Author Topic: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?  (Read 14585 times)

Offline fartymarty

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Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« on: June 30, 2011, 04:31:45 pm »
I usually understand most tech stuff better than the average person, but it seems to me that the average person on this forum is above average in the
tech area of intelligence. I am sort of understanding some of it, but with PowerCommanders, TREs, Autotune and then reflashing it gets confusing.
I've been trying to determine what is best for me to improve performance of my '10 connie, but I would like to fully understand what each of the options
is actually doing. I do not want to remove my secondaries, and I do not want to remove the spud launcher (I like ugly quiet better than less quiet). I'm leaning
towards a reflash or GoPro ATRE but I'm not sure what all my options are with the reflash. I could put what I think I understand on here and see if it's correct,
but then why wave my ignorance in your face? Is there a primer or a lengthy post that would sort of tie all these options together? I've been looking but I
haven't found one yet. Fred H.'s GoPro ATRE review was very understandable and I like the idea of Mode 4 that has no effect in first qear for slow speed control,
however I'm not so thrilled with the gear indicator stuff.  :-\  So having said all that, I'll repeat....

Is there a primer or a lengthy post that would sort of tie all these options together to help me understand what each does?

Offline C14THUNDER

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 07:17:10 pm »
For your simple desires a simple ecu flash will take care of your needs.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 09:08:44 pm »
There was a PILE of information on the old site but it was spread out and some of it (of course) was contradictory. This site is too new to have that much info. and unfortunately a lot of the old info. was new at the time anyway and isn't likely to be repeated. Put another way, all of us were going through the learning curve with C-14's and that phase is over; some of the great contributors / discoverers are not even 'here' anymore and have not been around for quite some time.

I can give you a brief overview for whatever that is worth....

There are basically two different aspects of tuning / power increase on the C-14; one is altering the air / fuel mix to have the bike run better and / or have more power (we are not restricted as Kawasaki is by the EPA), and altering how far and how early the secondary butterflies ('the 'flies ') open. Unfortunately these two things get mixed together because when the 'flies are removed the air / fuel mixture is usually changed by some other device. Because both things happen together and the fuel mix compliments the 'flies removal, it appears like they are related but that is not actually the case.

First the mixture: the air/ fuel mixture is set to meet emissions standards and may not be, and is usually not ideal for performance or running characteristics. Basically and simply put, the mixture is controlled by how long the fuel injectors are held open (open twice as long means twice as much fuel delivered per engine cycle and so forth), and the injector duration is controlled by a "map" or look-up table in the ECU on the bike. So the ECU gathers the data that pertains to mixture including throttle opening, engine RPM and looks for the 'cell' where those two things cross and use the number in that cell. That number is then modified by ambient temp., engine temp., barometric pressure and similar inputs (important but secondary to throttle opening and engine RPM) and uses them to modify the number that was in the cell and then you have a fuel injector 'on' time (which directly controls how much fuel is injected of course). There are two basic ways to alter the factory map: the first way is by using something like a Power Commander or similar which will contain its own map and lean or enrich the mixture by adding to or subtracting from the ECU's 'on' time. Example: the ECU chooses 45 milliseconds of 'on' time but the Power Commander uses its own map to determine that it will increase that on time by 10%. The Power Commander simply interrupts the signal to the injectors, adjusts the pulse duration ('on' time) and then sends that time to the injector.

The second way to alter a factory map is to reload ('flash') the original map in the ECU with another, custom written one. Basically the same effect as the Power Commander but it does not require external hardware.

The secondary 'flies  in a C-14 are controlled by the ECU and will override the manual throttle plates (the ones you have control over via the throttle). They are only used at low and mid RPM ranges but significantly reduce engine torque (and therefore power) at those speeds. The ECU gradually opens the secondary throttle plates as the engine RPM comes up allowing a bigger and bigger percentage of available engine power to be used until they are fully open and no longer restricting the engine.

The biggest single performance difference available on a C-14, at least at low and medium RPM (below 7K RPM) is to remove those secondary throttle plates so they are effectively 'open' all the time. That way when you dial in 1/4 throttle, there are no other throttle plates ('flies) in the way which may only be open 1/16 throttle. Recently several companies have been offering a re-flash service for the ECU, and one of the things that can be altered is how far and how fast (at what RPM) the secondaries are open. Fully opening them all the time should also be an option on a re-flash. The re-flash can (and should) also re-map the mixture control map to compensate for all that additional air going into the engine when the secondaries would normally be closed far more than the main throttle plates.

If the 'flies are removed, then the air / fuel mixture is usually compensated either by using a Power Commander (or similar item from another company) or by re-flashing the ECU on the bike.

In addition to all of that there is the ATRE, which changes both the 'flies opening as well as the mixture by fooling the engine into thinking it is in a different gear than it really is. The 'flies open sooner in sixth gear so that is usually the gear chosen to get the most power out of a C-14. According to those who have used both 'flies removal as well as adding an ATRE, the ATRE is about 1/2 as effective as removing the 'flies. You could do both together but there is little to gain with an ATRE once the 'flies are physically removed anyway. By the way, the name of that device, Advanced Timing Retard Eliminator really does not change the timing beyond using the timing map for the gear chosen. Confusing, huh?

There are your options:

1) Add a P.C. and re-map the mixture. The bike may run better, get better mileage and there may be a slight increase in overall power but nothing drastic. About $300 and maps are readily available, especially if you buy the P.C. from FuelMoto as you can have all of their maps at no cost. You can also tinker with the mixture yourself with a laptop if you want to. Removing the P.C. will bring the bike back to stock. No physical mods. needed on the bike itself (the P.C. wires into a harness on the bike).
2) Add a ATRE. About $150 or so. More power in lower gears but the gear indicator will read incorrectly. Some ATREs come with a digital gear position indicator to use in place of the factory one so the correct gear is indicated. No mods. to the bike itself and simply removing the ATRE brings the bike back to stock.
3) Pull the 'flies and add a P.C. About $300 if you remove the 'flies yourself. Large increase in low to mid- range power. Possible increase in mileage although using the increase in available power will eat all of that and more possibly. The bike may run better due to the P.C. if the correct map is used. This one is tougher to undo because the 'flies have to be reinstalled and the P.C. removed. The 'flies need to be centered in the venturi of the throttle bodies. Also, if you break a secondary throttle plate screw when the 'flies are removed they can no longer be reinstalled (the mod. is no longer reversible).
4) Pull the 'flies and do nothing else. No cost. Some have reported good results doing this but I would be wary of the engine running lean. I don't have any data to support that though so I really do not know one way or the other. If you wanted to do that I would suggest having the bike tuned on a dynamometer to make sure the mixture was acceptable. Again, the 'flies have to be reinstalled to reverse this mod.
5) Re-flash the ECU. Cost seems to be around $400 or so. You should be able to get about any condition you want out of this mod. if the re-flash contains good data. In other words, if the 'flies opening routines are altered properly and the mixture maps are also altered properly. Undoing this mod. requires the ECU be re-flashed again with the stock data. It should be easy enough to do but will cost an additional $400 or whatever the first re-flash cost. Of course the bike will be down as it will not have an ECU while yours is being sent off and re-flashed.

This whole thing gets more complex on 2010 and later bikes with traction control because T.C. uses the secondary 'flies to control the engine's output should the rear wheel slip. There is not much info. on what happens to one of these bikes if the secondaries are removed and traction control is activated; the ECU still has control over the power output through the fuel mixture (it withholds fuel when the rear wheel slips) and retards the timing but because the ECU would also be trying to close the throttle but could not, the response speed of the traction control could be affected.

Well, I guess that wasn't all that brief. Not sure if I cleared this matter a bit for you or made it more complicated but like Big Al said- 'Make everything is simple as possible.... but no simpler'.  :D

Brian



I usually understand most tech stuff better than the average person, but it seems to me that the average person on this forum is above average in the
tech area of intelligence. I am sort of understanding some of it, but with PowerCommanders, TREs, Autotune and then reflashing it gets confusing.
I've been trying to determine what is best for me to improve performance of my '10 connie, but I would like to fully understand what each of the options
is actually doing. I do not want to remove my secondaries, and I do not want to remove the spud launcher (I like ugly quiet better than less quiet). I'm leaning
towards a reflash or GoPro ATRE but I'm not sure what all my options are with the reflash. I could put what I think I understand on here and see if it's correct,
but then why wave my ignorance in your face? Is there a primer or a lengthy post that would sort of tie all these options together? I've been looking but I
haven't found one yet. Fred H.'s GoPro ATRE review was very understandable and I like the idea of Mode 4 that has no effect in first qear for slow speed control,
however I'm not so thrilled with the gear indicator stuff.  :-\  So having said all that, I'll repeat....

Is there a primer or a lengthy post that would sort of tie all these options together to help me understand what each does?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Reddogger

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 10:38:01 am »
Bryan, I think you successfully combined probably a thousand or so sometimes conflicting words and concepts into a easily understood explanation of the available options to glean a bit more power from our bikes.  Thank you. 
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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 06:59:10 pm »
Thanks Bryan! I was hoping the primer was already written somewhere and I was only requesting a pointer to it. Instead you wrote one! Very much above and beyond, Thanks!

So...the only thing you left out (I think) is the AutoTune....lets see if I already understand that part...Autotune is another box that connects to a PC (Power Commander) and
rewrites the fuel map on the fly sota speak based on what info it gets from an Oxygen sensor (or is it two sensors?) which needs to be added to the exhaust system because there is
not one already on the bike (c14 of any year so far). The Oxygen sensor requires a "bung" which is sort of like a hole in the exhaust with a nut welded over it for installation? ...is any of that correct?

Since I have a '10 with traction control I'm leaning towards the reflash which if I understand it can pretty much do it all except the autotune on the fly remapping (assuming I understand that correctly). I guess my next questions need to be addressed directly to the re-flashers, but I'll put a few of them here and come back with any answers I receive for informational purposes.
1. Can the re-flash leave first gear performance about the same or smoother as the mode 4 on the GoProATRE does? (I think they will say yes.)
2.  The opening of the flies, can the traction control over ride the re-flashed ecu even if the re-flash opens them all the time? (I think they will say yes.)
3. Many have removed the flies entirely and yet the post about the Buhl re-flash only opened them 200 rpm sooner than the stock ECU. Something doesn't compute?..and adds to my earlier confusion. (I'm not sure what they will say.)

Bryan, I think you successfully combined probably a thousand or so sometimes conflicting words and concepts into a easily understood explanation of the available options to glean a bit more power from our bikes.  Thank you. 

AGREED! ..what he said

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 07:24:17 pm »
Glad to help if I can....

Yes, you have all of that exactly right. In addition to adding an O2 sensor for auto tuning, an external module is also needed. It works as you describe but because of the additional hardware it costs more than just the sensor alone. The bung in the exhaust is required for the O2 sensor.

What can be done with the original ECU is basically only limited by the knowledge and skill of the person who is doing the re-flash. All the things you mention are possible. There is one thing to consider though: in your scenario of fully opened 'flies still functioning as a traction control device, I do not think that will work very well. It is certainly possible as far as the ECU goes but the secondary butterflies are controlled by a relatively slow stepper motor and do not move quickly. Most examples where traction control would be engaged would be where the secondary 'flies start off relatively close to closed, not fully open. In those instances the 'flies would not have to move much to reduce the engine's power and eliminate the wheel spin; starting with the 'flies wide- open, the stepper motor that moves them could not close them far enough, fast enough to stop the rear wheel spin. You can watch the secondary 'flies move anytime you want- just turn the ign. from OFF to ON and they go through a full movement cycle; they do not move very fast. So I think the limitation in this case is the mechanics of the secondary 'flies control and ability to move, not any limitation that would prevent programming the ECU to behave as you suggest.

Yes, there was a gentleman here suggesting leaving the 'flies operating in a similar way as they do stock for better performance or throttle control or something. His premise was that the secondaries would serve as a quasi- variable length intake system. I disagree with that theory as the intake throats are far to short to 'simulate' much of an increase in length and besides that, I do not believe that is why the secondary 'flies are there in the first place. Put another way, Kawasaki did not 'tune' them, they are just there as a low RPM power limiter.

Just my opinion but at this moment in time, given a 2010 or later with traction control, I think I would still remove the 'flies and add a P.C. Several reasons for this: one is that I think traction control will still work given that the ECU can, and does, withhold fuel. I would simply try it <gently> in some sand and see how it reacted. Secondly I think this is the best value for performance and easily reversible at no cost. Finally, it has performed well for me on my '08 and I do not really see any clear avenue of improvement nor does the bike's performance fall short in any way that I have found.

Brian



Thanks Bryan! I was hoping the primer was already written somewhere and I was only requesting a pointer to it. Instead you wrote one! Very much above and beyond, Thanks!

So...the only thing you left out (I think) is the AutoTune....lets see if I already understand that part...Autotune is another box that connects to a PC (Power Commander) and
rewrites the fuel map on the fly sota speak based on what info it gets from an Oxygen sensor (or is it two sensors?) which needs to be added to the exhaust system because there is
not one already on the bike (c14 of any year so far). The Oxygen sensor requires a "bung" which is sort of like a hole in the exhaust with a nut welded over it for installation? ...is any of that correct?

Since I have a '10 with traction control I'm leaning towards the reflash which if I understand it can pretty much do it all except the autotune on the fly remapping (assuming I understand that correctly). I guess my next questions need to be addressed directly to the re-flashers, but I'll put a few of them here and come back with any answers I receive for informational purposes.
1. Can the re-flash leave first gear performance about the same or smoother as the mode 4 on the GoProATRE does? (I think they will say yes.)
2.  The opening of the flies, can the traction control over ride the re-flashed ecu even if the re-flash opens them all the time? (I think they will say yes.)
3. Many have removed the flies entirely and yet the post about the Buhl re-flash only opened them 200 rpm sooner than the stock ECU. Something doesn't compute?..and adds to my earlier confusion. (I'm not sure what they will say.)

AGREED! ..what he said
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2011, 10:58:00 am »
the secondary butterflies are controlled by a relatively slow stepper motor and do not move quickly. Most examples where traction control would be engaged would be where the secondary 'flies start off relatively close to closed, not fully open. In those instances the 'flies would not have to move much to reduce the engine's power and eliminate the wheel spin; starting with the 'flies wide- open, the stepper motor that moves them could not close them far enough, fast enough to stop the rear wheel spin. You can watch the secondary 'flies move anytime you want- just turn the ign. from OFF to ON and they go through a full movement cycle; they do not move very fast. So I think the limitation in this case is the mechanics of the secondary 'flies control and ability to move, not any limitation that would prevent programming the ECU to behave as you suggest.

Brian are you basing this totally on the speed that you see the flies operate during the power on test movement cycle (not necessarily being done at top speed) , or do you know that this is a slow motor. I have seen some extremely fast stepper motors on computer tape drives and some really slow ones on telescopes.
Glad to help if I can....

Brian
Thanks again, for helping me, and those that will follow.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2011, 11:58:56 am »
Partially yes, but also on the size of the stepper motor- it just isn't going to go very fast. Nor does it have to under normal circumstances but 'fooling' the ECU into holding them wide open and then suddenly needing them to be closed or nearly so is a requirement that the designer never envisioned or planned on having.

Fast stepper motors are called servo motors. Really fast stepper motors are called voice coil motors. (that is a joke, steppers, servos and voice coil motors are all radically different in design as well as performance qualities)

Brian


Brian are you basing this totally on the speed that you see the flies operate during the power on test movement cycle (not necessarily being done at top speed) , or do you know that this is a slow motor. I have seen some extremely fast stepper motors on computer tape drives and some really slow ones on telescopes. Thanks again, for helping me, and those that will follow.
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Offline Rawman

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 02:28:46 pm »
Just to add to answer your last question....

The O2 sensor and Auto-Tune module is strictly for the Power Commander V.  I do not believe Kawasaki has an OEM "Auto-Tune" (closed loop system), even though the European bikes have them.  I think it is a different ECU altogether.

The PC-V Auto Tune will change your A/F map on the fly, slowly making changes to whatever you program it for.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2011, 02:37:17 pm »
This is going to get moved to the C14 Wiki FAQ shortly.  Brian, thank you so much for putting this together.  So, lets keep this all FAQ material and stay on point.  Thanks in to all who have contributed to this and thanks to all who may contribute in the future.
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Offline Fretka

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2011, 11:51:46 am »

" I do not want to remove my secondaries, and I do not want to remove the spud launcher (I like ugly quiet better than less quiet)."

If ya want simple: More air through the motor = more power.

Given your statement above, leave your bike stock.

By no means have someone else re-program your ECU.

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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 06:17:58 pm »

By no means have someone else re-program your ECU.

Fretka

...and you say this...WHY?  :stirpot:

Offline Fretka

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 06:30:32 pm »
'cuz you have no idea what mapping you are plugging into your bike and its a 1 shot deal.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 08:07:21 pm »
True, and if you do want to modify the map later, it is another fee for each upload. At $350 and more per 'flash', the expense would add up pretty quickly. If the software and cables necessary for the owner to re-flash the ECU, along with the software to make sense of the various maps (fuel, timing, secondary 'flies opening, etc.) could be had for a reasonable price, it might be worth it. As things stand a Power Commander seems to be a much more reasonable and flexible alternative at least in my opinion.

Brian



'cuz you have no idea what mapping you are plugging into your bike and its a 1 shot deal.

Freka
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Offline lt1

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Re: Fuel mapping fly opening primer/advice?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 10:48:24 pm »
For all the intelligence of the posters, there is some misinformation in the posts.  I would strongly suggest that you contact Guhl Motors about both the cost of the flash and subsequent reflashes.  IIRC, the flash is $375, but I believe that subsequent re-flashes are significantly less.

The flash was developed for stock bikes and has significant performance gains.  It is not a "one-shot" deal.  The ECU can be reflashed, whether back to stock or for later upgrades.

IMO, the reflash is the best option for many riders.  True, you cannot pull the "flash" and sell it at the end like a PCIII or PCV, but that is about the only downside.  K-TRAC remains function and transparent from the reports of those who have had the Guhl re-flash done.

I have not followed the Dynatronics reflash as closely, so have not comments there, other than they also seem to be competent. 

My ECU will be going off to Guhl either later this week or early next week.  As a side note, there is a planned usb-ecu connector in the works that will allow the owner to reflash their own ecu.  Currently vaporware with price tbd, but I believe this will happen if there is any kind of response from the C14 community.
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