Author Topic: We're doomed  (Read 12741 times)

Offline Bob Skinner

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 05:00:32 pm »
If you want our kids to compete in the world of open trading then you better find a way to get them some more education. We're ranked in the lower one half worldwide towards educating our young.
For the kids who don't want 16 years of education, they can drop out just like they're doing today. But with this plan they have some "government payback" time.
I don't want the US to fall any closer towards being a third-world country.

Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 05:12:22 pm »
The fedgov education system has worked exactly as planned.
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2017, 05:18:35 am »
Quote from: wally_games on Yesterday at 01:26:54 pm

    I'm sorry, Bob, but there is no such thing as "FREE" public education. I think asking the taxpayers (I definitely am one) to pay for 12 years of that is plenty, especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job.

    I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

    Ok, ready to accept stones being tossed at me.

No stones being tossed here either. I agree completely.

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Offline BruceR

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2017, 06:18:14 am »
My thoughts are that too many embrace the 'need a college degree' mentality.  No one knows how to do things anymore.  I'd rather we focus more on trade schools and teach young people something useful than give them useless degrees.  We're approaching a point where a degree means nothing anymore.

Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2017, 06:20:47 am »
....but....but....that would mean fewer snowflakes. Whatever would we do?
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Offline Classvino

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2017, 09:33:41 am »
...especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job...

At the risk of sounding almost "1984ish", why not make only the "useful" education tracks free - and have the students need to maintain a certain level of competence to avoid having to repay their tuition costs (whether in $ or in time spent in service)...  No more degrees that are only useful to propagating that particular subject...   For example - I know someone who received a doctorate in Medieval English. They are now a tenured professor teaching Medieval English.  I wouldn't go so far as to state that that particular subject is totally useless, but the argument could be made that it really doesn't benefit society at large very much... And there are a whole whack of subjects to which the exact same paradigm could be applied.

I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

I like this idea, but would add "higher education" (i.e. university, college or trade school) with the caveat that the education would have to be deemed beneficial by some more measurable process...

I turned down a music scholarship, not because I didn't like the subject...  I just couldn't see how I'd be able to support myself (and a family) with that as a career...   Obviously any successful rock star would disagree...

And while we're fixing the world  ???, make receiving welfare (and I don't mean to make that sound uniformly derogatory - some people have actually earned it...)  a little less acceptable.  In the neighbourhood I grew up in, there were many 3rd or 4th generation "welfare families" that had absolutely no real incentive to get out of the program. My family worked hard to not be 'on the dole', and sometimes made do with less than the families on the program were receiving.  It's hard to make someone want to work when it's given to them for free.

Way back when.., I was a full-time student with a full-time night job - worked 8hrs, went to school for 6hrs, and slept and did homework the other 10hrs. My marks might have been better if I didn't have to work, but that's how I afforded tuition.
It really ticked me off when I followed somebody that I knew had never held a job, or gone to school, through the supermarket with pasta and bread and other minimum staples in my cart, while they had cheese, steak and snack food in theirs...  All the foods I only saw on trips home for holiday dinners...

Sigh, and now my kids ask for Kraft dinner (that's boxed mac and cheese for my American friends.)...

+1

Jamie
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2017, 03:16:09 pm »
And while we're fixing the world  ???, make receiving welfare (and I don't mean to make that sound uniformly derogatory - some people have actually earned it...)  a little less acceptable.

And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."
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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2017, 03:40:40 pm »
Maybe have to work for it? 

Silly me.... work for welfare?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 03:58:36 pm »
Maybe have to work for it? 

Silly me.... work for welfare?

Same problem.  So they don't work and then what- you can't turn off the money because it will hurt "save the children."  They really are a key complicating factor...  Not the only one, but the most important for sure.
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 07:52:22 pm »
And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."


Here's your statistics on births to unwed mothers.  40% .  Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.childtrends.org/indicators/births-to-unmarried-women/#
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2017, 09:27:57 pm »
Here's your statistics on births to unwed mothers.  40% .  Draw your own conclusions.

Wow, that is even more than what I thought it was.  Look at what has happened in just our lifetimes (well, some of us, anyway... I didn't see that first metric, myself):

1960 5%
1970 11%
1980 18%
1990 28%
2000 32%
2010 41%

Births to unwed non-hispanic-black mothers was a jaw-dropping 73% in 2010.
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Offline Classvino

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2017, 10:55:37 am »
And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."

...you can't turn off the money because it will hurt "save the children."...

Yup. And then it'll be the fault of those trying to "fix" the problem, not those causing it.  Same old, same old...

Certainly a problem with no easy solution...  As much a psychological issue as a financial one when you get right down to it.  How do you change the mindset of any group that has been conditioned to "adopt" a "successful" way of  earning  getting enough money to live on with little or no effort?  It's that whole "attitude of entitlement" thing...  They've learned to think that they 'deserve' it. And we (well, not we personally, but as a society) have done little concrete to disabuse them of the notion.

Not sure if/when it'll happen, but someday the welfare program might bankrupt the providers to the point where it'll have to be discontinued. Can't imagine what'd happen then... Or don't want to imagine it anyway.  It wouldn't be good.

(And just to be clear, I'm not picking on unwed mothers or any particular racial group. The issue might be more prevalent is some sections of society, but certainly happens outside those groups as well.  I'm an equal opportunity complainer.)

Jamie
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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2017, 11:34:00 am »
Yup. And then it'll be the fault of those trying to "fix" the problem, not those causing it.  Same old, same old...

Certainly a problem with no easy solution...  As much a psychological issue as a financial one when you get right down to it.  How do you change the mindset of any group that has been conditioned to "adopt" a "successful" way of  earning  getting enough money to live on with little or no effort?  It's that whole "attitude of entitlement" thing...  They've learned to think that they 'deserve' it. And we (well, not we personally, but as a society) have done little concrete to disabuse them of the notion.

Not sure if/when it'll happen, but someday the welfare program might bankrupt the providers to the point where it'll have to be discontinued. Can't imagine what'd happen then... Or don't want to imagine it anyway.  It wouldn't be good.

(And just to be clear, I'm not picking on unwed mothers or any particular racial group. The issue might be more prevalent is some sections of society, but certainly happens outside those groups as well.  I'm an equal opportunity complainer.)

Jamie
There's been a plan for that for some time....


Cloward–Piven strategy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty".


If for some reason you want to read more... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy
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Offline Rhino

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2017, 12:27:53 pm »
There's been a plan for that for some time....


Cloward–Piven strategy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty distributing poverty equally to everyone"[/b.


If for some reason you want to read more... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

FIFY

Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 01:21:07 pm »
You should make that correction on Wiki....  :thumbs:
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