Author Topic: I need to vent about this......  (Read 13997 times)

Offline Mal

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2011, 03:24:47 pm »
Friend, I find that post hilarious.  Or your signature line hilarious.  Or the combination of the two.  All of life is risk.  Either risk management belongs to the individual, or it belongs to someone else (the government).  I think my position is clear, if not well-stated.  I believe I understand yours. 

At some point, you have to either claim the right to control other people, or you have to let it go.  IMO, it is better to teach, even though some will choose wrong.  Force vs persuasion.  Freedom vs subjection.  I have not always lived the principle well, but I stand on the side of freedom.  Even with the risks that freedom entails.

Then you will appreciate this quote as it fits what you are saying:

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise." – John Stuart Mill

I agree with you that risk management belongs to the individual... and the individual, the child, in this case didn't have the option to decide risk management for itself...

Once the man on the motorcycle made a decision that could harm another, in this case the child, we can and should, rightfully exercise power over him...

You are correct to champion the rights of the individual, where you are wrong is that you don't see the individuality of the child...
`09 ZG-1400
Western Colorado

"It is not the business of government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of others" —Henry George

Offline lt1

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2011, 03:54:58 pm »
Then you will appreciate this quote as it fits what you are saying:

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise." – John Stuart Mill

I agree with you that risk management belongs to the individual... and the individual, the child, in this case didn't have the option to decide risk management for itself...

Once the man on the motorcycle made a decision that could harm another, in this case the child, we can and should, rightfully exercise power over him...

You are correct to champion the rights of the individual, where you are wrong is that you don't see the individuality of the child...

Let's start at the bottom.  I see the individuality of the child.  This child was not harmed.

We all make decisions every day that COULD harm another.  If that is your true criteria for seizing control of another's freedom, we are not anywhere close to agreement.  The correct criteria is actually harming another.   Every time any of us get in a motor vehicle, we have made a decision that could harm another, including little children.  Every time we overeat or under-exercise or smoke we risk a heart attack, which could harm another, especially if we have the heart attack while driving.  Every time we lie, or don't take our kids to church, or allow our kids to play with scissors, we have made a decision that COULD harm another.

I simply do not believe that you love that child more than her dad does.  I do not believe you have any right to make decisions for the child, nor for her father.  I do not believe that I have the right to control how you raise your children, even if I believe you are doing it wrong.  If I care about you, I will try to teach you a better way.  Society should only control behavior after harm has been done.  In the meantime, preach, teach, exhort and expound to your heart's content, but it is wrong to interfere with the freedom of mankind just because you think you are smarter or safer or wiser.

Again, both sides seem to be clear.  I have no hope that you will understand it any better now than before, but maybe some of the other reading this may seen the difference in our positions a bit clearer.
Eyes, Brain, Hands.  Repeat.

Offline roadkoan

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2011, 05:07:04 pm »
Most of the time I don't care what illegal activity you're into, as long as you're not violating or threatening someone else's rights. Then there will be a problem. This man was threatening his child's right to life, and you're damn straight I'm gonna report him, or you, or anyone else who threatens harm to others, just like I'd report a drunk driver.
You want to look the other way? Fine, it's your right to do so. If you come across the accident scene with a tiny body bag a few miles down the road, I hope your sanctimonious rationalization helps you sleep that night...
Mal! I'lm somewhat stunned to find us on the same side of this issue!   :goodpost: :thumbs:
At some point, you have to either claim the right to control other people, or you have to let it go.  IMO, it is better to teach, even though some will choose wrong.  Force vs persuasion.  Freedom vs subjection.
See Lt1, I believe that the majority of the rules (or at least in theory) are not so much made, as discovered. "Natural" laws like the laws of math or physics as opposed to "positive" laws concerning banking transactions.
And they are not per say "necessary"  for life, but for "civilization"?
To come inside the wall and into the city? you don't think its fair to have some agreed upon (or at least voted upon) standards of behavior?
Let's start at the bottom.  I see the individuality of the child.  This child was not harmed.

We all make decisions every day that COULD harm another.  If that is your true criteria for seizing control of another's freedom, we are not anywhere close to agreement.
So By this criteria should we only prosecute drunk drivers if they actually crash?



I simply do not believe that you love that child more than her dad does.
Don't assume that a parent is actually thinking about whats good for a child.
'02 C-10

Offline Mal

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2011, 07:28:31 am »
Let's start at the bottom.  I see the individuality of the child.  This child was not harmed.

We all make decisions every day that COULD harm another.  If that is your true criteria for seizing control of another's freedom, we are not anywhere close to agreement.  The correct criteria is actually harming another.   Every time any of us get in a motor vehicle, we have made a decision that could harm another, including little children.  Every time we overeat or under-exercise or smoke we risk a heart attack, which could harm another, especially if we have the heart attack while driving.  Every time we lie, or don't take our kids to church, or allow our kids to play with scissors, we have made a decision that COULD harm another.

That's quite the reach you have there, Lt...

Quote
I simply do not believe that you love that child more than her dad does.  I do not believe you have any right to make decisions for the child, nor for her father.  I do not believe that I have the right to control how you raise your children, even if I believe you are doing it wrong.  If I care about you, I will try to teach you a better way.  Society should only control behavior after harm has been done.  In the meantime, preach, teach, exhort and expound to your heart's content, but it is wrong to interfere with the freedom of mankind just because you think you are smarter or safer or wiser.

While I agree that no-one should have the right to tell anyone how to raise their children, that right ends when they intentionally place them in harm. Society has an obligation to prevent harm... not wait until the harm is done.

Quote
Again, both sides seem to be clear.  I have no hope that you will understand it any better now than before, but maybe some of the other reading this may seen the difference in our positions a bit clearer.

Oh, I understand perfectly where you are coming from, and we disagree on but one point, but I find your argument to be specious and an attempt to justify your specific outlook... children  have a right to their lives... and no one, not even the parent, has the right to threaten that right...
`09 ZG-1400
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"It is not the business of government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of others" —Henry George

Offline Mal

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2011, 07:30:59 am »

Mal! I'lm somewhat stunned to find us on the same side of this issue!   :goodpost: :thumbs:

Even a blind nut finds a squirrel once in a while...  ;)

Quote
See Lt1, I believe that the majority of the rules (or at least in theory) are not so much made, as discovered. "Natural" laws like the laws of math or physics as opposed to "positive" laws concerning banking transactions.
And they are not per say "necessary"  for life, but for "civilization"?
To come inside the wall and into the city? you don't think its fair to have some agreed upon (or at least voted upon) standards of behavior?

 :thumbs:

Quote
So By this criteria should we only prosecute drunk drivers if they actually crash?

Excellent analogy...

Quote
Don't assume that a parent is actually thinking about whats good for a child.

Indeed, some are only thinking of convenience...
`09 ZG-1400
Western Colorado

"It is not the business of government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of others" —Henry George

Offline sas mayhem

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2011, 06:09:05 pm »
Well I was out walking my dog today and a police car casually went by. So I flagged him down and talked to him about what I saw the other day.....and after he picked his jaw off the dash he said.. " In the state of NC that is a felony for child endangerment  period.  He went on to say "driving  around quite neighborhood would be even be frowned upon and/or get a ticket. ........."  " But on the highway there no different than putting a child on a hood of a car and going down the interstate...." he went on to say Child Services would have been called and he would have gone to jail... 4 to 6 yr at least...." .  He went on to say if I ever see something  like that again try to get a tag, pull over and call 911.  ....".You won't believe how many kids get killed or maimed...because a parent thought it was sooooo cute".

Cheers
Ron
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Offline lt1

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2011, 11:55:10 pm »
So my scenario was pretty close.  You'd go home feeling good about destroying a family.  The family is the basic unit of society, not the busybody.
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Offline Jet

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2011, 08:04:50 pm »
In Wake County, NC and the surrounding areas, unless he already had a criminal history, he would get probation, the jails are too full to do much more.  DSS would be involved with the family for some time however. 
...and a good time was had by all.

Offline Mal

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2011, 12:08:17 pm »
So my scenario was pretty close.  You'd go home feeling good about destroying a family.  The family is the basic unit of society, not the busybody.

The ultimate responsibility lies with the father, as he made the choice to commit a felony and endanger his child...
`09 ZG-1400
Western Colorado

"It is not the business of government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of others" —Henry George

Offline okxd45

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2011, 05:38:26 pm »
 :popcorn:  subscribe.
Jeff
"Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't." Macbeth Quote (Act I, Scene V).
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Offline Awaz

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2011, 10:51:19 am »
Lt1's comments were over my head. Too philosophical for my tiny head to comprehend. So I am not even gonna try to re-read to understand. What I got so far, is that calling the policy because that guy is endangering his child will tantamount to encroaching on his freedom and his freewill on how to raise his kids (and hence in general to the whole concept of freedom). Hmmm....wondering if we should convert society to the wild wild west - everyone was pretty much looking out for themselves. If you got issues, your six shooter does the talking. If I got this whole thing wrong, apologize.

Lt1's comments aside, my personal feeling is that I sure heck would not want him to endanger someone else's life. That whole scenario of highway driving with a kid on the gas tank tells me that guy is not fit to be a parent. Now, that is my personal opinion and I am entitled to it. But I am with folks that will call the cops on him with whole heart.

As for the comment on spanking kids on grocery store, I am not against some discipline as long as you do not cross the line and beat your kid blue. But I frown when you spank in public. If your kid is really misbehaving and really deserve a spanking, taking him/her to your car or to the bathroom and do it. Just my thought.

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Offline tidewatergirl

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2011, 08:02:25 pm »
Absolutely correct Awaz .....my kids are terrified of public bathrooms to this day and they are in their 30's LOL ....I told him early on in life that I don't do bail for "stupid" either.  As a good friend of mine likes to say "case closed".......
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Offline T Cro ®

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2011, 08:16:04 pm »
....I told him early on in life that I don't do bail for "stupid" either.

My Dad used to tell me that if I called from jail he would ask me how was the food; good thing I never had to find out if he was bluffing or not. Mom was a little softer she came got me the first time I crossed the line at 14......  :P
Tony P. Crochet
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Offline Awaz

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Re: I need to vent about this......
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2011, 08:12:53 am »
My Dad used to tell me that if I called from jail he would ask me how was the food; good thing I never had to find out if he was bluffing or not. Mom was a little softer she came got me the first time I crossed the line at 14......  :P

LOL at your father's comment ! But I absolutely agree with him !

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