8    Norway   31.3   
9    France   31.2   
10    Canada   30.8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.

And when I posted about allowing teachers and or other persons in schools to be allowed to conceal carry, my thought was to remove the idea of schools being gun free zones.  I know it would not deter all bad guys intent on shooting up a school from trying to do so ... but ...

If we could save just one child ...
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 06:33:29 am »
Yes, we have a lot of firearms, pretty randomly spread throughout the population and area of the country (with some notable exceptions). Of course whether or not this is 'a problem' or simply the way the US works is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

And there are other, smaller genies waiting in the wings that you may not even be aware of in the UK.

The first thing is that a 'firearm' must be defined, and we have done so in the US by calling the 'part' that carries the serial number, usually the frame, "the gun"; all the other parts are simply machine parts that are not in any way firearms. So let us take the so often talked about AR-15 rifle for example; it is the lower receiver that is the 'firearm', with the great majority of the parts of that particular piece of hardware, including the difficult to manufacturer as well as the heat- treated parts [not] being part of the firearm. That means one can buy, own, sell, make, alter, possess or anything else, any and all of the parts of an AR-15 except the lower receiver.

Bear with me, I am going somewhere with this, I promise. Now, that lower receiver starts out as a block of aluminum, which is clearly not any part of a firearm but then goes through a manufacturing process to become the receiver that IS the firearm, and that part is regulated. But at what point does that piece of aluminum become a receiver? It is when it moves past the 80% point of the manufacturing time that it takes to make one. So, make an AR-15 lower but leave out the fire control group holes, leave a portion of the inside un=machined and it is NOT a receiver and firearm.

With the advent of CNC controlled machinery, and the refinement and general miniaturization of these machines over the years, they have become quite small, relatively inexpensive, and depending on software, easy to use. Now a complete 3-D milling machine needed to turn an 80% lower receiver into a 100% lower receiver is less than $1,000, not regulated in any way (hey, it is a machine tool, like a drill press) and can be set up to run on anyone's kitchen table.

So, tomorrow morning make "assault rifles" illegal in the US and an entire cottage industry will crop up to supply them illegally anyway. Oh there will be no where near the number being sold today, that is a fact, and statistically it would look great: AR-15's being introduced to the civilian population would drop by 99.9% but any gang- banger or worse yet, anyone hell- bent on doing great damage will be able to get one from some local 'back yard' operation. Sure the gov't will shut down and arrest those doing this, but others will spring up and just continue along. It will be like the US's War on Drugs, which ain't goin' all that great either: we intercept a huge amount of illicit drugs coming in to the US and those who supply them just ship even larger quantities.

So as you correctly point out Mike, the genie is long out of the bottle and has spread to all the corners of this country, there are other, smaller genies waiting in the wings to become a serious problem. Removing the firearms such as was done in the UK and Australia simply is not an option in the US, at least not one that would be effective for decades or centuries, but there are now other ways that will easily  supply that incredibly small part of the population that is actually causing all the firearm issues.

That leaves population controls or as maxtog suggested, changing the 'hearts and minds' of those few who are causing all of the violence. Changing the hearts and minds, or at least identifying the problem individuals would be best but is also the most difficult and given our Constitution, it would be difficult- to- impossible to 'stop' those deemed a threat anyway. Which leaves controlling the population as the only thing that has a chance of working; more security, less personal liberty, traded for less violent outbursts.

Brian

As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned. All you can do is try & chip away at the problem. Sadly there is no quick/easy fix.

<snip>

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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 06:58:17 am »
I'd be interested in info on a sub thousand dollar 3D mill.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 10:26:07 am »
I cannot point you toward any specific one(s) but I have seen them made to be used specifically for this purpose. They are not general purpose machine centers but specialized 'hobbyist' tools meant to do that one job only. It is more of a very elaborate and accurate router than a true milling machine but the point holds: they are available, unregulated and are not likely to ever be regulated; how would anyone regulate machine tools or power tools?

The ones I have seen are basically variations on this theme: https://www.banggood.com/2417-3-Axis-Mini-DIY-CNC-Router-Wood-Craving-Engraving-Cutting-Milling-Desktop-Engraver-Machine-240x170x65mm-p-1209292.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_elc&utm_content=zouzou&utm_campaign=pla-us-ele-Laser-Equipment-pc&gclid=CjwKCAiAn5rUBRA3EiwAUCWb28D7fsEvXh4_GWo2VIIJ4Fp_LEBv_bHIEw4y-VrzSKTWHbHn0f5y5hoC_qwQAvD_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN

For a more general purpose hobbyist machining center, you have to reach a little beyond a thousand dollars but not much; there are small gantry- type, general purpose machines available for under $2,000 pretty readily. Most of them are really routers but will cut steel albeit slowly and only with small cutters. A quick search will turn up a lot of examples like this one:https://www.sign-in-china.com/products/16215/new_professional_4060_desktop_cnc_router_drilling_milling_machine.html?ex=USD&utm_source=Googleshopping_us&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=googleshopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAn5rUBRA3EiwAUCWb2w4u3_cSar2X0c_8ZLiKVuJPJXSUXY2M8jmtlfgIBRvLFxX1_q3sRxoCoNEQAvD_BwE

And there are some pretty slick and surprisingly rugged and rigid kits out there that work pretty well, again for under a thousand dollars or so.

Back to the 80% receivers: a quick search will also turn up finished receivers being made as an illegal 'cottage industry' already; if the firearms are banned, there will just be a larger, still illegal, cottage industry that will crop up to supply them. In my own opinion, firearm regulation will not yield acceptable results; the recent Las Vegas terrorist attacker spent a great deal of time, money and effort to collect the hardware he used and I believe he would have done the same thing but gone a slightly different route had the hardware he purchased not been available legally. We tried to prohibit alcohol one time before too and that did not really work out IMO.

Back to the original topic, I would really like to see  some improvement here; my first grandchild is on the way and soon enough will be in the school system as well as 'out in the world' in the US. So it is not a case of 'us' or 'them', it is 'we' and I would like to see my grandchild(ren?) enter an improved environment. Put crudely and simply: I do not want to get 'that phone call' either, and we are all in this together so I am motivated to seek real improvements.

Brian

I'd be interested in info on a sub thousand dollar 3D mill.
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