Author Topic: Worn rocker assembly  (Read 9838 times)

Offline Cholla

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 05:01:05 pm »
Tappy valves are happy valves.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 06:02:14 pm »
drag cars never see the rpm we use everyday, mile after mile...
I don't wanna change oil every 4 miles, nor tear down my engine, ever....
ymmv.

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Offline Brad Baerwald

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2015, 04:42:56 am »
Loading is loading... My guy (that did the bore job) said that he had guys shearing lobes off of cams left and right till he went to this stuff (and of course there are other brands too...)  You were talking about cams and rockers right? :banghead:   and I haven't spun that 3 con rod bearing (on the ZX11) and it's been almost 50k since I rebuilt it (and I only use this stuff in that bike)

I don't know about you but I change my oil every 3 K... I don't know ANY oil that can't eaisly make it out to that...

"every 4 miles"... shame on you HA HA HA

and I get what you mean (that drag guys don't put much miles before rebuilds)  but I was making a point about "loading" this guy builds all kinds of racers  (and he obviously had the gear to deal with my tiny little 1100 cc engine) ... so "work with me here"
I'm just doing the best I can, with the little bit I got!

Offline RFH87_Connie

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 05:19:54 am »
I'd gladly listen to your bike but I am going to OBX until Thursday next week.  I'm over in Lorton, VA.  Most likely you are hearing the cam chain and as said before: "Happy valves are tappy valves".  When you don't hear them they are not closing fully (out of adjustment).  The rod issue sounds normal until it failed at a little over 80mph.  The bent rod never made any different sounds or caused a noticeable performance change either.  Maybe a little extra vibes from a slightly lower compression.

I'm not sure but perhaps the engines share the same casting molds for the blocks or at least the same design specs?  Maybe the same as the ZX9 which might be the same as the ZX11 back then?  The shop foreman called the piston before I told him so it seems to be a known scenario.  It still had about 2.5 quarts of oil in it when I got it home.  Just poked a nice hole in the seam.
“I can truly say I had rather be at home at Mount Vernon with a friend or two about me, than to be attended at the seat of government by the officers of State and the representatives of every power of Europe.” - George Washington

Offline RFH87_Connie

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 05:32:11 am »
The tap I was hearing can't be confused with either the cam chain (kind of random grinding/slapping) or the valves in general (consistent but light).  A failed CCT makes a lot of racket but it is too inconsistent (grinding/slapping) to be confused with this also.  I would think a worn alternator chain would sound similar to a cam chain too.  This could be felt lightly in the bars at first and steadily got more forceful (made me kind of wince) until I knew it was time to park it before something broke.
“I can truly say I had rather be at home at Mount Vernon with a friend or two about me, than to be attended at the seat of government by the officers of State and the representatives of every power of Europe.” - George Washington

Offline DC Concours

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2015, 09:01:36 am »
Ouch. Always painful to look at.

Don't know if you answered this before...but did you find out what precipitated to this happening to your engine?


I'd gladly listen to your bike but I am going to OBX until Thursday next week.  I'm over in Lorton, VA.  Most likely you are hearing the cam chain and as said before: "Happy valves are tappy valves".  When you don't hear them they are not closing fully (out of adjustment).  The rod issue sounds normal until it failed at a little over 80mph.  The bent rod never made any different sounds or caused a noticeable performance change either.  Maybe a little extra vibes from a slightly lower compression.

I'm not sure but perhaps the engines share the same casting molds for the blocks or at least the same design specs?  Maybe the same as the ZX9 which might be the same as the ZX11 back then?  The shop foreman called the piston before I told him so it seems to be a known scenario.  It still had about 2.5 quarts of oil in it when I got it home.  Just poked a nice hole in the seam.

Offline Brad Baerwald

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2015, 09:06:12 am »
Yes DCC, I would like to know more about how that happened too.  ( I thought it was just me... or that you might have covered it at some other point here)
I'm just doing the best I can, with the little bit I got!

Offline RFH87_Connie

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2015, 09:06:38 am »
Don't know if you answered this before...but did you find out what precipitated to this happening to your engine?

No.  I never heard a definitive answer but I think I remember that the discussion was that the oil passage was prone to be either not bored or cast well restricting the flow to the main bearing on #3 - but I could be mistaken.  This would apply to ALL of the bikes that used the same engine casting as ours.

Found this while surfing the net on a Kawasaki forum and sounds reasonable:

No one really understands how the #3 is the weak Link nowadays! Back in the day the 1984 900 has an Oil Supply tube that is 1 inch long between the oil Pump and #1 & 2 Mains, but for 3 & 4 the tube is brazed in at a 90 degree angle to this 1 inch tube and is about "5" Inches Long. So when you Port the Oil Pump (Wheelies and Stoppies moving the Oil away from the pick up) when the oil returns #1 & #2 are quickly Fed Oil and it takes a lot longer for #3 * #4. Even my ZX11 had the Exact same Oil Line!

I replaced the pan and had Terry Kizer (Mr. Turbo) make up a dual supply line which helps!

On the ZX12 they have separate oil supplies but again the oil Pick up is under #1 & #2 so the distance from the Pump is STILL Farther away!

« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:39:10 am by RFH87_Connie »
“I can truly say I had rather be at home at Mount Vernon with a friend or two about me, than to be attended at the seat of government by the officers of State and the representatives of every power of Europe.” - George Washington

Offline RFH87_Connie

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2015, 12:05:24 pm »
More internet so it must be true:

I remember building a few ZX11's and the problem stemmed to a great extent from the oil hole in the cases not lining up with the oil hole in the main bearing closest to the number 3 rod. Either the cases or the bearing half had to be modified to assure proper alignment so the oil flow was not restricted. Lack of oil in this area caused #3 rod bearing failure due to oil starvation. There was also the standard oil pan bypass modification on the ZX11's that also helped with the problem.
“I can truly say I had rather be at home at Mount Vernon with a friend or two about me, than to be attended at the seat of government by the officers of State and the representatives of every power of Europe.” - George Washington

Offline Mettler1

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2015, 01:07:43 pm »
  OIL THREAD!! OIL THREAD!  ::)
 
    Well my oil is better than yours. :deadhorse:
'94 Concours 112,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,Torque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators,etc

Offline Brad Baerwald

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2015, 03:19:26 pm »
No Mettler1, I don't see anyone saying that here actually!

and yes there were all kinds of speculations as to the cause of the #3 bearing failure. Being a present day rider and owner of the bike that is MOST famous for the "#3" failure" thing AND having a spun bearing sitting next to my console (that I replaced)... the reason matters to me and Just like my Hydro'd Connie... I have NO interest in either things happening again!

I have come to the conclusion (personally) that most knowledge people feel the bearing failures are related to the oil pump sucking air!  So I have to keep the bike a little over filled (and yes that has messed with the seal on the water pump and I've had to fix that too)

ANY oil that is high in zinc (and other metals like it) are the best choice for this bike "ANY" (and I'm refering to oils that are designed for engine use of course!) so I am NOT in any way saying "one is better than the others"  except that oils that don't have these components are proven to deal poorly with "loading / shearing" issues.  I'm NO Chemist but when the oil pump draws air because the engine both pumps it too much oil to tquickly to the top end (high rev's) and has it's front wheel pointed at the sky..and happens to suck air for a millisecond... I want to deal with ANY oil that is less likely to allow "shear"  And I'm only going with what I've heard and seen personally protects my bike best.

so far "knock on wood" so good, almost 50k since the rebuild and NO other adjustments to the bike when I did it (Just bigger pistons) bike now has 70k on it... The bearing failed at 23k I hadn't had it more than a few months at that point
I'm just doing the best I can, with the little bit I got!

Offline Cholla

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2015, 03:34:25 pm »
Brad Penn is supposed to be good oil but four things...

1) why a partial synthetic,

2) what is the percentage of synthetic base stock,

3) is the synthetic Group III, IV or V stock, and,


NOW we have an oil thread.

A former co worker had a ZX something or other and he wheelied it a lot. #3 bearing went south.
4) what is the level of zinc? It may not be compatible with catcons.
Beware the Black Widows...Feared throughout the land!

Offline Brad Baerwald

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2015, 03:51:24 pm »
 :rotflmao:  VERY GOOD!  no Idea! (to all of that) and I don't understand "catcons"?

OH wait I think I know what youre talking about Catalytic converters (on the C14)... yeah DON"T DO IT!!! That much I do know.  The zinc will react with the catalyst and wipe it out... and THIS (as I understand it) is THE reason it's been removed from modern motor oils.  but again I'm NO chemist!

To be honest I was most worried about the clutch!!
I'm just doing the best I can, with the little bit I got!

Offline Cholla

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2015, 08:35:05 pm »
The stuff that's bad on clutches is molybdnum, which they added to replace the ZDDP.

Yep, catalytic converters.

We don't worry about stuff in oil, we got dry clutches... ;D
Beware the Black Widows...Feared throughout the land!

Offline Brad Baerwald

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Re: Worn rocker assembly
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2015, 10:15:49 pm »
You say'n the C14 has a dry clutch??
I'm just doing the best I can, with the little bit I got!