Author Topic: H4 LED Fitment  (Read 14039 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2017, 05:45:16 pm »
If you go to the Philips site that Mike pointed toward, they specifically say that their product emits 1,000 lumens. This and similar information (Hella, Matsushita, etc.) is the only information I believe to be accurate. The aftermarket crowd can claim a gazillion lumens.... I just do not believe it to be accurate :-)

Still, I think it is great progress if LEDs can equal halogen lighting, especially regarding a crisp cut- off line and possibly surpass it regarding power consumed and heat inside the light housing reduced (I do not really care about the heat sinks behind the reflector housings). And the layout of these new LED lamps is really very impressive, mimicking the physical size and location of H4 filaments. I hope and expect that shortly, as LED technology improves, they will out- distance all other forms of vehicle lighting.

Brian

The specs for the three Lumileds models we have encountered (that all appear to be the same bulbs) in this thread (not counting the Philips which claims 1000LB 1250HB with 6 chips) say 4,000 lumens, 4,600 lumens, and 6,000 lumens per bulb with 8 chips.  The fact that the listings don't agree is troublesome, and one might question the validity of the claims.  The Lumileds do have more [supposedly identical LED] chips on them, but that would still theoretically bring them to only at least 1667 lumens HB by some simple extrapolation, if you based it on Phillip's numbers.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2017, 06:46:11 pm »
If you go to the Philips site that Mike pointed toward, they specifically say that their product emits 1,000 lumens. This and similar information (Hella, Matsushita, etc.) is the only information I believe to be accurate. The aftermarket crowd can claim a gazillion lumens.... I just do not believe it to be accurate :-)


I tend to agree with your statement.  I find it very hard to believe the aftermarket claims for these LED bulbs we are talking about.  Here are the chips I believe are being used (Philips Z-ES Lumileds):

http://www.lumileds.com/products/high-power-leds/luxeon-z-es

Assuming the aftermarkets are not overdriving the chips, the typical luminous flux at 6500K appears to be about 245 per chip.  The Philips bulbs use 6 chips =  1470, and the aftermarket uses 8 = 1960.   Those would be the most optimistic numbers I would believe without further information.   And is all that light actually available?  Not sure.  But I could believe these aftermarkets might be twice as bright as a typical halogen.  But as bright as HID?  I think not.

But.... here is the nearly identical JDM AStar version of the same thing: https://www.amazon.com/JDM-ASTAR-Generation-Extremely-Headlights/dp/B018SYK6GW  I trust them more, only because I have used their other products and they had the most accurate description of wattage and brightness.  In their listing, they list 3500/4000 lumens with 8 lit ZES chips (and 25 W each).  This is the lowest/most reasonable claim so far.  Back to the [supposedly] reliable chip info above, if they are really consuming 25W, the chips are rated at 125 lumens per watt, which would be 3,125 lumens per bulb.  Hmm.

Quote
Still, I think it is great progress if LEDs can equal halogen lighting, especially regarding a crisp cut- off line and possibly surpass it regarding power consumed and heat inside the light housing reduced (I do not really care about the heat sinks behind the reflector housings). And the layout of these new LED lamps is really very impressive, mimicking the physical size and location of H4 filaments. I hope and expect that shortly, as LED technology improves, they will out- distance all other forms of vehicle lighting.


Based on the above info, I think it might be fair to say that these new generation of LED bulbs might be able to reach at least double halogen brightness, if not more.  If comparing to HID, is that good enough?  Depends, let's compare other factors first....

These LED bulbs pros-

* Far less heat (my HID kit does seem to be offgassing from the base and damaging my reflector).
* Easier and faster install.
* Fewer electrical parts (a box yes, but not two like on HID).
* Possibly better cutoff and glare control.
* Instant on with no warmup.
* No mechanical parts (HID uses magnetism for high/low beam switching).
* No vibration or jiggle in the beam (a problem my HID kit has- it is inherent in the design of requiring the bulbs to be pulled in and out for high/low beam).
* No need for high voltage.  Possibly less EMI.  Certainly low inrush current.
* Cutoff rotation.
* The "filament" placement is likely to be more accurate over time.
* Lights are impervious to water/humidity/touch oils.
* Less load on the electrical system (more power for other things).

HID pros-
* More light.
* Probably better CRI (color rendering accuracy).
* More color choice.

Both can be had around the same price.  Both should be a massive improvement over halogen bulbs.  No data on reliability.  But are the numerous pros of these new LED's enough to make me jump?  Still thinking....
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2017, 10:46:58 pm »
These LED bulbs pros-

* Far less heat (my HID kit does seem to be offgassing from the base and damaging my reflector).
* Easier and faster install.
* Fewer electrical parts (a box yes, but not two like on HID).
* Possibly better cutoff and glare control.
* Instant on with no warmup.
* No mechanical parts (HID uses magnetism for high/low beam switching).
* No vibration or jiggle in the beam (a problem my HID kit has- it is inherent in the design of requiring the bulbs to be pulled in and out for high/low beam).
* No need for high voltage.  Possibly less EMI.  Certainly low inrush current.
* Cutoff rotation.
* The "filament" placement is likely to be more accurate over time.
* Lights are impervious to water/humidity/touch oils.
* Less load on the electrical system (more power for other things).

HID pros-
* More light.
* Probably better CRI (color rendering accuracy).
* More color choice.



Nicely summarised and probably why top end OEM fitments are now going down the LED rather than the HID route (that and it allows designers more flexibility with headlamp shape (as they arent restricted to a H* type replacement)
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2017, 10:48:44 pm »


I agree that projectors are the way to go- to the point where I actually put together an HID based projector retrofit into a C-14 housing: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0  And this is not a 'fits into the H4 housing hole' retrofit but a true open the housing, toss the reflectors and mount a pair of 'real' (FX 35, bi- xenon projectors) into a C-14 housing.


All your photos are missing :(
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2017, 09:29:30 am »
Yeah, and I am having a problem getting into my photobucket account to fix that....

Brian

All your photos are missing :(
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2017, 09:39:37 am »
Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens. And high output halogen lamps produce more light on both high and low beam.

As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern. And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.

HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased. But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.

Brian


<snip>

Assuming the aftermarkets are not overdriving the chips, the typical luminous flux at 6500K appears to be about 245 per chip.  The Philips bulbs use 6 chips =  1470, and the aftermarket uses 8 = 1960.   Those would be the most optimistic numbers I would believe without further information.   And is all that light actually available?  Not sure.  But I could believe these aftermarkets might be twice as bright as a typical halogen.  But as bright as HID?  I think not.

<snip>

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2017, 12:24:05 pm »
The scene


Dip/Lo


Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2017, 01:50:36 pm »
Excellent, thanks!

Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.

Brian

The scene


Dip/Lo


Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:02 pm »
Excellent, thanks!

Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.

Brian

Cheers

Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined  performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2017, 03:12:52 pm »
I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.

Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.

Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???

Brian

Cheers

Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined  performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2017, 03:16:03 pm »
I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.

Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.

Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???

Brian

Ok so my math is off tonight  :doh: :doh:

Wanders off to open another beer, cheers
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2017, 03:19:40 pm »
Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens.

My understanding is there are 6 (Philips) or 8 (non-Phillips) ZES chips per side.  In low beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are shielded, closest to the tip of the bulb, on both sides (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb).  In high beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are unshielded, closest to the base (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb).  Is this not correct?  If correct, my calculations should be valid and we are talking about a lot more than 1,000 lumens for each bulb, on low or high beam (at least on the non-Phillips bulb).

Quote
As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern.

That is assuming that the sloppy, spring-loaded, pop-in/out electromagnet positioning system is working perfectly and has zero slop.  Mine doesn't.  In fact, the light patterns even jiggle with road disturbance.  If I remove the HID bulbs and shake them, they move around some and will sometimes not even return to the same position.  My left bulb actually droops a few millimeters in the actuator, and that is bound to change the pattern.  LED bulbs are more like halogen bulbs- the "filaments" are at an exact, fixed position and never have to move.  This is what I was referring to in my comparison.

Quote
And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.

Agreed.  It is all about positioning, amount of light, and light distribution that results in the ultimate pattern projected on the road.  The distribution for filament and arc might be better than LED, since they are 360 degree sources instead of two 180 degree sources separated by several mm (or however thick that sucker is).  I didn't put that in my comparison, and probably should.  Not sure if it matters though, just speculating.

Quote
HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased.

And I do have that issue on my HID system now.  I covered it pretty well in another thread a while ago (showed photos, described, etc).  Some of that is unavoidable when you put a lot of light in a reflector not designed to handle it.  The stray light levels might be acceptable at X lumens, but not at X*2 or X*3 lumens (it would need tighter tolerances/better design).

Quote
But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.

Agreed.  But HID kits don't have fixed light sources, they move.  And anything that can move can cause malpositioning for a variety of reasons.  That is why I said it is possible that HID can produce more glare than LED (or high output halogen); but it will depend on the kit, the age, the design, etc.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2017, 03:25:24 pm »
Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours

One important thing you have to consider with LED life claims- the bulbs will get DIMMER over their life.  Most companies will use an industry standard like 70% of original illumination as the definition of when life is over.  So the bulbs often can last much, much longer than the claims.  But they are also not at peak performance when they are old but still within their normal life.

I am not sure if it is a straight line deterioration, though.  But if it was, then 50,000 hours at 2 hours a day is 68 years.  But at 34 years they will be only 85% of their original brightness.  If the claims were double inflated, then then could be a only 85% in 17 years.

The good news is that for most applications, those are such long periods that it won't matter much :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2017, 09:16:25 pm »
I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks.  I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon.  Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it.  At $75, it is worth a try.  If nothing else, it might be entertaining...

 :nuts:
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2017, 11:35:14 pm »
I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks.  I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon.  Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it.  At $75, it is worth a try.  If nothing else, it might be entertaining...

 :nuts:

you just couldn't resist  :)


Its Ok a year or three and there will be more OEM at around the 6k mark as more vehicles adopt LED as standard ,  just consider it early adoption 8)
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