Author Topic: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"  (Read 7399 times)

Offline connie_rider

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"Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« on: February 26, 2015, 10:36:05 am »
The Over the Pond team has formed and is working on Over the Pond again.

This will be the 13th time we have sent Travelers on the Dream of a Lifetime.
1 of those "OtP" Travelers was our own Rick Hall.....

I haven't put anything on this Forum (as honestly) I'm having trouble keeping up with all the Discussions on the other.

I will attach shortcuts on this note for those that want to get in on the fun?
    In the discussions, Abusing "Harry  Martin" is a large part of my fun. <evil grin>
    Also, "IMPORTANT",, Voting for this years Traveler has started. If you want to vote,,,, do so!!

Why I decided to post here now;

One of the COG Members has offered something that I think some of you would be interested in.     
   So, I decided to post the deal here .

Charlie Gary makes Name Plates (that fit in the window of the C-10 Connies).
These name Plates can also be attached to the C-14.

Charlie has offered to make (and sell) the nameplates (and the $$ will go to this years "Over the Pond")...
My thought is that; some of you might want one of these Name Plates made for your Connie???

If so, go here.........

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,57015.msg430263.html#msg430263

Ride safe, Ted

PS: If anyone has questions about "OtP" and want them answered here,, let me know, and I'll reply here....

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2015, 09:40:47 pm »
Hi Ted,

I have a question: could you elaborate on the people who are running in this particular contest and what their background w/in COG is perhaps? I am curious and more so after Chris Baum's statement that the vote would be adjusted to ensure its 'fairness'.

Brian

The Over the Pond team has formed and is working on Over the Pond again.

This will be the 13th time we have sent Travelers on the Dream of a Lifetime.
1 of those "OtP" Travelers was our own Rick Hall.....

I haven't put anything on this Forum (as honestly) I'm having trouble keeping up with all the Discussions on the other.

I will attach shortcuts on this note for those that want to get in on the fun?
    In the discussions, Abusing "Harry  Martin" is a large part of my fun. <evil grin>
    Also, "IMPORTANT",, Voting for this years Traveler has started. If you want to vote,,,, do so!!

Why I decided to post here now;

One of the COG Members has offered something that I think some of you would be interested in.     
   So, I decided to post the deal here .

Charlie Gary makes Name Plates (that fit in the window of the C-10 Connies).
These name Plates can also be attached to the C-14.

Charlie has offered to make (and sell) the nameplates (and the $$ will go to this years "Over the Pond")...
My thought is that; some of you might want one of these Name Plates made for your Connie???

If so, go here.........

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,57015.msg430263.html#msg430263

Ride safe, Ted

PS: If anyone has questions about "OtP" and want them answered here,, let me know, and I'll reply here....
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 08:42:55 am »
Sure, I'll post the names.


NOTE: At the beginning we had more Candidates, but some had to decline the Nomination for personal reasons.

The 5 Candidates are;    Drumroll please!!

    Mark Hartman
    Charlie Gary
    Chris Baum
    Mike Aldea
    Al Norcross


NOTE: The easiest way to know what is going on is to monitor the countless Discussions on the other Forum.

Answer to Important question from BDF.

I have no idea what you mean about adjusting the vote?
 Adjusting the vote is not possible.
 {Dave is collecting the votes, and keeping COG numbers etc to ensure we have records of all votes that come in}.

Over the Years, we've found that the Better Known Candidate has a huge advantage.
Because we see that, Hans and I have worked to find ways to give the Lesser known candidates a better chance. 
This year we went back to allowing Forum subscribers, Significant Others, and Non Members to vote (by Joining COG/GCE or donating to Over the Pond).

  This brings $$ into OtP, brings in COG and GCE Members, involves people that have not yet joined the clubs (but are interested),
  and (hopefully) gives the Lesser known Candidates a better chance to win.
  (Note: Forum subscribers,  Significant Others, and Non Members have always been able to vote).

Possibly he considers this as an adjustment? I suggest we ask him....

Before anyone says; The Winner can be elected by a Candidate Buying votes,,,,.
        He can not. Because it is NOT POSSIBLE.
In the rules we stated that we would monitor all votes and if we see this as a problem, we will take action.
It has proved to be a non issue as (at this time) only about 3-4 votes have come in this way.
As I said above;  {Dave is collecting the votes, and keeping COG numbers etc to ensure we have records of all votes that come in}.

NOTE: I {intentionally} do not see the votes until after the Winner is selected.
          By not knowing who is ahead, I can be neutral and help "all" the Candidates.
          I do talk to Dave regularly to check on any issues he may see. To date, none have been noted.
              (Approx. 120 votes have been sent in at this time)..

Ride safe, Ted

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 11:05:25 am »
Thanks Ted, I did not know who had been nominated.

As to the 'vote adjustment', not my words but the words of Chris Baum in a post in another thread on this forum: "BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."

I am confused by the words 'fair' and 'adjustment' used together to apply to any type of vote. ??? Any and all 'fair' voting adjustments that I am aware of, currently as well as historically, are done BEFORE the vote; not a subtle difference in my experience or knowledge. Fair votes do not need any post vote adjustments. And all post vote adjustments that I am aware of are and were never intended to make the vote 'fair', they are and were intended to make the vote turn out the way the 'powers that be' desired it to turn out.

And one final thought: monitoring the other forum will not necessarily leave readers informed of what is going on due to possible post deletions, post alterations, thread deletions, censorship, etc.

All of that aside, I do hope you personally have a great time again with the OTP folks again this year. I know you are heavily involved, contribute a lot of your time and effort toward it, and enjoy it immensely. I hope that continues on for you as the OTP program changes.

Best Rgds,
Brian

Sure, I'll post the names.


NOTE: At the beginning we had more Candidates, but some had to decline the Nomination for personal reasons.

The 5 Candidates are;    Drumroll please!!

    Mark Hartman
    Charlie Gary
    Chris Baum
    Mike Aldea
    Al Norcross


NOTE: The easiest way to know what is going on is to monitor the countless Discussions on the other Forum.

Answer to Important question from BDF.

I have no idea what you mean about adjusting the vote?
 Adjusting the vote is not possible.
 {Dave is collecting the votes, and keeping COG numbers etc to ensure we have records of all votes that come in}.

Over the Years, we've found that the Better Known Candidate has a huge advantage.
Because we see that, Hans and I have worked to find ways to give the Lesser known candidates a better chance. 
This year we went back to allowing Forum subscribers, Significant Others, and Non Members to vote (by Joining COG/GCE or donating to Over the Pond).

  This brings $$ into OtP, brings in COG and GCE Members, involves people that have not yet joined the clubs (but are interested),
  and (hopefully) gives the Lesser known Candidates a better chance to win.
  (Note: Forum subscribers,  Significant Others, and Non Members have always been able to vote).

Possibly he considers this as an adjustment? I suggest we ask him....

Before anyone says; The Winner can be elected by a Candidate Buying votes,,,,.
        He can not. Because it is NOT POSSIBLE.
In the rules we stated that we would monitor all votes and if we see this as a problem, we will take action.
It has proved to be a non issue as (at this time) only about 3-4 votes have come in this way.
As I said above;  {Dave is collecting the votes, and keeping COG numbers etc to ensure we have records of all votes that come in}.

NOTE: I {intentionally} do not see the votes until after the Winner is selected.
          By not knowing who is ahead, I can be neutral and help "all" the Candidates.
          I do talk to Dave regularly to check on any issues he may see. To date, none have been noted.
              (Approx. 120 votes have been sent in at this time)..

Ride safe, Ted
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 12:53:56 pm »
Here is the best way I can explain;
No One else does something like OtP. We want all candidates to have a fair chance.
We're inventing a process as we go; We're trying things to assure all candidates have a chance to win...
And we're checking ourselves (publicly) so that all know we are not hiding anything...
 
If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."


I guess your correct. As you know I'm a pretty basic guy. (ie: Not a Politician)
                              If anyone knows a better way, help me. Join the OtP Team...
Over the Pond is something that no other club does.      We work very hard to ensure that all the candidates have a chance to Win.     This includes the Lesser Known Candidates.     In an attempt to help the Lesser Knowns we added the "Donate to Vote" Process.     "Donate/Join COG or GCE to Vote"  is not something that goes into a normal election process.
But we did it, and need to be sure it is fair...
   

Sorry, but I didn't know any better way to say it;
     That was my way of saying, we're watching to see if Candidate XXX suddenly gets XX (Non-member Votes)
     If that were to happen, we would get in touch with that candidate and find out what is going on,
         and (if we suspect someone is buying a win) decide what to do about it.

And one final thought: monitoring the other forum will not necessarily leave readers informed of what is going on due to possible post deletions, post alterations, thread deletions, censorship, etc.

LOL; Again,,,  I guess your correct. Do you have a suggestion? <Sneaky grin>
       We don't have National TV coverage, news station, radio etc,,
       For 4-8 hours "every day" since January,,, I've been posting notes on the COG Forum, writing articles for Concourier,
        some notes to this Forum, and (other places I can think of), begged for assistance from COG/GCE Members to assistance
        in spreading the word..
        All posts are for everyone to view. I regularly say, ask me if you have a question...
     
 As you know I'm a pretty basic guy. (ie: Not a Politician)    So, I'll be blunt...  <repeat of Sneaky grin>
                              If anyone knows a better way, "HELP ME".  "Join the OtP Team"...

Ride safe, Ted


Offline B.D.F.

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 01:25:51 pm »
Well, yeah, I think I have a better idea and because I like you Ted, you can have it without me joining any organization(s) at all. :-)

Set up the vote BEFORE the vote occurs and let it play out. I really do not understand why the OTP vote must be done by a majority of COG members (??) but even that can be made fair but not by fudging the votes after they are in. Do it beforehand by defining and stating the method; just as a suggestion, something like this could work and all set up before the vote:

The vote will be 60% COG and 40% non- COG regardless of the number of voters. That way the vote are already weighted (not biased) for a COG majority but no one has to fiddle with the votes afterward. Just add up all the votes in both groups (COG / non- COG), weight them (60% / 40% respectively) and count them. That way the rules are set before the vote and it will both prevent a Soviet style election and the appearance of a Soviet style election.

I think the OTP idea is great and those that I know who were involved with it are great folks doing a nice thing. But now that it has been absorbed by <ahem> 'another organization', I think the OTP folks will have to work twice as hard to keep the corruption and mismanagement at bay. This idea of 'adjusting the vote' to be fair is a perfect example: there are only two choices, it is either a corrupt vote, or it is an honest vote that looks corrupt by the idea that adjustments will be applied as 'needed', especially when those comments about adjusting the vote are made by a candidate of that very vote.

Brian

Here is the best way I can explain;
No One else does something like OtP. We want all candidates to have a fair chance.
We're inventing a process as we go; We're trying things to assure all candidates have a chance to win...
And we're checking ourselves (publicly) so that all know we are not hiding anything...
 
If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."


I guess your correct. As you know I'm a pretty basic guy. (ie: Not a Politician)
                              If anyone knows a better way, help me. Join the OtP Team...

<snip>

Ride safe, Ted
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 06:22:16 pm »
We don't fiddle with or Fudge the votes.
Votes are counted 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
Each vote is counted as 1, not 60% or 40% of 1.
(THAT WOULD BE FUDGING A VOTE).

The reason OtP is part of OtP/GCE is; Hans and I are the OtP Co-ordinators.
                                                       As COG/GCE Members "we" want it that way.
                                                       If someone else decides to do something like "OtP", and not include COG/GCE, go for it.

I already admitted I miss spoke when I said;
If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."


Maybe:??
  OtP Is a COG/GCE Event.
  We do not want Non Members to overrule COG/GCE Voters.
  We do want Non member's to participate in this COG/GCE event.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2015, 07:07:38 pm »
I was not quoting you Ted but rather Chris Baum who said in another thread on this forum:

"       BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."

I understand there will be no fudging but only FAIR adjustments. A critical, and fine difference, to be sure! But I seriously doubt that there will be sufficient purchased votes to overcome the "legitimate" votes cast, and not because it is not possible but only because the price of admission is not worth the value received. Then again, who knows- you may have purchased votes pouring in from all over the globe.

I have no dog in that contest and will not be casting any vote, purchased or otherwise.

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” 
-G. Orwell, 'Animal Farm'

 ;)

Brian

Brian



We don't fiddle with or Fudge the votes.
Votes are counted 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
Each vote is counted as 1, not 60% or 40% of 1.
(THAT WOULD BE FUDGING A VOTE).

The reason OtP is part of OtP/GCE is; Hans and I are the OtP Co-ordinators.
                                                       As COG/GCE Members "we" want it that way.
                                                       If someone else decides to do something like "OtP", and not include COG/GCE, go for it.

I already admitted I miss spoke when I said;
If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution."


Maybe:??
  OtP Is a COG/GCE Event.
  We do not want Non Members to overrule COG/GCE Voters.
  We do want Non member's to participate in this COG/GCE event.

Ride safe, Ted
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 07:38:16 pm »
You are quoting me and taking it's meaning incorrectly..
Read below.
As I have said, I miss- spoke, But have no idea how to be more clear.

Ted

First of all; "For clarity"
 Requirements for Voting
  1) Current COG/GCE Members are entitled to 1 Vote.
  2) An Associate Member {of a Current COG/GCE Member} is entitled to 1 vote.
  3) Significant Others {That are NOT Associate members}, can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $10 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.
  4) Forum Subscribers (with a minimum of 20 posts) can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $10 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.
  5) Non Members can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $15 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.



NOTE: WE want the Winner to be selected by the club Members.
          We allowed Forum Subscribers and Non Members to vote so that friends of the Candidates can assist in
            the selection of the Winner.

           BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 08:32:29 pm »
Ted,

I am not quoting you, I am quoting Chris Baum in this post, in this thread: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=18954.msg234290#msg234290

I also do not know how I can be more clear.

No matter, I hope whomever does go to Europe on the OTP plan has a great time.

Brian

You are quoting me and taking it's meaning incorrectly..
Read below.
As I have said, I miss- spoke, But have no idea how to be more clear.

Ted

First of all; "For clarity"
 Requirements for Voting
  1) Current COG/GCE Members are entitled to 1 Vote.
  2) An Associate Member {of a Current COG/GCE Member} is entitled to 1 vote.
  3) Significant Others {That are NOT Associate members}, can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $10 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.
  4) Forum Subscribers (with a minimum of 20 posts) can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $10 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.
  5) Non Members can vote 1 time.
       BUT  {before Voting} a $15 (Minimum) Donation must be made to "Over the Pond" by that person.



NOTE: WE want the Winner to be selected by the club Members.
          We allowed Forum Subscribers and Non Members to vote so that friends of the Candidates can assist in
            the selection of the Winner.

           BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2015, 10:20:39 pm »
Ok, I give up.. You quoted him, not me...
What were we talking about?   ::)

I sed:
           BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution.


He quoted me.
           BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution.


You quoted him.
           BUT: we will be monitoring the votes to ensure that the Winner is selected primarily by COG/GCE Members!
                   If we notice that more votes are coming in from Non Members than Members,,
                        we will do some type of FAIR adjustment.
                   WE do NOT expect this to happen, but I want to bring it up as a per-caution.


And all of this is because; I miss-spoke  (about a FAIR ADJUSTMENT) in the first place,,,,, after saying;
   NOTE: WE want the Winner to be selected by the club Members.
             We allowed Forum Subscribers and Non Members to vote so that friends of the Candidates can assist in
              the selection of the Winner.


BUT, before any of that was said,,,, "I said":
As always:

We ain't Lawyers, so if you see a clerical mistake, ask us! 
We'll answer any questions that come up in as fair of way as possible....


Did I get that right??  ???

Ride safe, Ted
 

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 06:21:40 am »
How about this Ted: I had a great time at the OTP meeting last June albeit it was hard on my nerves (inside joke, nothing to do with OTP). It was a great group of folks from both sides of the pond, and I am sure as long as you are involved it will continue to be a great organization.

I do not have a problem with you or OTP. I have a problem with COG, and now that OTP is part of COG, those comments about how the vote would be handled really hit home. Especially when what, three out of five OTP selectees are members of the Board of Directors of COG? Has that ever happened before?

Anyway, as I said, best of luck with OTP and the travelers, and I hope you folks again have a great time this year on both sides of the pond.

Brian

Ok, I give up.. You quoted him, not me...
What were we talking about?   ::)

<snip>

Did I get that right??  ???

Ride safe, Ted
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 12:16:20 pm »
Thanks Brian. You and I are fine..
Actually, "thank you" for the discussion.
Hopefully it clarified things for others.

I know about the COG concern, but I couldn't let suspicion of "OtP" activities go unanswered.
I had to clarify that "OtP" is not trying to pull something.  (as always) Everything is totally on the Up and Up.
plus; I've stated I would (publicly) answer all questions, and I was attempting to do that.
Hopefully my explanation helped clear things up.

COG had nothing to do with the Voting Rules. All that COG has done is make us keep better records. We're attempting to do that.
The (addition) was our choice as a means for Non Members to officially vote.
It spells out who can vote (including non-members), gives lesser known candidates a better chance to win "OtP", and brings in $$.
 
NOTE: This (addition) was not new. In the 13 year of "OtP", we've tried this before (2 or 3 times).
          It works, but we wanted it better defined. 
          This year, I refined it, posted it, and tried to make it clear to all.
            Apparently my choice of words could have been better... (My apologies for that)

You mentioned that 3 of the Candidate's are on the COG Board.
I have to admit I hadn't realized that.
As always; Nominations come in, Nominee's are contacted about qualifications and willingness to be a Candidate.
This year, 10 were nominated. 5 declined the nomination., and 5 remain as candidates.
"All" are great folks...

Ride safe, Ted (Hope to see you at an event again)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2015, 03:57:34 pm »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline Gsun

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Re: "Over the Pond XIII (2015)"
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2015, 09:56:18 pm »
Geeezzzz, Brian. Take a pill! Either get involved with the process, or step back. These guys are not the enemy. The Reds are a comin'!