Author Topic: Cranks , but won't start !  (Read 16354 times)

Offline stlhrsrdr

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Cranks , but won't start !
« on: May 15, 2016, 02:17:50 pm »
Replaced the battery in my '08 about 3-4 weeks ago , took a short ride and washed it . So I have a buyer show up yesterday , bike will not start ! Ignition unlocks , gauges cycle , but no fuel pump prime . Raised the tank , removed an air box cover , and shot starting fluid in it and will not hit ! I'm assuming the ignition and fuel systems both are disabled .

Immobilizer error and F1

Bike down switch will cause this , checked it , output voltage was 4.97 vdc .
Can not get codes to show by holding both buttons on the display down for 2 seconds or more .

If I change the computer , will it have to be synced to existing fobs ?

Lost and have it sold !
Thanks for any help .

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 04:03:30 pm »
you have done every possible "don't do this" thing in an attempt to fire the bike up...

this is also the wrong place, to get help, it should be posted in the correct thread, up top, dealing specifically with the C14... I'll prod the mods to move it...

this is not an FAQ issue, so it should go to the place people will answer you...
here....

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=2.0

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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 05:30:25 pm »
At this point I wouldn't be thinking about changing any computer.  Based on what you are saying I would re-check the battery connections and make sure that the battery is fully charged.  So you are saying the bike will crank?  I'd also change the battery in the fob, but I don't think that's it.  A main fuse blown could cause issues but I don't think it would crank.

Thanks, T.
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Offline stlhrsrdr

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 06:37:11 pm »
Battery connections are fine , battery fully charged , new batteries in both fobs . Main fuse (30 amp ) , behind the battery is good , as are every fuse in all 3 fuse boxes . Bike cranks just as if it is going to start  , but fuel pump doesn't prime and bike will not hit off of starting fluid sprayed directly into the air box . The actuator for the secondary flies is " buzzing " , like it doesn't have a good connection or ground . Haven't tore down far enough to get to it yet . Fuel injection module clicks once when key is turned on , as I would think it should .

I'm beyond puzzled , and know it can't be much . Just rode it 2 weeks ago .

Offline Charlie747

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 02:36:28 am »
If you have cranking and a spark then look at why the fuel pump is not pressurising.

Once you have fuel pressure should start if not

Look at crank and cam sensors

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 04:50:49 am »
So you've turned the switch to on and pressed both buttons for two seconds and get no codes?

Also, you should never have to spray starting fluid into a fuel injected bike, but if I did I would spray into the front intakes under the headlights rather than taking the bike apart to go into the airbox. 

This really smells like a battery issue.  How do you know the battery is good?  I've been doing some web searching and this really looks like battery/connections.  Do you have another battery you can try?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 05:57:17 am by VirginiaJim »
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 06:45:15 am »
Quote
like it doesn't have a good connection or ground

I think you have nailed the root problem right here.  I'll bet it's the (-) battery lead terminal where it connects to the frame.  Remove the bolt, use a bit of sandpaper or emery cloth and abrade the Aluminum Oxide on the connection point, smear a tiny bit of grease on it to inhibit further corrosion, reinstall the lead, and then try it again.

This is a relatively common problem and it's easy to fix.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 11:28:37 am »
I think you have nailed the root problem right here.  I'll bet it's the (-) battery lead terminal where it connects to the frame.  Remove the bolt, use a bit of sandpaper or emery cloth and abrade the Aluminum Oxide on the connection point, smear a tiny bit of grease on it to inhibit further corrosion, reinstall the lead, and then try it again.

This is a relatively common problem and it's easy to fix.

that's a good start...
I always recommend this first.

but the issue of spraying starting fluid into the airbox thing has me a bit concerned..... I'm thinking some sensors just got wasted....

edit to add.....

I have a really bad habit of going back and looking at posts made by people with issues, just to see what they have done to their bike in the past, and problems they have had....


so, did you install ZX14 throttle bodies on this bike????
just asking.....
has this bike been altered in any other way? different mapping? airfilter? header? what else was done?

just had to ask, because daily we try to assist, without people saying just how much stuff they messed with already...
spraying stuff in the airbox is bad, also....

I used to get at least 3 emails a month when I was tech editor, stating the following:
" my bike was running fine up untill last week, I washed it, now it won't start/run, what is wrong with it...???"

all I could do at that point is ask, "what color is it?"

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Offline jwh20

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 11:41:38 am »
that's a good start...
I always recommend this first.

but the issue of spraying starting fluid into the airbox thing has me a bit concerned..... I'm thinking some sensors just got wasted....

Starting fluid should never be needed with an FI engine like the C14's.  The TBs are spraying fuel vapor (or should be) no matter what.  I've noticed that EFI vehicles (cars and bikes) will often crank with a bad battery or a poor connection but the electronics, which are needed to activate the fuel-injectors and fire the spark plugs, are very sensitive to low voltages or goofy transients caused by bad grounding.

Granted, there could be a problem with the ECU or the sensors or just about anything else, but it's always best to eliminate the simple stuff before getting to the complex and expensive bits.  I've seen too many strange issues caused by bad grounding on both the C14 and the ZX-14 which share a similar design for the frame ground point.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 01:46:24 pm »
Battery and connections, 9 out of 10 times, that's the issue.  And just because you just bought a new battery doesn't make it good.
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Offline stlhrsrdr

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 04:02:42 pm »
K/N filter , area P full exhaust , flies removed , PCIII , map from fuel Moto .

Starting fluid was used as a diagnostic tool , to confirm no spark . Sprayed into the opening below headlight first . No visible corrosion on either of the 2 grounds connected to the frame near the battery , 1 goes to the battery and the other goes to the engine .

Battery shows 12.83 vdc using my Fluke multimeter . BUT , gauge cluster only shows 9-10.4 vdc .

I have a Kawasaki service manual . I am going to remove grounds again this evening , and scuff both cable ends and where the cables contact the frame

Going to talk with dealer tomorrow , hopefully they will have a simple answer .

Thanks for all responses

Offline gPink

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 04:08:08 pm »
K/N filter , area P full exhaust , flies removed , PCIII , map from fuel Moto .

Starting fluid was used as a diagnostic tool , to confirm no spark . Sprayed into the opening below headlight first . No visible corrosion on either of the 2 grounds connected to the frame near the battery , 1 goes to the battery and the other goes to the engine .

Battery shows 12.83 vdc using my Fluke multimeter . BUT , gauge cluster only shows 9-10.4 vdc .

I have a Kawasaki service manual . I am going to remove grounds again this evening , and scuff both cable ends and where the cables contact the frame

Going to talk with dealer tomorrow , hopefully they will have a simple answer .

Thanks for all responses

Looks can be deceiving. Also once ground connections are physically cleaned take the Power Commander out of the loop and recheck.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 04:15:18 pm »
Battery shows 12.83 vdc using my Fluke multimeter . BUT , gauge cluster only shows 9-10.4 vdc .

That, alone, is troubling.  And I assume that is while the engine is not turning (thus, there is no alternator).  Measuring the battery with no load usually tells you very little, if it is near the 13V mark... but if it is NOT, that could mean a bad battery (or just not fully charged).

The C14 is extremely sensitive to bad grounds, low voltages, poor condition batteries, and poor battery connections.  If we had a dollar for every time this was the cause of a mysterious problem, we would be rich :)   Even happened on my own Concours.  So that is why everyone is animate about checking ALL the battery and ground terminals and connections and making sure they are all corrosion-free and tight.
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Offline Charlie747

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 04:25:34 pm »
The only true way to test battery condition is to give it a discharge test, voltage across the terminals tells us very little.

Also FI systems require pressure to work so repeat check why fuel pump is not working when ingnition first switched on.

Earthing problems could well lay at the root of your troubles

Offline jwh20

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 04:28:49 pm »
Quote
K/N filter , area P full exhaust , flies removed , PCIII , map from fuel Moto .

Starting fluid was used as a diagnostic tool , to confirm no spark . Sprayed into the opening below headlight first . No visible corrosion on either of the 2 grounds connected to the frame near the battery , 1 goes to the battery and the other goes to the engine .

1) Disconnect the PCIII, better yet, uninstall it and get a SISF flash.  Works better and is much more reliable!
2) Aluminum Oxide looks just like Aluminum.  You cannot see corrosion on Aluminum.  If it's been exposed to air, it has a layer of corrosion on it.

Offline stlhrsrdr

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 07:02:13 pm »
Removed both ground cables , near the battery , and sanded them and frame with 150 grit Emory , no change .

What exactly is " Imobilizer error " ? Security ?

No fuel pump prime , secondary fly actuator making noise like a bad connection . AND taillight has a dim glow , once key is OFF . Unplugged taillight , no change .

There should be more ground connections than these 2 , I would think . Haven't had time to study wiring schematic any tonight . Going to talk with the dealer tomorrow , and back to scratching my head tomorrow afternoon .

Thanks for all the help and ideas !

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 07:59:07 pm »
I'm still thinking you should try another battery if you can.  There have been cases where I think connectors meet in a bunch, have gone bad.  Not sure if this is the case with yours.  Someone should be able to check that battery.  That's a pretty big voltage drop.  Again, I think it could be the battery.  Some good tips here.  I wish you luck on this.
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Offline Charlie747

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 03:02:55 am »
Please keep us all in the loop on this one as its really intriguing.  Best of luck at the dealers.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2016, 03:12:31 pm »
K/N filter , area P full exhaust , flies removed , PCIII , map from fuel Moto .

Starting fluid was used as a diagnostic tool , to confirm no spark . Sprayed into the opening below headlight first . No visible corrosion on either of the 2 grounds connected to the frame near the battery , 1 goes to the battery and the other goes to the engine .

Battery shows 12.83 vdc using my Fluke multimeter . BUT , gauge cluster only shows 9-10.4 vdc .


I have a Kawasaki service manual . I am going to remove grounds again this evening , and scuff both cable ends and where the cables contact the frame

Going to talk with dealer tomorrow , hopefully they will have a simple answer .

Thanks for all responses

this is getting very painful to watch.
how does spraying starter fluid into the front intakes, or airbox verify spark? especially when the butterfly's are closed....?
nope... bad test.
as for volts on display.... while cranking does it drop? or wasn't that tried?
you don't have enough volts to actuate the fuel pump correctly, and also the fluttering buzzing on the throttle sensor/actuator is a sign of low volts... there is missing/low volts to ECU feedback to stabilize it.
Immobilizer warning is a sign of low volts, and F! errors also are driven by volts... it needs correct volts to do anything, so the connections you say are fine, on the battery itself, are still suspect.. till you actually abrasively clean them... we cant say why you dont have volts....
also, if you cannot invoke the actual error codes present, by pressing both buttons for over 2 seconds with the ignition switch on.... you probably still don't have volts... everything related to analysis requires correct voltage thru the bikes electronics

Until you can invoke the error codes, there is not much that can be done here by us, to help... and when you do get correct volts, and can invoke the code readouts, there will likely be about a half dozen of them showing... we just did this last week on the COG forum with another forum member,who recently installed a NEW battery... and went thru this whole thing.. exactly... but they hadn't done any parts mods.  The errors that showed up in the codes would have made you think every major system on the bike was shot...

this is what popped up on his...
23 -  Camshaft position sensor (EX) malfunction, wiring open or short
24 -  Speed sensor malfunction
26 -  Camshaft position sensor (IN) malfunction, wiring open or short
59 -  Valve timing abnormal
64 -  Air switching valve malfunction, wiring open or short

all were induced by low volts to system... and all, including F1 cleared themselves once battery corrected, and a short ride to allow system to re-read systems and reset.

while you are at it, have the battery load tested... I don't care what your volt meter is saying, or what brand it is, NEW batteries can be failed batteries and your voltage readings lead to suspect this.

as you did finally reveal some of the changes made, after the fact, like the PCIII, flies removed, and other stuff, which we really needed to know right off...

I'll ask again....
did you install ZX14 throttle bodies on this bike???????

I can't see how "talking" to the dealer will give you anything, and likely even if the bike was taken there, a tech will probably be a clueless as the dealer himself...



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Offline fmwhit

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Re: Cranks , but won't start !
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2016, 03:20:54 pm »
Stlhrsrdr I am located in Newburgh NY if your somewhere close I would be happy to give you a hand.

Fred
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