Author Topic: Bike is dead, Jim!  (Read 4907 times)

Offline bob h

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2018, 06:40:39 am »
The sequence of operations in the Loctite instructions is the best way to insure all surfaces are coated with dielectric grease. There are no solids in the stuff, it's just pushed out of all the spots where the two surfaces actually touch.

I suspect many confuse dielectric grease with heat sink grease.  Many formulations of heat sink grease have insulating solids in it, and will prevent good electrical contact.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 09:54:10 am by bob h »

Offline jwh20

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2018, 09:20:01 am »
The sequence of operations in the Loctite instructions is the best way to insure all surfaces are coated with dielectric grease. There are no solids in the stuff, it's just pushed out of all the spots where the two surfaces actually touch.

I suspect many confuse dielectric grease with heat sink grease.  Heat sink grease does have insulating solids in it, and will prevent good electrical contact.

Good point about dielectric grease and it's purpose.  Some confused individuals have the mistaken belief that because it's "dielectric" (i.e. an insulator) that it's not suitable for battery connections.  In fact this indicates that those people have a misunderstanding about how electrical connections work and what happens to dielectric grease when used between conductors as suggested in this thread.

1) The grease itself is not conductive and therefore it does not enhance the electrical connectivity of the junction directly.
2) The mating surfaces of the terminals, while appearing to be smooth, are anything but from a microscopic viewpoint so in reality only the highest points of the "landscape" actually touch.
3) The "valleys" where nothing touches are the areas of concern since these often allow contaminants to enter and corrosion to build up.  As with so many materials, an oxide or sulfate of the base material (in this case copper and/or lead) is many times larger than the material itself and so the oxidation can actually generate enough force as it forms to push the contacting points apart and allow even more non-conducting corrosion to form.
4) The dielectric grease fills these "valleys" or voids and inhibits the formation of corrosion both between the two surfaces and around the edges so that the contacting points are much more stable over time.

So, in spite of "common" sense (which is anything but common in my experience), which says that putting a non-conductive coating on electrical connections is a bad thing, in fact, it's a good thing and creates a better and more reliable connection.

Offline jimmymac

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2018, 10:03:10 am »
Good point about dielectric grease and it's purpose.  Some confused individuals have the mistaken belief that because it's "dielectric" (i.e. an insulator) that it's not suitable for battery connections.  In fact this indicates that those people have a misunderstanding about how electrical connections work and what happens to dielectric grease when used between conductors as suggested in this thread.

1) The grease itself is not conductive and therefore it does not enhance the electrical connectivity of the junction directly.
2) The mating surfaces of the terminals, while appearing to be smooth, are anything but from a microscopic viewpoint so in reality only the highest points of the "landscape" actually touch.
3) The "valleys" where nothing touches are the areas of concern since these often allow contaminants to enter and corrosion to build up.  As with so many materials, an oxide or sulfate of the base material (in this case copper and/or lead) is many times larger than the material itself and so the oxidation can actually generate enough force as it forms to push the contacting points apart and allow even more non-conducting corrosion to form.
4) The dielectric grease fills these "valleys" or voids and inhibits the formation of corrosion both between the two surfaces and around the edges so that the contacting points are much more stable over time.

So, in spite of "common" sense (which is anything but common in my experience), which says that putting a non-conductive coating on electrical connections is a bad thing, in fact, it's a good thing and creates a better and more reliable connection.
Good read. Easy as pie.
Your post count is 314.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2018, 11:09:05 am »
Loctite Dielectric Grease: http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/ShowPDF/LB%208423-EN?pid=LB%208423&format=MTR&subformat=REAC&language=EN&plant=WERCS

Directions for use:

2. For connectors and battery terminals
  • Make sure ignition system is off.
  • Clean surfaces with appropriate cleaner such as Loctite® Pro Strength Parts Cleaner or Loctite® Battery Cleaner.
  • Coat both parts with grease.
  • Reassemble.
Here's a test, although I can't get the vid to play within this post:

! No longer available



Plays for me when I click on the link.  Using Chrome?
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Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2018, 11:26:04 am »
the two main points are the place the 2 ground wires attach to just in front of the battery, remove those 2 bolts, and scrub the aluminum on the frame with sandpaper, and wipe it down clean with solvent, also clean both the ring lugs on the cable ends that contact the frame, when bolted back on...same manner... the battery connection/wire lug/terminal also requires the same treatment.
(don't worry about the extra red and black wires I show in the below photo, those run to my remotely mounted aux fuse block)

Ahh, thanks, these places I know of.  My fear is that there were others that I was missing.

Thank you, MOB

Side note: I think I have 2 additional connector on the positive side, my heated gear/battery tender and power to a relay that runs my dual horns.   I had 3 at one point when I was powering my HID, long since removed since I went to LED.  There is not much room to work behind that battery cover.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2018, 11:42:31 am »

Plays for me when I click on the link.  Using Chrome?

Chrome and Firefox. I can click the link fine, but don't see the actual video appearing my post as I see sometimes.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2018, 11:45:01 am »
Chrome has issues with this site as far as vids go.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2018, 02:04:22 pm »
I suppose if you want to believe what LocTite says, in order to sell a product it makes, for a purpose that it truly misrepresents the real benefit, that's fine with me.
from the Loctite data sheet;
"LOCTITE®
LB 8423 is a silicone dielectric compound that
facilitates and improves tune-ups. The compound prevents
voltage leakage around any electrical connector thereby
insuring a strong spark in high energy ignition systems. It is
also an excellent lubricant on rubber, plastic and ceramic
surfaces, and it also has good high temperature properties,
thus preventing fusing of spark plug boots to the spark plug
itself. Typical applications include spark plug boots, distributor
cap nipples,
battery terminals, ignition coil connectors, and
trailer electrical connectors. This product is typically used in
applications with an operating range of -55 °C to 204 °C."

TYPICAL PROPERTIES OF CURED MATERIAL
Electrical Properties:
Dielectric Breakdown Strength,
IEC 60243-1,       kV/mm                   19.8
Dielectric Constant / Dissipation Factor, IEC 60250:   1kHz 3.0 / 0.007
Volume Resistivity, IEC 60093, Ω·cm 2.6×1015

it does not carry current, it is a strongly resistive coating. 

they add battery terminals just to increase sales....



As I noted, having worked decades in power quality products, that carry current up to and over 4000 amps, and MUST be reliable to not fail, due to a connection that has been compromised which could bring down infrastructure of major cities, utilities, or government security, I suggest you actually read about the product I linked to....

https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html

if they were simply into only selling a product, they would have done what LocTite did...
which is to name 2 other products they sell, to clean the contact surfaces prior to making the connection... but as an industry provider they don't... because they know how to make a reliable connection... and explain it with the step LocTite seems to have forgotten, the part about the cleaning... and the correct means of cleaning....

from the SanChem site....

How to Apply Conductive Grease to Battery Terminals:

*Disconnect the connector from the terminal. When taking the battery out first disconnect the negative terminal (-), then disconnect the positive (+).
*Degrease the terminal post.
*Neutralize the area – this is normally done with baking soda & water (1 lb/ 1 gal.)
*Use a toothpick size steel wire brush to buff the face of the terminal post until the face is bright lead.
*Next, apply a light coating of NO-OX-ID A-Special to all four faces of the terminal post.
*Reattach the cables to the battery. When reattaching the battery, first connect the positive (+) connection then reattach the negative terminal (-).

use whatever you want, in any manner you want to use it in....  use Vaseline, it probably works as good, when applied like that LocTite product, for what that's worth.

I do know about reliable electrical connections tho, and prevention of degradation to them. I wish I could show you I.R. scans of various connections, carrying high amp loads, on products I designed, it would be clear then. Loose bolts, greased connections, etc., Funny part is, I just last month signed off on a patent for a system of I.R. ports I designed;(windows applied to the external walls of large switchgear enclosures) to allow safe scanning of internal bolted bus bar current carrying connections to see if they are 'getting hot' due to compromised clamping forces on bolts over time, from thermal cycling.
Even tho I haven't slept at a Holiday Inn Express for a while, I do know the difference between Dielectric and Electrically Conductive greases. (not to be confused with thermally conductive pastes)...

below shows the "low end" of the ampacity range in current products, based on my designs as Sr. Mech Product Engineer, prior to ABB's recent aquisition of the company I worked for. The larger products, like 4000amp/3 source units I designed, were quite large, 7ft hi x 6 ft dp x 16 ft long... containing about 3/4 ton of copper bus bars, and at least six 350 lb. circuit breakers/molded case switches.  :rotflmao:

loks like this inside...


I designed all of the enclosures, and every mechanical aspect of the components and installation of such, in every one of the products in this brochure;
https://tinyurl.com/y8nwlhux

Loved my job.


https://youtu.be/rZsk_nKJjks
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 03:53:51 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2018, 04:46:17 pm »
Well, Loctite didn't put their directions in this order:

3. Reassemble.
4. Coat both parts with grease.

 :)


If the connection loosens, is air more likely to conduct electricity than grease? Nah. Probably about the same: Nil.

Like I had said before, a thin coating probably won’t be an issue, especially like on a battery terminal with a tight connection. It will cause an issue if you use to much on a weather pack connector or similar plug. That is where the ATV and SxS guys always run into problems with dielectric grease. Too much grease and you will drop connections on these. Seen it many times!

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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2018, 10:20:03 pm »
I suppose if you want to believe what LocTite says, in order to sell a product it makes, for a purpose that it truly misrepresents the real benefit ...

I'd suggest you convey this information to Loctite and get them to correct their directions. I would do it myself, but I don't have your credentials and so likely wouldn't be taken seriously.

Let us know how it goes!  :thumbs: :chugbeer:

Offline Conrad

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Re: Bike is dead, Jim!
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2018, 04:59:34 am »
I'd suggest you convey this information to Loctite and get them to correct their directions. I would do it myself, but I don't have your credentials and so likely wouldn't be taken seriously.

Let us know how it goes!  :thumbs: :chugbeer:

 :popcorn:
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