Author Topic: Linked Brakes Fixed  (Read 51206 times)

Offline C1xRider

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2013, 10:26:20 am »
The service manual doesn't give ANY details of the inner workings of the ABS Control Unit. The only way to find out is to take one apart. I've been looking on ebay, but all of the ones that I'm seeing listed are for the 08's & 09's.

Ok... I've been thinking about this issue some more.  :o  :banghead:  :stirpot:

I’m thinking that if you tie the two lines at the ABS unit that go to the front brakes together with a "T" or "Y" fitting. Then tie from the other side of the "T" or "Y" fitting to the front port of the ABS unit and block off the 2nd port for the front, you "may" un-link the breaks AND still have ABS to both wheels. The reason I think that the second port of the ABS Control Unit from the front of the bike should be the one blocked is because that port isn't there on the ABS Control Unit of C-14's that don't have linked brakes (2008-09 ABS models (can't remember if the linked brakes started with 2010 or 2011?)). My reasoning behind this is I “think” that one of the lines that feeds one of the front calipers is common (fluid path wise) with the rear.

 Now this may only unlink for what is called the low link setting (less aggressive setting) as the high link setting (I believe) sends fluid to both front calipers when the rear is applied.

Anyway, this is just my theory and without having an ABS Control Unit out of the bike to look at its inner workings, it's only a theory.

That's a very good theory, at least to unlink the front when applying the rear brakes.  Since the '10 and newer only apply pressure to the right front calliper when applying pressure to the rear, that "should" remove it from the equation.  I can vouch for that last sentence because my right rotor is thinner than my left rotor, probably because I've been running in "High Combined" mode exclusively for the last 25K+ miles, and I *use* my brakes.

As for unlinking the rear when the front brakes are applied, I don't see how this would solve it, but since the rear doesn't seem to be as obnoxiously linked as the fronts, it may be acceptable. 

This is a worthwhile enough idea, that I'm going to look around and see if I have the parts.  I hate opening up the brake system (due to the chance of introducing air bubbles that don't want to leave), but like many, I dislike the linked brakes even more.

After reading this last night, I was wondering about simply using an ABS unit from an 08/09.  Has anyone looked into that?
--------------------   BACK UP YOUR DISKS PEOPLE!! -------------------------------
2010 C14 ABS 8), 2002 HD FXSTDI, 2000 XT350, 1998 C10, 1983 V65 Magna, 1978 HD SX250

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 12:40:21 pm »
You can't have mine.  I like it.

Seems the 08/09 bikes are going up in value....
"LOCTITE®"  The original thread locker...  #11  08-C14 EA FC ABS 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology (sold).  U.N.I.T is Back!  2016 Indian Roadmaster.

Offline Kinetic1

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 12:49:26 pm »
I highly doubt the combined/ linked effect is a function of pressure. That would be way too inconsistent to meet Kawasaki's standards. I am betting it is electrical in nature. Just a hunch.
No, really, she is the best and I can prove it...

Connie has been sold. Replaced with 2013 Aprilia Tuono V4 APRC

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2013, 11:20:53 am »
I emailed Guhl about a reflash and asked about killing the linked brakes. He said it wasn't in the engine ECU. There may be other ECU's but I doubt there is knowledge of them like there is of the engine, as people mod the engine ECU all the time, thus there is a market for it and detailed knowledge of it.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2013, 11:22:30 am »
Can I get a parts list to do this mod, Randy?  I am ready to start tearing into this.  I will be guinea pig #2, which is way easier than guinea pig #1.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2013, 11:58:50 am »
I can't exactly say a parts list other than it was 2 in Qty. of an M10 x 1.0 bleeder adapter plus a rear brake line from a non ABS C-14 to go straight from rear master cylinder to caliper. I got it all from Galfer. See photo. Remember, it has to have an inverted flare to mate properly. The flare I did myself on a lathe, but a regular drill could be used. I'd say get an extra in case you goof one.

I am in the process of trying to decide exactly how to do another variation where The Pope mentioned splitting the line that goes to left front caliper so it goes to both and then blocking the right front line out of the ABS block. I think I'll have to have a custom line made. Dong this, in theory, should give me back ABS on the rear when I reconnect the rear lines. I find it all interesting to play with.

I forgot about the possibility of not replacing the rear line but to disconnect it from the ABS block and to connect the original lines together with another hose section (part # 43095-0559). It would probably be easier to do it that way than to pull all the stock rear brake lines out.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 12:46:45 pm by RandyN »

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2013, 08:50:06 pm »
You say you "got it from Galfer".  Galfer only deals with dealers, not straight with individuals?   Or did you just call them up?

Here's a screenshot of the Ron Ayers site of a 2010 non-ABS rear master cylinder, note the hose goes from the rear caliper to the top of the master cylinder (A)
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2013, 09:28:38 pm »
Here's a 2012. Note that the fluid goes from the rear caliper, up to "northwest" then goes into hard line C, which attaches to the ABS module

Out of the ABS module comes line B, which attaches to the top of the master cylinder
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 10:06:13 am »
Yes, I got the part from Galfer. I assumed they sold direct and they did. The part I bought was about $55 and the OEM at RIVA's site is $95.08. After reconsidering how I did it I think it could be done more easily. Check out the drawing "ZG1400 alt1" I've attached. That way of doing it fixes the brake issue but you end up with no rear ABS.

 In the second drawing "ZG1400 front brakes" I am going to try to have a custom made hose to connect both front calipers to the left output off the ABS block and then plug the right output with a rubber hose with a bleeder valve on the end to remove air from the line. The rear brake lines would remain stock. That way of doing it should have ABS in front and rear. Who knows if it will work though? I haven't called around yet on having the hose made so I'm not sure of cost and even if it can be done.

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 10:22:55 am »
Regarding your first fix, why did you bevel/mill the bleeder plugs?  Was it leaking before you machined it? 

I am wondering if buying new regular bleeders wil fix that? Or maybe speed bleeders?
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 10:53:34 am »
No they didn't leak. I never even tried using them before I machined them. If you look at the attached photo "flare fitting" you will understand why I did it. They have to mate up with their opposite which is a convex flare inside a female threaded fitting. The bleeder adapter in the photo you will notice has a flat base and I didn't think it would seal without the concave flare. These were the only option that I found from Galfer. I suppose I could have searched more, but I got impatient.

Offline The Pope

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 04:05:27 am »
Any updates on this?

 :popcorn:
The Pope
2011 C-14 Atomic Silver...... aka ImprovedSilverDammIt.

"The Universe is a contest between engineers making things idiot-proof and God making bigger idiots. So far, God is winning by a wide margin." Unknown author, well I don't know who said it.

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 08:31:37 am »
Yes, I installed the custom line splitting the left front brake line out of the ABS block and blocked the right front line out of ABS. I reinstalled the rear brake line as per normal setup. I've been testing it to make sure all is functioning normally and so far it seems right. I have ABS in the rear and I have ABS in the front. The problem that existed before which was when you were applying front brake and were to just touch the rear making it all of a sudden grab more front brake is gone. I can still feel that the rear brake pedal is effected by the front, but it isn't noticeably changing the braking characteristics other than the rear pedal feels a little stiffer when holding the front.

Overall I'm pretty sure I like the fix because I have ABS in both wheels now. With my other fix I liked the feel of the front lever and rear pedal better, but didn't have ABS in the rear. I just have to make up my mind as to which way I will stay with.

The parts were obtained from Galfer and are a t-fitting and two lines at 16cm and 20cm. I would shorten the 16cm to probably 15cm(that's the one on the left in photo) because it seemed a little long. Attached is my order sheet also.

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 08:38:22 am »
So are the brakes completely unlinked?  When you apply the front, do you get rear?  Or (more importantly to me), when you apply the rear, do you get ANY front brake at all?

I am just waiting to get this info to decide which way to go.  When I do, I will order parts and ship my ECU off to Guhl.  Already have a Sargent seat on order, so when done, I will have the 3 things I dislike (seat, limited low end power and godawful  linked brakes) FIXED.

2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2013, 08:58:26 am »
When you apply the front brake it still applies the rear but when you apply the rear it doesn't apply the front because the line that is linked is the right line and it is blocked. You don't get that unexpected sudden application of more front when using the front then applying the rear. If that's what you are looking to get rid of it does it. Although, the rear pedal feel is effected by the front. If you were to apply only rear it feels normal. Then at another time you were to apply front then rear, you won't get the sudden dive and grab of more front brakes, but the rear does feel stiffer than when applying it by itself.