Author Topic: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does  (Read 16125 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2015, 12:44:49 pm »
You have grown up with a nanny state government and I guess that's alright if that's what you're used too. I will not bow my head to anyone and hope they don't kill me. And governments have a well documented record of killing their own people. Have you not read any history?
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2015, 01:21:14 pm »
Maybe it's a matter of perspective. The Netherlands land area ( 16,000sq miles) will fit in the state of West Virginia (24,000sq miles). When we go for a long motorcycle ride it can be for 3000 miles and stay in the same country, speak the same language and spend the same money as everybody else. We need no passports and no travel papers. There are areas of hundreds of square miles where no one lives. This is not like Europe which has been settled for thousands of years. We as a country are less than three hundred years old. There are still animals that can be higher on the food chain than us if we are not careful. We have been more or less at war with a few stretches of not war since our inception. Many have suffered because of that but many millions more, including Europe, have been the beneficiary of our efforts. Not bragging or excusing, just stating facts. We were born to war and taking care of our own both as a nation and as individuals. When anyone, including our own politicians, try to infringe on our natural rights we don't take it well. We were not born to be sheep.
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Offline Deziner

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2015, 06:44:08 am »
I have insurance on my motorcycle.  I hope I never need it.

I have fire extinguishers. I hope I never need them.

I have guns. I hope I never need them.

Get it ?    Got it?    Good.
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2015, 06:46:36 am »
What if you want to go target shooting at fire extinguishers from the back of your motorcycle? Will your insurance cover that?
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Offline Deziner

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2015, 06:59:56 am »
Not in the Netherlands.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2015, 09:33:22 pm »
Sure there are (illegal) guns here in the Netherlands too. The chances of actually being shot are absurdly small though, so I don't ever feel the need to carry a gun myself to "protect myself".

And that is great.  But it is difficult to compare a small and very homogeneous country like the Netherlands to the USA.  The situation is very different.  The lower level of violence/crime is not due to the lack of guns.  It is more likely about compatibility of upbringing, education, values, religion, income equity, politics, etc.

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is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things

It is no more irrational than those who fear good and responsible people HAVING guns.

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and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?

Cars, motorcycles, bicycles, drugs drugs, power tools, heaters, food, and many other things are misused or cause accidents which can and do kill many, many, many thousands of times more people than guns do in the hands of non-criminals.

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Maybe I lack some perspective because I didn't grow up around guns.

Perhaps, but it is more likely you just lack perspective because you are in a less potentially dangerous area.  Please keep in mind that the VAST majority of US citizens do not own guns.  And huge areas of the USA have low violence.  But the USA is a huge place, with lots of incredibly large cities, and the freedom we enjoy (which is less and less each year, unfortunately) gives incentive to some people to use that freedom for destructive/criminal purposes instead of constructive/peaceful purposes.

You can have more freedom or more safety.  Not both.  So I will close with one of the most important quotes of all time... from one of the founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2015, 04:03:15 am »
A good reply, thank you! I'm beginning to see the point to it.
How is weapon possession regulated over there? Do you need a license/take a test or something?

And indeed, I often read about the freedom that is been taken away. both in the USA and here in Europe.
Mass surveillance and privacy infringement because of imaginary "terrorists".. But that's a different topic altogether.
No amount of guns will save us from that.  :-\
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Offline Rhino

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2015, 07:13:25 am »
A good reply, thank you! I'm beginning to see the point to it.
How is weapon possession regulated over there? Do you need a license/take a test or something?

And indeed, I often read about the freedom that is been taken away. both in the USA and here in Europe.
Mass surveillance and privacy infringement because of imaginary "terrorists".. But that's a different topic altogether.
No amount of guns will save us from that.  :-\

It differs from state to state and in some cases city to city. In most of the US, you do not need a license or test just to own a gun. You do have to get a background check to buy from a licensed dealer. That is to say they check to make sure you are not on a felony list. Most states (over 30) now allow carrying a concealed handgun with a permit. I don't know all the laws of every state but most require some training as well as a background check to get this permit. Most if not all states do not allow you to carry even with a permit into schools, banks and government buildings. Please note that in all cases of tragic school shootings here in the US it is strictly forbidden to have a gun. The psychopaths don't care and in fact know that all their victims are unarmed. In states such as I have lived for the last 30 years, Colorado and Texas, as long as you are not on a forbidden list you can buy a gun, have it in your house or in your car, and carry it openly in the country. All fully automatic guns (any gun where more than one bullet is fired when the trigger is pulled) and silencers are forbidden unless you have a specific federal license. Those licenses are expensive and difficult to get and very regulated.

Offline Rick Hall

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2015, 08:44:42 pm »
Neil Young, from the 70's. I'm sure you've heard of him. Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.


Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?


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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2015, 02:49:00 am »
Thanks for the info Rhino!

Rick: What happened there was horrible indeed.  :-\

How would the situation be different if the students were armed though? :)
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2015, 04:18:39 am »
Every time I hear that song I get goose bumps and shiver over soldiers killing the ones they are supposed to protect.  I visited the site a few years ago.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2015, 11:25:35 am »
Thanks for the info Rhino!

Rick: What happened there was horrible indeed.  :-\

How would the situation be different if the students were armed though? :)

Nothing would have changed in that one tragic incident. In fact it was probably good that no students fired back. But I have to wonder if things might have been different in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943 or if the jewish population in Europe in 1940 was as well armed as the US  population is now. Would things have been different? Or how about the population of Cambodia in the 1970's?

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2015, 02:05:35 pm »
or China....or Russia....or....the Aztecs...or....just about any population who doesn't want to be conquered and enslaved.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline Deziner

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2015, 04:38:48 pm »


How would the situation be different if the students were armed though? :)


It is a whole lot harder to control/intimidate a group of people when they are also armed.

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Offline XPLRN

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2015, 06:14:16 pm »
Dear T,
   As someone who has been in law enforcement for the past 20 years let me give you some input here. Criminals do not care if the average man or woman is armed, as a matter of fact they prefer it that way. If a person has no way to protect themselves then they will be a victim at will for the criminals to exploit.

Was out doing some reading on various threads and ran across this one which contaned some well stated thoughts by numerous folks. Possibly the italicized/underlined text was not quite what was meant to be conveyed!?? The following line tends to counter the previous.

I've never heard of a criminal preferring that their victims be armed.