Author Topic: I will not run away  (Read 14606 times)

Offline Necron99

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 11:16:33 am »
That's it.  Thanks, Conrad.
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Offline ARS

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 01:37:35 pm »
Too sad for words.  If you took a super magnet and sucked up all of the guns in the world and melted them down, we still be stuck with evil people in the world and they'd find another tool to do their deeds.  Why is it when these atrocities happen rarely do we hear of the "sheepdog" coming to the rescue?. . .
. . .because in the rare cases where it does happen it gets buried and twisted such as the Virginia Tech shootings where ~280 newspapers didn't mention that 2 students ran to there cars to get their guns to finally put a stop to the killings.  Only 4 papers mentioned it!!  If you're anti-gun it goes against your grain to credit guns for saving lives.
Train the teachers (the stable ones) and arm them so the can open carry.
For those who carry and are properly trained, you carry not to protect just yourself, but to protect others.  Run towards the evil.

Offline CRocker

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 07:07:15 pm »
And give credit to the unarmed teachers holed up in storage rooms or bathrooms with their students...after the shooting had stopped...when the police knocked on those doors and said "Police, it's OK to come out"...the teachers said "NO!  Prove to me you are the police!"  True defenders of a belief will fight with whatever they have at hand...and, while they had no weapons to battle the intruder, they didn't just unlock the doors...they went all the way to protect their students...they deserve the highest praise...my heart is broken by what happened first...and, yet, lifted by what happened second...and, to all the victims, families, responders, and all those affected by this horrible act...I will pray for each and every one of you.
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Offline Boomer343

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 01:35:05 am »
In 1993 I was given the responsibility of developing a school emergency plan for a high school with a student and staff population of over 900.

More than once I found myself thinking about the reluctance of the automotive industry to put in effective safety devices. They didn't want to scare the public into thinking cars were unsafe and just wanted to sell the smiles. I met with more than a few people who didn't really think an emergency plan for a school should go much beyond fire drills so that everyone could be happy in their belief that schools would never be a target or that it couldn't happen "here".

I quickly learned to start my conversations and presentations with the declaration that our school was a safe place based on incident reports and stakeholder interviews.

But .... we needed to consider worse case scenarios. One of the questions raised was who do you open the door for after a lockdown or emergency situation. That young teacher who was protectiong her students in a washroom did everything right in demanding proof and more proof.

I know in every school there are teachers and staff who would do all they could to protect their students from harm. The recognition of threats and the planned response is proven once again to save lives. From that perspective the planning worked.....but there is a terrible price to pay to find that out.

Having been in a few situations and having had to consider many others I have an idea how I will react and work to protect and help both myself and others.

Steve, that makes at least two of us!


 







 

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 06:25:01 am »
"I will not run away" is a developed mindset. While it's always been my personality to run to a bad event in the hopes I can help, I have to say that I never considered what I'd do in an "active shooter" situation. As of the latest shootings, my family has sat down and worked up plans of action. If we have a plan, we're not left standing. wondering what to do. My wife and daughters' plan includes taking cover, escape, hiding, etc, depending on their circumstance at that moment. Mine is to run to the problem. I'll asess as I go, but I'm going. We're training our minds, that's all. Like not applying brakes on ice, sometimes your training has to overcome your immediate reaction. I'm glad to see others feel the same as I do, it IS what I expected. We need to get the word out with our friends that our strength is in our numbers, and acting as a cohesive element to protect others. And I pray that I'm never faced with having to act on this, or that anyone ever has to. Steve

Offline julianop

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 09:53:15 am »
"...We need to get the word out with our friends that our strength is in our numbers, and acting as a cohesive element to protect others...."

In personal situations we may not have the benefit of numbers, but our strength and our effectiveness will be in our unflinching recognition of our responsibilities, in our resolve and in our preparedness.

I didn't grow up in this armed culture, so the issue of armed attacks was never an issue to me. I started thinking about it when I moved to this country thirty years ago; and an armed incident started becoming the stuff of nightmares, looming in my subconscious - and now conscious - memory ever since my first child was born nineteen years ago. I own no guns, but I think many times of where the knives are in the house, of what other objects might be called into action as a weapon, and what my defense strategy would be, were our house breached. Bullets travel easily through walls, so I'm not sure what I could do against an armed  assailant, but at least I now have an alarm system in the house to give my family warning and to call police, and I know what and where the "weapons-grade domestic artifacts" are. There is more I should do, though, and I am now stirred to action, though admittedly without much of a clue.

I should say here, as a point of history, that while I grew up in England - a tamer culture than this one - I joined, as part of my high school education, the "CCF" or "Combined Cadet Force" - a military cadet group ran by masters of the school who had, back in the 60's, some military background. We had a firing range in the basement of the school, and among our many para-military exercises (they were trying to prepare us for commissioned officer-duty, it being a top streamed school, trying to turn out little gentlemen) I learned to shoot .22 and .303, and earned First Class rating in the latter, though I didn't quite make Marksman. I am respectful of guns, but I remain very wary of them when they are in the hands of somebody I don't know and trust.

Back to my point. The aching problem for me, is that I see people arming themselves and thinking they are safe. You can't sit in your armchair, loaded gun in hand, looking at every door and window in the house twenty four hours a day. It is dangerous to imagine scenarios in one's mind, fantasize about deftly snatching up the pistol that just happens to be sitting conveniently beside us, and efficiently dispatching the idiot who made the unfortunate mistake to pick the wrong house and who inexplicably wasn't expecting the owner to be armed. It's a comforting thought, but things just don't work the way we imagine them.

The same is true for schools. Do you better mentally prepare mild-mannered teachers who spend every working day of their lives with smiling little children by equipping them with weapons in the classroom? How do you arm a teacher or a classroom such that a weapon is readily available in seconds in a time of need, yet completely out of the way of inquisitive children? Further, arming teachers means that all would-be attackers now have the bar raised for them, and would go in a school even more prepared. They would go straight for the teacher in any classroom. I am not convinced that such a well-meaning reaction would provide the benefit we imagine. Again, there is great danger in imagining that the situation would transpire as we would wish it.

I'm not at all saying that we shouldn't take preparatory action. I totally agree with you, Steve, that the best possible preparation is the steeling of the mind, learning to keep our minds and eyes open in the skid on the ice, to use your excellent metaphor. It is our mental training and our conviction to be there and to be effective when needed that will be our best potential contribution. After all, any fool crazy and twisted enough to attack a school of kids has certainly contemplated exactly what he is going to do, and is well prepared, and in that he has the advantage every time. Our preparation must not simply be enactment, playing through a fantastic Cowboys and Indians movie in our minds eye; it must include thinking through being in real, mortal danger ourselves.

As motorcyclists we have that certain mindset wherein we do what we do despite full knowledge of the dangers, and as such we are, as a group, statistically more likely to have sheepdog mindsets, at least in embryonic form. I hope so. We are at least conscious of the risk of severe injury and, while aware and respectful, we are essentially unafraid of it. We achieve that state of mind by our preparedness - by the "ATGATT" mentality, for example. And I hope that we all, individually, take stock of what we are inside, of what we can and should do to prepare ourselves for that rare and unfortunate event when we are called upon to act in the defense of others, and when our mettle is tested.

Julian.
Elk River, MN.
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Offline midnightrider

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 02:49:32 pm »
Copied from an email I recieved from Front Sight Training Institute,

For Immediate Release: Friday, December 14, 2012
 
Dear Carl,

Please Forward to Your Local Newspapers, Radio Stations, and Television News Stations

Subject: Gun School For Teachers

Las Vegas, Nevada: In the wake of the yet another senseless school massacre, I ask all our politicians, law enforcement officials, and school administrators one simply question:

WHEN ARE WE GOING TO WAKE UP AS A NATION AND PROTECT OUR CHILDREN?

How many more children have to die before we will find the testicular fortitude, as a nation, to put in place REAL policies that will stop a deranged gunman in his tracks, before he can commit mass murder on innocent and defenseless children?

How many times do I have to offer the nation THE solution?

What the hell is wrong with the leaders of our country? Find a pair, and make the RIGHT decision to protect our children, not more of the wrong decisions that create the opportunity for the next lunatic to murder at will with zero resistance!

Once again, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, arguably the world leader in providing intensified courses in the defensive use of firearms for private citizens, has the answer to stopping further attacks on school children. Front Sight will once again offer free firearms training to any school administrator, teachers, or full time staff members designated as school Safety Monitors.

Front Sight will accept for training up to three staff members from each school, college or university.

Applicants must submit a letter requesting training on school letterhead signed by the top school district official and designating the applicant as the school's Safety Monitor.

Please forward this e-mail to your state and federal legislators, local law enforcement departments and your child's school administrator, as well as your friends and family, asking them to do the same.

Guns and Teachers

As Front Sight's Founder and Director, I understand my offer to train armed school teachers may offend some school administrators and parents who do not see arming and training selected school staff members as a positive solution to violent attacks. However, historically, my approach has worked while gun control has actually increased violent crime by shifting the balance of power to favor the criminals and lunatics.

My offer is not a new idea. In the early 70's, Israel was faced with much greater problems of armed terrorist attacks on schools. The cry for more gun control was heard then too, but Israel very carefully analyzed all possible options before adopting the proactive position of arming and training their teachers. School shootings stopped and terrorists looked for easier targets. Gun control never has and never will stop criminals and madmen from carrying out acts of gun violence.

In our country, every time a misguided individual on psychiatric drugs goes on a killing spree, anti self-defense legislators, watch the polls and exploit the dead victims in order to fool the public into accepting more gun control. It is time our country finds some resolve and the will to tackle the real problem, which is rooting out the actual influences in the lives people hat predispose them to commit atrocities. The problem is not guns. Guns don't cause these incidents to occur any more than cameras cause child pornography or automobiles cause traffic fatalities.

Israel had the right answer. Society is safer when we train and arm our law abiding citizens. As the defensive training leader in the USA, Front Sight is willing and able to set the example for the rest of the country to follow.

Armed Teachers

Dave Clark, who recently retired after teaching for the last 25 years at Junction Junior High School in Livermore, California agrees with Front Sight's philosophy. In fact, Mr. Clark has previously attended a Four Day Defensive Handgun course at Front Sight at his own expense and found the course to be exactly what is needed to train fellow teachers to stop an attack similar to Columbine school and Virginia Tech. "Front Sight provides safe and responsible training to a level that exceeds law enforcement standards." Says Mr. Clark. "Among the many lessons taught, I learned universally accepted rules in justifiable use of deadly force. More importantly, I learned when not to shoot and how to be more mentally prepared to see a lethal confrontation coming before it happens in order to avoid it. The firearms training is second to none and clearly gives the graduates the skill needed to save the lives of those in their charge if ever attacked. If my school district chose to adopt a policy of sending selected teachers to Front Sight for concealed handgun training, I would wholeheartedly support it and volunteer as a Safety Monitor. There is no reason for our children to continue to be victimized when free, professional training is available to stop school attacks."

Guns in Schools

There is evidence that a gun in the hand of a teacher will stop an armed attacker. The vice-principal of a school in Pearl, Mississippi used his handgun to stop and detain an armed killer until the police arrived. It seems obvious that armed and trained staff members inside the school are in a better position to identify the attackers and do something immediately to resolve the situation. It is much harder for police, who arrive on the scene too late to stop the killing.

Lawmakers With Blood on Their Hands

An obstacle to training and arming teachers is the current law in many states prohibiting the possession of firearms on school grounds even when the possessor is qualified and has a concealed weapons license.

Understand that those laws did not prevent or stop the gun violence at numerous schools over the last ten years. The brazen attacks in school after school during the last decade indicate criminals have concluded that 'Gun-Free-School-Zone' actually means 'Government Certified, Helpless and Unarmed Victim Zone.'

Schools Can't Afford to Pass on No Cost Security

Most school districts cannot afford to have even one full time police officer in every school, but they can easily afford to train three or more of their selected staff members to a higher level of firearms training than offered in police academies because Front Sight will provide the training at no cost.

Retired law enforcement firearms instructor, Mike Waidelich from Bakersfield, California strongly supports the Front Sight concept of arming and training teachers. "Nearly every tragedy on or off school grounds in the entire 30 years of my law enforcement career could have been prevented or the damage done considerably limited, by the presence of an armed and trained individual."
 
Concealed Guns

The training provided in Front Sight's basic training classes easily exceeds the training provided in most police basic training academies.

Front Sight proved it on their nationally televised reality series Front Sight Challenge. 80 Seasoned law enforcement officers from around the country went head-to-head in tests of marksmanship, speed and tactics against 80 private citizens-- including teachers-- who had not received any training other than Front Sight's firearms courses. Remarkably, the Front Sight trained, private citizens won over half of every contest.

Teachers will be trained to carry a concealed weapon, so potential attackers will not know which teachers are armed and which are not. In states that have adopted concealed weapon laws for private citizens, violent crime has dropped. School attacks will drop as well once it is known that any of the teachers and staff members on school grounds have the ability and training to stop a violent attack immediately.

There is also scientific research that supports Front Sight's stance on concealed weapon training from John Lott, Jr. at University of Chicago School of Law who published Crime, Deterrence and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns in July 1996. Mr. Lott's research of cross-sectional time-series data from all 3054 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992 found that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crime and appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed handgun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly.

Gun Control Increases Violent Crime

How many times must we experience another Littleton, Colorado or Virginia Tech or Newtown Connecticut massacre before we wake up, study the research and adopt policies which actually reduce crime and begin saving our children instead of leaving them helpless victims when the next psych drug user snaps?

Gun control increases violent crime yet some politicians continue to tout disarming law abiding citizens as a solution. Front Sight has a better solution.

Arm and train school teachers to carry a concealed weapon. And post a DIFFERENT sign outside of ever school!
 
Look for the RIGHT sign all over America. They are in front of the homes of armed and trained Front Sight students. If you were a deranged murderer, which house would you invade? One with an armed and trained occupant with a Front Sight sign or one who had a "Gun Free Zone" sign in his yard? The answer is simply to any rational person.
 
WHY ARE SCHOOLS ANY DIFFERENT?

Don't have a sign? Get one here: http://www.readytodefend.com/frontsight/

It is time WE WAKE UP and start providing REAL protection for our children in schools. Front Sight stands ready, willing and able to train every teacher in America if that is what it takes! Help us protect your children by demanding YOUR school send their teachers to Front Sight!

Sincerely,

Dr. Ignatius Piazza
 Founder and Director
 Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
 7975 Cameron Drive, #900
 Windsor, CA 95492
http://www.frontsight.com
info@frontsight.com
1.800.987.7719
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Offline stevewfl

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 03:23:01 pm »




Depends on if you ask a liberal or anyone else
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Offline Awaz

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 03:26:00 pm »
My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.

I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 03:46:52 pm »
I do not have a CCL as of right now but I will be applying for one after the first of the year, and jumping through all the hoops that Mass. requires you to jump through to get one.

Then Steve ... I too, will not run away.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2012, 03:54:06 pm »
My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.

I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.


I'm fine with denying firearms to people that have shown they cannot be trusted such as felons or someone certified mentally ill and a danger to others by a board certified doctor. Such is already the case in this country and most of the world. But what you are advocating is a "guilty until proven innocent" type of law. I have never met any of my police chief's. How would they have any idea of my competence? Did this guy have any prior offenses or indications that he was a monster? I know from personal experience that people can show absolutely no evidence of violent tendencies and then one day murder 2 people out of the blue.

You Already have to have a background check and have training to carry concealed in all states that have concealed carry permits except Vermont. In Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey you have to have a license to buy a gun. It is prohibited for anyone other then police to carry a gun into a school in Connecticut and in most states. At Columbine I read that 18 firearms laws were broken before one shot was fired. Laws only deter the law abiding and reasonable. The worst school massacre in the US occurred on May 18, 1927, 44 dead and 58 injured and he didn't use a gun to do it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe

IMHO there is no perfect solution. But we must first understand that in a free society we are by definition a soft target. Better that than a police state. Second, at least allow teachers willing to get training and a background check to carry at school. My Son is a teacher in a middle school. He has extensive training and a holder of a CCW permit. He is not even allowed to have a weapon in his truck in the parking lot. Tell me how that is helpful.

Offline Snibbor

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2012, 04:22:53 pm »
My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.

I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.

It has been reported (by the lib media) that the individual (Adam?) in Conn attepted to purchase a firearm a few days before the attack but was denied.  It was also reported (again by the lib media) that the Oregon shooter stole the firearms he used.  Banning arms isn't going to stop a thing.  There are millions of them in this country (a fair share owned by me :D).  You can't confiscate them all, way too many would resist.
I hate to say it, but there is no way to prevent human violence.  It's been happening since the dawn of time.  But I do want the ability/opportunity to confront it.

Offline paulthibodeaux

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2012, 04:53:30 pm »
Before Madelin Murray Ohare and one LIBERAL judge took prayer out of school, this kind of thing did not happen.
Just think, one armed person could have stopped.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2012, 06:25:59 pm »
Here's my suggestion - Several folks at each school are probably willing to step up and be the sheepdogs. In order to do so, they must gain their ccw licence - THEN AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE take a class / program developed by law enforcement to be an active shooter immediate responder. Those who pass are then put on the "allowed" list for the given school they have business with. Example - My daughter is in high school. I go to her school for issues / programs, and sports. I would be "on the list" if I jumped the hoops I outlined.
  I also want the person who is "stepping up" to be financially responsible for the training to weed out the wannabe's, or those who are "questionable". The vetting process can / should be more stringent also.

  Keep in mind that the reason police respond - and the reason we want them to respond - is because they are armed, and society trusts them. there are other good, trustworthy people among us who are not police, but are cut from the same cloth. This should be recognized and embraced. The civilian force is much larger, and much more likely to respond more rapidly.

  As far as these unnamed cowards are concerned, all that stuff about them  being "more prepared" is hogwash. If they were willing to "fight" they wouldn't choose movie theaters and first graders. Deny them their names (no infamy, just anonymity)  and let them know that bullets are coming back at them. I bet things will change. Steve
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 07:18:41 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »

Offline Awaz

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2012, 09:02:43 pm »
Here's my suggestion - Several folks at each school are probably willing to step up and be the sheepdogs. In order to do so, they must gain their ccw licence - THEN AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE take a class / program developed by law enforcement to be an active shooter immediate responder. Those who pass are then put on the "allowed" list for the given school they have business with. Example - My daughter is in high school. I go to her school for issues / programs, and sports. I would be "on the list" if I jumped the hoops I outlined.
  I also want the person who is "stepping up" to be financially responsible for the training to weed out the wannabe's, or those who are "questionable". The vetting process can / should be more stringent also.

  Keep in mind that the reason police respond - and the reason we want them to respond - is because they are armed, and society trusts them. there are other good, trustworthy people among us who are not police, but are cut from the same cloth. This should be recognized and embraced. The civilian force is much larger, and much more likely to respond more rapidly.

  As far as these unnamed cowards are concerned, all that stuff about them  being "more prepared" is hogwash. If they were willing to "fight" they wouldn't choose movie theaters and first graders. Deny them their names (no infamy, just anonymity)  and let them know that bullets are coming back at them. I bet things will change. Steve

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of training selected teachers just like you would a cop and have them conceal carry - these shooting kids gotta stop. And I like both your thoughts - denying these morons media coverage so another moron do not think they get their fame-infamy via such a means.
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