Author Topic: How many was that?? Rear wheel bearing failure.  (Read 42030 times)

Offline jamiemac

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 12:22:37 pm »
Is it possible it may be the impacts from the two accidents the bike was involved in, that caused this?
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Offline Conrad

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 12:24:43 pm »
I think the contact name is Marco in Italy ::) .

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Offline ugocon

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 12:25:49 pm »
Yeah, contact centers are the same all over the world!  ;D

I just spoke to Valerio on the phone and he confirmed that is the bearing
I also was doubtful if the small accidents he had could have had a role in this or if the mechanic had removed and mounted badly the rear wheel, but he excluded it.
He also told me that Kawasaki has already asked for the frame number of the bike.
Let's see... things are moving on.
 
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Offline mike-s4

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2012, 12:34:09 pm »
Looks like good old pressure washer damage to the bearing. The grease gets washed out and the bearing self destructs. MGvalerioi's bike always looked nice and clean!
Bearings are cheap and easy to change. He's lucky it did not cause an accident.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: How many was that??
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2012, 12:57:12 pm »
It looks to me like the right axle bearing fried (horrifically overheated) and lost some of the needle rollers inside it. The interesting thing about those videos is that the rear wheel jumps out of alignment on the second revolution of the wheel, not each revolution. That indicates to me that what is left of the bearing is still rotating (probably just the needle retainer now and <maybe> a needle or two) and causing the oscillation to be out of time with the rear wheel. It also looks like the hub side of the rear wheel is supporting the rear wheel and causing it to turn pretty steadily and straight until the side- force from the brake application pulls the wheel away from that axis of rotation. I am not sure if this message will translate into Italian gracefully but I do not know how to make it much simpler and keep the meaning intact. ??

That bike is going to need a bunch of parts, perhaps including parts or even an entire new drive hub depending on how hot it got in there. The right axle mount is clearly shot as it badly overheated when the actual failure (I think bearing failure) happened. No doubt a new axle will be needed.

The usual mode of failure for wheel bearings is that the seal fails to seal, then contaminates enter the bearing itself and finally the bearing fails (rather than wears out). My 2008 C-14 is in need of a new rear wheel seal right now as a matter of fact. The wheel bearing is still fine but it won't stay that way for long unless sealed from water and road dust. By the way, I have replaced the front wheel bearing seals twice already on this bike and it is coming up on needing a set of front seals again, probably next summer.

I am not much for yelling about safety or becoming overly concerned about reasonably normal noises, wear, etc. but that is WAY, WAY outside of the normal envelope and needs to be fixed before riding the bike. Not sure how this will translate either but what you have there is NOT a Mary Jane Tinklepants situation.

Best of luck getting it fixed, and also good luck getting the factory to repair it. Not sure what Kawasaki's stance is going to be about this but it will be interesting to hear how it goes.

Brian


Trying to figure out what happened, new frames at the end of video.

http://youtu.be/TlLTAePregI


MGvalerio. :-[
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2012, 01:07:23 pm »
Looks like good old pressure washer damage to the bearing. The grease gets washed out and the bearing self destructs. MGvalerioi's bike always looked nice and clean!
Bearings are cheap and easy to change. He's lucky it did not cause an accident.

Absolutely no good comes from washing a bike...

 :offtopic:   I was in Fredericksburg today picking up a Soda Stream CO2 bottle today.  I had parked on an incline and was just about ready to leave when a gentleman stops and says 'nice....' and I can see he is thinking about what to call it and I stop him right there and say 'If you saw BMW, I'm going to have to kill you'.  I get a smile and he nods his head.  Then he says it looks really nice.  I smile back knowing that it hasn't been washed in at least 8 months or so and say 'Yeah, I keep it pretty clean' and then off I go chuckling all the while and thanking myself for buying a silverish bike that doesn't show the dirt...life is good.  No pressure washer for me.  I think I might hire my grandson to wash it next spring but only if it needs it.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2012, 01:14:29 pm »
Snip...

I am not much for yelling about safety or becoming overly concerned about reasonably normal noises, wear, etc. but that is WAY, WAY outside of the normal envelope and needs to be fixed before riding the bike. Not sure how this will translate either but what you have there is NOT a Mary Jane Tinklepants situation.

Brian

Non sono molto per gridare di sicurezza o diventare eccessivamente preoccupato per rumori ragionevolmente normale, usura, ecc., ma che è via, via, di fuori della dotazione normale e deve essere risolto prima di guidare la moto. Non sono sicuro come questo si tradurrà sia ma quello che hai lì non è una situazione di Mary Jane Tinklepants.     ;D
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Offline ugocon

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Re: How many was that??
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2012, 01:18:27 pm »
It looks to me like the right axle bearing fried (horrifically overheated) and lost some of the needle rollers inside it. The interesting thing about those videos is that the rear wheel jumps out of alignment on the second revolution of the wheel, not each revolution. That indicates to me that what is left of the bearing is still rotating (probably just the needle retainer now and <maybe> a needle or two) and causing the oscillation to be out of time with the rear wheel. It also looks like the hub side of the rear wheel is supporting the rear wheel and causing it to turn pretty steadily and straight until the side- force from the brake application pulls the wheel away from that axis of rotation. I am not sure if this message will translate into Italian gracefully but I do not know how to make it much simpler and keep the meaning intact. ??

That bike is going to need a bunch of parts, perhaps including parts or even an entire new drive hub depending on how hot it got in there. The right axle mount is clearly shot as it badly overheated when the actual failure (I think bearing failure) happened. No doubt a new axle will be needed.

The usual mode of failure for wheel bearings is that the seal fails to seal, then contaminates enter the bearing itself and finally the bearing fails (rather than wears out). My 2008 C-14 is in need of a new rear wheel seal right now as a matter of fact. The wheel bearing is still fine but it won't stay that way for long unless sealed from water and road dust. By the way, I have replaced the front wheel bearing seals twice already on this bike and it is coming up on needing a set of front seals again, probably next summer.

I am not much for yelling about safety or becoming overly concerned about reasonably normal noises, wear, etc. but that is WAY, WAY outside of the normal envelope and needs to be fixed before riding the bike. Not sure how this will translate either but what you have there is NOT a Mary Jane Tinklepants situation.

Best of luck getting it fixed, and also good luck getting the factory to repair it. Not sure what Kawasaki's stance is going to be about this but it will be interesting to hear how it goes.

Brian

Its exactly what it seems to me from the video.
Don't need to translate because that's what I just told valerio on the phone.
My concern is that Valerio knows his bike better than most of C14 owners and he never felt a typical behaviour of a bearing worn out because of dust or lack of grease.
He just noticed in his last trip that he was having an abnormal slightly higher than usual fuel waste (figure how sensitive he is ;)  ) and that when he slowed down on a winding road he heard a very feeble abnormal sound.
Luckily he stopped to check the rear wheel and noticed the disaster: one more cm of metal left and a pit hole or a higher speed could have caused a dramatic accident.
He had to call a towing truck to (slowly) bring back home his beloved bike  :(
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Offline mike-s4

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2012, 01:19:46 pm »
The rear wheel bearings are # 6304 UU. The UU means sealed both sides. 6304-2rs is the same(2 rubber seals..) It is a standard deep groove radial ball bearing. (no needles)  They are sold at any industrial supply . Lots of them on ebay for around 5 dollars.  Bearings last as long as the seals keep contamination out .
Pressure washing is the worst  thing to do to a bearing. That thing must have been making plenty of grinding/rumbling noise for a while. Surprised he didn't hear it. 

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2012, 01:28:39 pm »
Sometimes noise build up gradually and you don't 'hear' them until it's too late.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2012, 04:11:57 pm »
Mia Culpa- I assumed they were needle bearings. Thanks for correcting that mistake.

Still though, the mode of failure and the results are the same as they would be for a needle bearing.

I agree completely about the seal failure leading to bearing failures, at least in such low speed use as something like a motorcycle wheel bearing. And while I also agree with the fact that the bearings are sealed from both sides, the real job of sealing the bearings in this application is the lip seal that is installed just beyond the bearing itself inside the wheel's hub. Once that lip seal fails it is only a matter of time before the smaller, less durable bearing seal(s) fail and debris finds its way into the bearing races.

By the way, for anyone who might be interested, the easiest way to tell if a lip seal is still functioning is to see if it holds the part that it seals against; if the from wheel axle spacers on a motorcycle are not held in place by the lip seals when the wheel is turned sideways then they are failing to seal the bearing behind them.

Brian


The rear wheel bearings are # 6304 UU. The UU means sealed both sides. 6304-2rs is the same(2 rubber seals..) It is a standard deep groove radial ball bearing. (no needles)  They are sold at any industrial supply . Lots of them on ebay for around 5 dollars.  Bearings last as long as the seals keep contamination out .
Pressure washing is the worst  thing to do to a bearing. That thing must have been making plenty of grinding/rumbling noise for a while. Surprised he didn't hear it.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: How many was that??
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2012, 04:15:43 pm »
Thanks for letting us know that the information made it along to Valerio.

I am not really surprised that he did not notice the bearing fail because it happens all the time on the front end of autos; by the time the bearing(s) make any noise or in any make themselves known, they are simply destroyed and have been for some time. I have seen some really amazing hub failures that gave no real warning before actually being destroyed. The same thing goes for brake pads- sometimes when the pad material is worn away brakes will make noise immediately while other times the steel backing plates happily grind their way into the rotors with the vehicle acting amazingly normal.

Brian

Its exactly what it seems to me from the video.
Don't need to translate because that's what I just told valerio on the phone.
My concern is that Valerio knows his bike better than most of C14 owners and he never felt a typical behaviour of a bearing worn out because of dust or lack of grease.
He just noticed in his last trip that he was having an abnormal slightly higher than usual fuel waste (figure how sensitive he is ;)  ) and that when he slowed down on a winding road he heard a very feeble abnormal sound.
Luckily he stopped to check the rear wheel and noticed the disaster: one more cm of metal left and a pit hole or a higher speed could have caused a dramatic accident.
He had to call a towing truck to (slowly) bring back home his beloved bike  :(
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Scaffolder

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2012, 04:28:46 pm »
Looks expensive!!!
Joel from Maine.

Offline Rhino

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2012, 04:43:59 pm »
Even if the bearings failed why does it look so messed up at the axle and swing arm? Could a bearing have seized and spun the axle? Then un-seized?

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: How many was that?? Rear axle shaft seizing?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2012, 05:23:07 pm »
I have not seen the bike in person of course so just going by the videos.... it looks like the axle may have 'carved' a slot in the right hand support of the swingarm. The axle is riding in the top of that slot under no load conditions and actually does not look too bad until he applies the rear brake. The rear brake introduces a new force making the wheel and axle try to move away from the brake caliper and move out of the slot a bit. It would seem that there are pieces of the rear wheel bearing friction welded to something internally (the axle or perhaps the outer race of what is left of the wheel bearing) so that the axle then bumps into that part (those pieces?) on the way around and that is what is kicking the rear wheel away from the axis it is originally trying to turn on. Again, just a guess on my part based on the photos and videos that I have seen. One thing that I think is very certain is that a catastrophic failure has taken place in the rear wheel's hub and the damage is now probably spread beyond the hub itself. For example, with the wheel bumping off axis like that when the brake is applied, it is possible and maybe even likely that the rear rotor is now bent.

Brian


Even if the bearings failed why does it look so messed up at the axle and swing arm? Could a bearing have seized and spun the axle? Then un-seized?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com