Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 16356 times)

Offline Dualsport

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2018, 10:56:56 am »
Limited entry is the only solution--and the person defending at the limited entry should be behind adequate bulletproof cover and have the adequate defensive/repelling capability until the calvary can arrive. I am willing to open my wallet to achieve this. It must be done at every school, even the most rural. That means State level action and Federal funding assistance.
Too many issues and too many logistics to get caught up in to rationalize anything else. Further delay is unconscionable. Yes, we need to help or identify those that are troubled, but we are a heartbeat away from ISIS -- or some other insanity from attacking our hallowed places. Bombs, shootings, stabbings -- or any other kind of assault we haven't envisioned or encountered yet, must occur outside the walls of the Public school.
I received a traffic ticket in Springfield, MO and traveled there to fight the ticket. Our Oklahoma courthouse has one Sheriff Deputy (looks like he's the newest member of the force) and a metal detector, and it's simply inadequate protection against a determined combattant. However, the courthouse in Springfield is practically safeguarded with efficient limited access, e.g. it's efficient to get in, but not armed. If their Sherriff doesn't press a button, then the bulletproof revolving door will not allow access. It did not look impractical and should not be financially prohibitive.   We just have to do it. Even if you don't buy what I'm sell'n as any kind of a long-term solution, it is a practical first step. If in places we're willing to defend a courthouse to this level, then how could we ever rationalize not doing so to protect our most valued in society our children.

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2018, 11:17:42 am »
That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.


That or you only have to worry about the Crazy Canucks & the Mad Mexicans ;)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2018, 11:54:09 am »
Limited entry is the only solution--[...]Even if you don't buy what I'm sell'n as any kind of a long-term solution, it is a practical first step. If in places we're willing to defend a courthouse to this level, then how could we ever rationalize not doing so to protect our most valued in society our children.

I think most rational people would come to the same conclusion (one I said earlier, and Brian, and you are echoing)- you can't greatly protect an uncontrolled area- one where good people are likely not armed and bad people could be.   Interestingly, it is even possible for schools to NOT be gun-free zones and still work fine.  The objective should be to keep "bad" armed people out.  Licensed gun owners (those with a valid/active concealed carry permit) are actually among the most law-abiding and "good" people out there... armed or not.  Such a controlled-entry system could allow licensed  armed people into the secure area with little concern.  Of course, EMOTIONALLY, most people just can't deal with those facts.

I will just repeat an interesting statistic I used in the other thread as an example....  people might easily accept the idea of allowing an armed police officer into such a secured zone, yet scoff at the idea of a licensed civilian.  Police are who society trusts with guns, and demands they be armed to "protect us."  We think of them as having passed all kinds of tests of their character and ability.   And yet, as good (generally) as police officers are, police officers commit 700% more felonies than licensed, armed civilians!  In Texas, a comparison of all crimes lets that number soar to 1000% more than licenses civilians.  Guns are not the problem, it is who has them.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/8255/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-most-law-aaron-bandler
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/02/comparing-conviction-rates-between-police-and-concealed-carry-permit-holders/
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2018, 01:01:05 pm »
That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.


Actually, the U.S. is being invaded continually.  "Illegal immigration" is a poor term and disguises the fact that if you enter the country LEGALLY, then yes, you are an immigrant.  If you enter ILEGALLY then you are in fact, an invader.


The news quote regarding 18 school shooting is disingenous as it includeds ANY discharge of a firearm within school property or close by even if no students involved:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2018/feb/15/jeff-greenfield/mostly-false-18-us-school-shootings-so-far-2018-an/



If guns are THE problem, then how come, with the millions of rounds fired at shooting ranges in this country, very few are shot/killed at a those locations?  And mostly by accident.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-die-annually-at-shooting-ranges-in-the-US



Schools are poorly designed for defense or evacuation.  I haven't been in a school since I graduated in 1973, but my recollection combined with news pictures says that they all have rooms with ONE door that opens to a hallway.  And the windows are not designed for easy egress.  There is no way out for students in the case of fire or threat except to go down that hallway, meaning slow evacuation, follow-the-slowest-leader style.  A shooter just has to walk down the hall and let the victims come out or go into the room and commence slaughter as the victims have no other way out.  Better would be an outside door in each room is ALWAYS LOCKED and that only opens OUT, so each room could be emptierd rapidly, let the kids push the door open and run like hell.  Sheltering inside is only minimally effective, and once the shooters learn that people hide in closets then they just start shooting into the closets.  I can't imagine there is much inside a school that will stop a rifle round.  I've shot .223 through a lot of stuff and it penetrates pretty well.


Figuring out how to stop producing psychopaths would help a lot, but I have no idea how to go about that.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2018, 01:25:56 pm »
Figuring out how to stop producing psychopaths would help a lot, but I have no idea how to go about that.

If you do, you would certainly earn a Nobel prize. 

https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

Unfortunately, it seems most of these rare acts of extreme and senseless violence are, indeed, committed by psychopaths and sociopaths.  Even more unfortunate is that the best science can tell, people are born with varying degrees of psychopathic tendencies.  The real slippery slope is that we are getting better at detecting who actually is higher or lower on the scale, even at an early age.  I have seen programs that claim an FET brain scan can spot psycho/sociopaths.... the common trait being that they cannot empathize correctly with others and that actually shows clearly in the scans when questioned about certain topics.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:16:41 pm by maxtog »
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Offline Rhino

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2018, 01:32:30 pm »
The BBC is reporting at least 17 fatalities.


What's also sad is that its only the 7th week of the year and this is already the sixth school shooting incident in 2018 that has either wounded or killed students.


Edit: Another news site I've read it on (The Guardian) says its at least the 8th this year

Just a tad misleading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.82ea612a8cf5

Offline Rhino

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2018, 01:34:03 pm »
I am wary of arming any significant number of people in crowded, public places, especially closed- in places, simply because the potential for collateral shooting victims would increase, at least IMO. No amount of training or skill will prevent the shooting of the wrong people by mistake, or even the shooting of unintended people in addition to shooting the 'right' person(s) due to over penetration.

Arming civilian guards has worked to stop school shootings in Israel.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2018, 01:57:14 pm »
On this I disagree: psychopathy is not a binary (Positive or Negative) state but a sliding scale. Further, some amount of psychopathy is actually desirable in many instances and functions in society; those following statistical analysis vs. emotional reaction are demonstrating psychopathic behavior.

Also, given our constitution, what exactly would we do about sociopaths / psychopaths anyway? Due process and all that will stop preemptive action on the part of almost all official agencies and systems currently in place. 'Innocent until proven guilty' really gets in the way of pre- prosecuting those [perhaps more likely] to commit crimes vs. those [less likely to commit crimes] before any crime is committed. Unless we are willing to toss the entire Constitution, and I personally am not willing to do that for any amount of increase in perceived safety (as it will be false safety anyway but the traded freedoms will most certainly be gone, most likely forever).

Further, I am not sure it is truly psychopaths that are the real problem. I believe it may well be people perhaps outside the 'normal' behavioral envelope, but then again perhaps not, who are having either a crisis situation or are reaching the end of a long- term, building, crisis situation. Could this perpetrator of this FL tragedy have been steered through some type of counseling / oversight and then back toward an acceptable existence? I am not sure that is NOT the case. I have no reason to believe that that man is a psychopath at all really. And I think it is really dangerous to think that a very small segment of our society are the only ones that will and have caused us harm due to a major psychological defect; normal people in a time of crisis are far more likely to present the larger danger I think. For every Ted Bundy, a true psychopath that no amount of help or oversight would have worked on, IMO, there are hundreds or thousands of psychologically 'normal' people who 'snap' or 'overload' for some period of time.

But we are straying from the topic at hand I think, and that is what can and / or should be done about these recent events in public schools. As I believe the emotional response will carry the day, we will have to do something, effective or not, so we should try and make what we do as effective as possible while staying w/in the limits of our own laws and overall rules. Which brings me all the way back to what can be done immediately and is most likely to be effective [not foolproof or 100% effective but simply effective]. And again I propose a very simple, limited access portal to public schools will address this issue w/in a matter of weeks if we choose to do it. To add a portal onto every single public school in the US is within the realm of possibility, would use standard construction materials and practices, and readily available and well- proven devices such as metal detectors. The fine points are not really far less important such as operators behind bullet proof glass or not; what is important is that only those who can pass through a metal detector without setting it off are allowed to enter the second and final part of the entrance portal and actually enter the school proper.

Will it be a P.I.T.A.? Yep. Will it be costly (monetarily, as well as wasted time)? Yep. But it would also be effective IMO and be a good return on the effort and money expended in putting in such mechanics.

Is it reprehensible that elementary schools should require dual- station, secure entry points with metal detectors? Yep. But it is 2018 and the idea of living in the good ole' days of the 1950's is gone, so this is the real world that we must deal with IMO.

And beyond all of that, as I said before, any or even many other options can be refined, put into place, discussed, and so forth AFTER the entrance portals are in place in front of public schools. This restriction would in no way affect our ability or the desire to do other things to enhance safety and with a little luck, better address the root cause(s) of these situations. But right now, this month, I believe it offers the best way to address the situation of violent outbursts in public schools in the US.

Brian

If you do, you would certainly earn a Nobel prize. 

https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

Unfortunately, it seems most of these rare acts of extreme and senseless violence are, indeed, committed by psychopaths and sociopaths.  Even more unfortunate is that the best science can tell, people are born psychopathic or not.  The real slippery slope is that we are getting better at detecting who actually is one, even at an early age.  I have seen programs that claim an FET brain scan can spot psycho/sociopaths.... the common trait being that they cannot empathize correctly with others and that actually shows clearly in the scans when questioned about certain topics.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 02:15:20 pm »
On this I disagree: psychopathy is not a binary (Positive or Negative) state but a sliding scale.

We probably don't disagree at all.  I shouldn't have worded it as a yes/no, I know it is variable, just paying the price now for sloppy/quick posting.  I just edited it, to help with that.  And yes, it can actually be "positive" in some ways (when on the lower end of the scale and with proper nurture).  I spent hours researching it years ago, and it is quite fascinating.

Quote
Also, given our constitution, what exactly would we do about sociopaths / psychopaths anyway?

That was my "slippery slope" disclaimer.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 02:15:31 pm »

Quote from: mikeyw64 on Yesterday at 12:16:22 am
Quote
The BBC is reporting at least 17 fatalities.


What's also sad is that its only the 7th week of the year and this is already the sixth school shooting incident in 2018 that has either wounded or killed students.


Edit: Another news site I've read it on (The Guardian) says its at least the 8th this year

Just a tad misleading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.82ea612a8cf5

I never said there had been 18 school shootings this year.


The news reports that I referenced were that this was the 6th or 8th this year here there had been injuries or fatalities which ties in with the Washington Post article.


"Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury"
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2018, 02:20:06 pm »
"Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury"

Everytown is notorious for extreme exaggeration and misleading interpretation of statistics.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2018, 02:27:55 pm »
For whatever it is worth Mike, please note that 'Everytown', which is really 'Everytown for Gun Safety' is a hard- left, anti- gun faction that has the goal of unilateral personal disarmament. Started by and still largely financed by former N.Y.C. mayor Michael Bloomberg.

I am not saying they are good nor bad, merely pointing out that the information from them is coming from a very staunchly left (anti- gun) group, just as any information from the NRA would be from a very staunchly right (pro- gun) group. As a non- American, I just wanted you to be aware of where this information is sourced and the fact that they have a very direct, very deliberate and very, very hard- line view on this issue. As does a considerable faction of US news reporting agencies, with the majority seeming to be left- leaning at the current time.

Again, we are wading hip- deep into an extremely derisive, polar issue here in the US. In fact, I am amazed that this thread is 1) still open and 2) still has not been moved to the arena. My compliments to all who are participating, as well as certainly some who are not participating but would do so with perhaps too 'heavy a hand'.

Brian

Just a tad misleading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.82ea612a8cf5


I never said there had been 18 school shootings this year.


The news reports that I referenced were that this was the 6th or 8th this year here there had been injuries or fatalities which ties in with the Washington Post article.


"Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury"
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2018, 02:39:12 pm »
Hey, I think this conversation is going EXTREMELY well considering the topic so no need to apologize IMO.

I am especially wary of the slippery slope and try to take the Constitution literally as much as possible. Even the parts that are unpleasant to me, personally. So while there is a hot debate going on now as to whether or not the FBI did not act sufficiently or properly (I have no reason to believe that is correct BTW, I am sure they get a gazillion 'tips' per day about some 'dangerous individual' and it is the easiest thing in the world to 'Monday morning quarterback' them after the fact), I further wonder exactly what they could have / would have done about it. There is a fine line between free speech and making threats and I am not nearly smart enough to find it, much less apply it to the vast public. ?? So while this person's published statements may seem obvious now, I remain confident that there are literally thousands of FaceTwit instances of a person's fingers getting way ahead of his / her actual intentions.

We must remember that it is not unlawful to be distasteful, or obnoxious in the US of A. We do not yet have thought police nor am I hopeful that we ever will or even should. For all of the banter about 'doing something' given certain behaviors and statements (but not actions), we still have to usually wait until someone actually does something 'bad' before acting against that individual and especially, removing or limiting his / her rights.

If solutions to problems such as these were easy, we would already have them in place.

Brian

We probably don't disagree at all.  I shouldn't have worded it as a yes/no, I know it is variable, just paying the price now for sloppy/quick posting.  I just edited it, to help with that.  And yes, it can actually be "positive" in some ways (when on the lower end of the scale and with proper nurture).  I spent hours researching it years ago, and it is quite fascinating.

That was my "slippery slope" disclaimer.
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2018, 02:45:42 pm »
Seems like the fbi screwed the pooch twice on this one.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2018, 02:57:20 pm »
Only reason I quoted everytown is it was quoted in the Washington Post article which was being used to demonstrate that I was incorrect about claiming 18, which actually I hadn't ;)


Even Everytown only has 5 school shootings in hours this year which is in line with what was stated in my post (although Possibly the BBC & The Guardian were using them as source, its not clear).

The 18 figure (which ironically I believe actually came from yourself initially in this thread which is maybe where Rhino got confused) ) includes such things as the suicide at a school which had been closed for 7 months


For whatever it is worth Mike, please note that 'Everytown', which is really 'Everytown for Gun Safety' is a hard- left, anti- gun faction that has the goal of unilateral personal disarmament. Started by and still largely financed by former N.Y.C. mayor Michael Bloomberg.

I am not saying they are good nor bad, merely pointing out that the information from them is coming from a very staunchly left (anti- gun) group, just as any information from the NRA would be from a very staunchly right (pro- gun) group. As a non- American, I just wanted you to be aware of where this information is sourced and the fact that they have a very direct, very deliberate and very, very hard- line view on this issue. As does a considerable faction of US news reporting agencies, with the majority seeming to be left- leaning at the current time.

Again, we are wading hip- deep into an extremely derisive, polar issue here in the US. In fact, I am amazed that this thread is 1) still open and 2) still has not been moved to the arena. My compliments to all who are participating, as well as certainly some who are not participating but would do so with perhaps too 'heavy a hand'.

Brian
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