Author Topic: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does  (Read 16095 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2015, 05:05:39 pm »
Yep...my internet has been down

LOCKED


See how I'm taken advantaged of when I'm gone
...but most graciously moved for continued discussion. Thank you.
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Offline Miss Silvera

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2015, 06:36:29 pm »
I'm always amazed at people's fascination for killing machinery like guns and rifles.

It's more likely to be killed by a toddler with a gun than a terrorist in the US.  :o

Why on earth would you need (or even want) to own a device that is designed for the sole purpose of making another human dead? As soon as countries allow civilians to own rifles, people die. We know this to be true:P

Does "it feels really awesome" justify that?

I'm honestly baffled, an explanation would be welcomed!


I'll give you an answer....Because in this country we fought wars and fight wars to provide to it's citizens the Constitution and the Bill of RIGHTS.....NAMELY...The Second Amendment....

And by the way...the reason that terrorists are less likely to kill me in the US is....I'm ARMED.....VERY ARMED and prepared....to....PROTECT ME!    Not you...

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Offline Nosmo

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2015, 07:24:00 pm »
My best friend is a retired police sergeant, spent many years in Homicide.  One of the cases he had to participate in was a family killed by an intruder.  With no means of self-defense in the home, the intruder managed to overpower and tie-up the mother, father and four children.  They were arranged on the living room floor, in a circle, on their bellies, facing each other.  The intruder then took a clothing iron from the kitchen, and one by one, used it to punch a hole in their skulls, then took a long bladed kitchen knife and stirred it around in their brains until they died.  The parents watched this happen to their kids, then the father/husband watched it happen to his wife, then he was the last victim. 

I don't personally give a rat's red behind what statistics someone from another country wants to quote, and I don't care a rotten fig how many people die from any other causes.

This I DO care about:  If ANYONE comes into my home to commit violence against me or my (future) wife, I will deal with them in the gravest extreme and do WHATEVER is necessary to ensure my/our safety.  If it takes a firearm for that, so be it.  Whether in my home or in public.  If you don't want to protect yourself, that is your right and privilege but don't attempt to preach to me as to how I should or should not defend myself.

You should be aware that virtually everything you see from Hollywood, TV land, and other media, regarding firearms, is wrong. 

The guys in the first video scare me because they seem to represent the uneducated American public, who only know three words:  Assault rifle, bullet, gun.  Everything they think they know about firearms comes from movies and TV. They acted like a bunch of ten-year olds at the zoo.  The one idiot even managed to cork off a round while looking backward over his shoulder at the camera.  (Yo, dude, I mean, like, hey man, like do you like know what the trigger is for?)  The future of America?  (Shudder.)

Firearms are not the first and only weapons we humans have invented.  Clubs and thrown stones came about to defend against fists and feet.  Axes and swords and other edged weapons were developed to defeat clubs.  Then it escalated to spears and arrows and things that can kill at a distance. Gunpowder came along and the distance was increased.  There will be a next step (the U.S. Navy now has an operable, deployed LASER weapon, mounted on one of our warships), and we'll have this same debate when we get to that. It isn't about guns, or spears, or arrows, or knives.  It is about the right to be left alone and be able to defend ourselves in our homes and daily lives.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 07:56:57 pm by Nosmo »
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Offline Cholla

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2015, 08:47:33 am »
More children are killed by "doctors" than by firearms but it's legal.
And certain species of animals are protected.
Anyone see an oxymoron here?
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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2015, 01:47:40 pm »
Thanks for your replies!

I don't ever want to condemn or something, I'm just honestly curious about your reasonings and culture behind it.

Personally, I feel safer living in a place where no-one is armed with firearms.
(the chances of people being killed by firearm-related accidents being higher than the chances of getting attacked by someone and having to defend yourself with a firearm)

But I do get the principle of having the right to defend yourself. It's a culture thing I guess. :)


The argument about the doctors is a bit silly though, I'm sorry, it's false cause reasoning. :P
If we had no doctors at all, a lot more people would die. If there weren't any guns in the world at all, it wouldn't cause more people to die. :P

Stay safe guys! :)
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2015, 02:03:32 pm »
I guess it's a matter of who do you trust more with your life, yourself or some complete stranger who doesn't give a damn about you and is an hour away eating donuts.
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Offline Miss Silvera

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2015, 05:16:41 pm »
. If there weren't any guns in the world at all, it wouldn't cause more people to die. :P

Stay safe guys! :)


and I disagree....no way to prove that I suppose....but there were a whole lot of humans killed by others before guns came into being....
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Offline tweeter55

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 07:01:01 pm »
Personally, I feel safer living in a place where no-one is armed with firearms.
 
When you find that place, let us know. I don't think it exists anywhere close by.
Got to give everyone in this thread credit for reasonable thoughts and conversations. I fall on the side of the 2nd Amendment and not taking any more freedoms away than they already have in that respect...should give us back a few as a matter of fact. (Like that will ever happen) :chugbeer:
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 07:49:17 pm »
Well, I'm confused. 

Tzigane's profile says he's in Rotterdam, Netherlands.  OK.  But here are some firearm stats for the Netherlands:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/netherlands

"The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the Netherlands is 510,000."

"The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in the Netherlands is 3.91 firearms per 100 people."

"The number of registered guns in the Netherlands is reported to be 330,000."

That leaves about 180,000 unregistered firearms.  If I read it right, those unregistered  arms are illegal.

Tzigane, I think some of your 16.8 million neighbors may have some hidden toys. ;)  I hope they are all friendly.

Actually, the Netherlands is one country I have always wanted to visit, but probably won't ever get around to.  It is likely safer than where I live in any case, guns aside.

Be safe!
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Offline maxtog

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2015, 06:45:55 am »
Personally, I feel safer living in a place where no-one is armed with firearms.

And there is the #1 misconception right there about "gun control".  Making guns illegal takes them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.  It does *NOT* make society gunless.  I guarantee you that criminals will still be armed, they will always find a way.  Government officials will be armed also (police, military, and spook agencies).

As long as it is possible for humans to make weapons, they will be made and they will be distributed.  And I, for one, feel much safer knowing that I live in a country where the normal, moral, good, law-abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves.
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2015, 07:21:36 am »
And there is the #1 misconception right there about "gun control".  Making guns illegal takes them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.  It does *NOT* make society gunless.  I guarantee you that criminals will still be armed, they will always find a way.  Government officials will be armed also (police, military, and spook agencies).

As long as it is possible for humans to make weapons, they will be made and they will be distributed.  And I, for one, feel much safer knowing that I live in a country where the normal, moral, good, law-abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves.
...and others.

Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2015, 09:46:36 am »
 I just saw an article that claimed Massachusetts has the 2nd lowest gun fatalities nationwide. Sure, I can see that, it's hard to get a gun in MA. But nobody looks any deeper than the headline. What was the rate of violent homicides? If it runs with the national average, then the gun issue is a moot point. Killed by a knife or shovel is just as dead.

  The real problem is folks who don't own guns don't understand why others do. They see a gun in the hands of civilians strictly in an offensive usage, though they want the police armed for defensive use. The understand you can kill someone with a kitchen knife or a shovel, or a car, but "hey - I use those things almost everyday - you can't take it away from me - I didn't kill anyone with my car / knife / shovel today" . They just fail to apply that thought process to the person who  has a gun for defensive purposes. Steve

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2015, 09:56:14 am »
From 2013...http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/02/17/the-nation-toughest-gun-control-law-made-massachusetts-less-safe/3845k7xHzkwTrBWy4KpkEM/story.html

IN 1998, Massachusetts passed what was hailed as the toughest gun-control legislation in the country. Among other stringencies, it banned semiautomatic “assault” weapons, imposed strict new licensing rules, prohibited anyone convicted of a violent crime or drug trafficking from ever carrying or owning a gun, and enacted severe penalties for storing guns unlocked.

The 1998 legislation did cut down, quite sharply, on the legal use of guns in Massachusetts. Within four years, the number of active gun licenses in the state had plummeted. “There were nearly 1.5 million active gun licenses in Massachusetts in 1998,” the AP reported. “In June [2002], that number was down to just 200,000.” The author of the law, state Senator Cheryl Jacques, was pleased that the Bay State’s stiff new restrictions had made it possible to “weed out the clutter.”

Since 1998, gun crime in Massachusetts has gotten worse, not better. In 2011, Massachusetts recorded 122 murders committed with firearms, the Globe reported this month — “a striking increase from the 65 in 1998.” Other crimes rose too. Between 1998 and 2011, robbery with firearms climbed 20.7 percent. Aggravated assaults jumped 26.7 percent.

and one it goes...the AntiGunCrowd will never admit they're wrong...
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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 10:57:38 am »
Very interesting. Switzerland also has a lot of people with guns, but they all get mandatory training too.

I'm not pro or against by the way, I don't have enough knowledge of the matter to support any position or form an actual opinion yet. :)

The idea that other object can be used as weapons too is flawed as an argument. A gun is specifically designed to effectively kill another human from a distance. A tool like a shed or a car has a different and practical purpose and is therefore less likely to be banned. Restricted though. Hence the driver's licences, and police and laws that control safety and such.

Sure there are (illegal) guns here in the Netherlands too. The chances of actually being shot are absurdly small though, so I don't ever feel the need to carry a gun myself to "protect myself". Just like I don't think it's needed to wear a helmet when walking down the street, in case anyone dropped a potted plant from a window. :P
I have never been, and I have not ever known anyone who has been in a situation that would have ended better if there were legal guns involved. Furthmore, IF you are robbed/attacked or whatever, will having a gun actually matter? Will you, being a normal human being with normal hormonal levels (read, producing a shitload of epinephrine, severely impairing judgment, in a situation like that) be able to use a gun in a way that will help keep you and others around you safe?

Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?
2) Say the government used things like drones/robots/ evil soldiers bent on attack civilians, does having a rifle really keep you safe?
3) is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?

Maybe I lack some perspective because I didn't grow up around guns. But as far as I can see the only reasons to keep guns around are irrational fears of being attacked by someone in a way where having a gun would actually matter. else/government and "it's awesome" (which, don't get my wrong, I get completely)

Once again, just curious and being unknowing of the culture and views around owning and using weaponry like that. :)
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Offline Rhino

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2015, 12:41:55 pm »

Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?
2) Say the government used things like drones/robots/ evil soldiers bent on attack civilians, does having a rifle really keep you safe?
3) is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?



1) yes, history of the last century teaches this. The soldiers of Germany, Japan, Cambodia etc considered themselves "normal people".
2) no, but far safer than not having anything.
3) Far, far more likely that I would get hurt riding a motorcycle than accidentally by my guns. BTW: the primary purpose of my
    guns is not to kill things, but to protect myself and my family. You do not have to kill something to use a gun for protection.
    Just ask police officers. It is very rare that they use their gun to kill. But just having it most of the time is enough to stop
    someone from attacking them.

The United States was relatively untouched amidst multiple genocides of the last century. I think the main reason was because of our freedom. There are specific areas in the US that are dangerous to crime. These are mostly due to racism and cultural history, not due to our second amendment. In fact in most of those places, gun ownership is far more limited. Specific neighborhoods in Chicago, New York and Washington to name a few. Outside of those areas our crime rate is very similar to Europe. I've been to Amsterdam, Nijmegen and Eindhoven. Beautiful country by the way. I am just as safe walking down the street in Colorado Springs, CO, or Austin TX as I was walking around those cities.