Author Topic: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)  (Read 19259 times)

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2017, 05:04:27 pm »
As I remember, you did some re- wiring on the bike to fix something and I did not understand what you had done at that time. If you could go back and again try to explain what you did (not why, just what, exactly, you did) then we may be able to help with a lot more accuracy.

What you have written here simply leads me to believe something in the KiPass 'system' is fried such as the instrument cluster, the ignition switch housing electronics or similar. With no other information, I would suggest unplugging both of those things and again testing both fuses; if they do not open, reconnect one item at a time and again test the fuses until you find the object that is causing the fuse(s) to open. This is 'crowbar' diagnosis and not very accurate; it may NOT be the device you are unplugging / re- plugging in that is actually causing the problem but at least it will isolate the area in which to look.

Brian

I assumed something was broken before I actually looked.  When I did finally look I found that the battery had failed so I replaced it (It resembled an orb vs a rectangle).  While I had it out I checked the 30A main line fuse - it was good.  I replaced it anyway.  I reconnected the new battery.

The bike didn't respond to the ignition switch when pressed.  I was meaning to replace the battery in both of my key Fobs anyway so I did that.  Still no response to the key press.  I checked all of the fuses under the seat and found 2 were blown - the 15A for the ECU (fuse box #2, fuse #2) and the 10A for the SMART ECU (KIPASS) (fuse box #3, fuse #3).  I replaced both fuses and they both blew when I reconnected the battery.  I removed both ECU's and replaced the fuses - then reconnected the battery.  The 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blew and the 15A fuse for the ECU did not.  I then installed the ECU and blew its 15A fuse.

So, I have the 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blowing without the SMART ECU connected - and - I have the 15A ECU fuse blowing when I connect the ECU.  That's as far as I got today due to working outside and some liquid weather rolling in.  We need the rain so I have mixed emotions.  I'm going to spend some time looking into this electrical PITA.  If someone has any experience or suggestions I would appreciate the feedback.  Thx.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Freddy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: au
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2017, 05:15:16 pm »
What he said ^ but I wouldn't suspect the cluster - just everything else you've tampered with.  Back tracking is probably the only way to find the cause. 
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Tree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
  • 21 Year Submarine Veteran - GO NAVY!
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2017, 06:49:25 pm »
In a way this is new..  But I can give more background info.  It can't hurt.  Nothing but my pride anyhow. :)

I encountered the "ignition switch - stuck switch" problem a couple of years ago.  The one where the internal switch stuck down and didn't return when the key was released.  I thought that circuit was associated with the White/Brown wire pair that shared one of the two connectors for the Steering Lock Unit (SLU).  My "fix" consisted of bypassing the SLU where those 2 wires entered - assuming that they did actually connect through the sticky switch which is internal to the SLU.  I placed another switch in the circuit and joined the White/Brown wire pair through it.  The bike ran and functioned so I thought nothing more of it until the switch eventually shorted to ground (via the left windscreen rail) and started blowing the 30A main fuse in the charging circuit (which is housed in the starter relay bucket in the battery compartment).  I didn't discover the self-made short for awhile because I am a prideful idiot.  I must have shorted the charging circuit to ground a good number of times.  I don't have a true number of times that I replaced that fuse in my attempts to figure out what I did - hence the idiot comment.

After I got tired of replacing the fuse, and realizing that the switch that I installed was not the correct fix, I eventually restored the white/brown wire pair to the original configuration in the SLU circuit via the connector.  I removed the SLU and sanded off some of the plastic on the internal switch so it wouldn't stick.   I put it back together and it worked.  Yep, should of done that a long time ago.

Months later it broke down again.  The 30A fuse had blown again.  This time I left the SLU alone and looked at the other components in the charging circuit and eventually found a bad Voltage Regulator and replaced it last month.  Back on the road and running fine...  I put a good hurting on the battery through all of this - I shorted it to ground a lot.  It makes sense that it finally failed.  I stressed the hell out of that circuit and everything connected to it.

So the current indications are:
1. The 15A fuse for the ECU blows with the ECU installed.  It does not blow with the ECU removed.
2. The 10A fuse for the KIPASS ECU (SMART) blows with or with out the KIPASS ECU installed.

That is as far as I got.  I'll continue after the weather clears up.  Meanwhile I'm looking at the print and looking for inspiration.
If God should charge you what you owe,

You would always be in debt.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2017, 08:03:58 pm »
OK. That wiring pair powers up the Ign. Housing circuit and the white wire is connected directly to the output of the voltage regulator (rectifier).

I get the 15 amp fuse for ECU as fuse #2 in fusebox #2, and it appears to be powering up the ECU itself but also quite a few other circuits, mostly the coils of relays.
The closest thing I get to your description for the 10 amp fuse is: 'KIPASS signal relay fuse, 10A', Fusebox #3, fuse #1

OR: 'KIPASS fuse 10A', fusebox #3, fuse #3.

I have no fuses marked 'smart'. ??

The first KIPASS fuse, 10A, goes to the KIPASS relay, then to the KIPASS signal diode, which is some kind of non- defined 'secret' box, and then to the front turn signal lights.

The other fuse, KIPASS, 15A, powers up the ECU, the dash display, the steering lock unit, and the first fuse in Fusebox #2, marked 'Fan fuse, 15A', which are the cooling fans. Any chance one of them is jammed? Try to reach in there and see if each one turns freely.

After that, it will be a matter of pulling connectors and checking continuity and then current draw at each of those devices I listed. I do have the pin numbers w/in the connectors at least.

Brian

In a way this is new..  But I can give more background info.  It can't hurt.  Nothing but my pride anyhow. :)

I encountered the "ignition switch - stuck switch" problem a couple of years ago.  The one where the internal switch stuck down and didn't return when the key was released.  I thought that circuit was associated with the White/Brown wire pair that shared one of the two connectors for the Steering Lock Unit (SLU).  My "fix" consisted of bypassing the SLU where those 2 wires entered - assuming that they did actually connect through the sticky switch which is internal to the SLU.  I placed another switch in the circuit and joined the White/Brown wire pair through it.  The bike ran and functioned so I thought nothing more of it until the switch eventually shorted to ground (via the left windscreen rail) and started blowing the 30A main fuse in the charging circuit (which is housed in the starter relay bucket in the battery compartment).  I didn't discover the self-made short for awhile because I am a prideful idiot.  I must have shorted the charging circuit to ground a good number of times.  I don't have a true number of times that I replaced that fuse in my attempts to figure out what I did - hence the idiot comment.

After I got tired of replacing the fuse, and realizing that the switch that I installed was not the correct fix, I eventually restored the white/brown wire pair to the original configuration in the SLU circuit via the connector.  I removed the SLU and sanded off some of the plastic on the internal switch so it wouldn't stick.   I put it back together and it worked.  Yep, should of done that a long time ago.

Months later it broke down again.  The 30A fuse had blown again.  This time I left the SLU alone and looked at the other components in the charging circuit and eventually found a bad Voltage Regulator and replaced it last month.  Back on the road and running fine...  I put a good hurting on the battery through all of this - I shorted it to ground a lot.  It makes sense that it finally failed.  I stressed the hell out of that circuit and everything connected to it.

So the current indications are:
1. The 15A fuse for the ECU blows with the ECU installed.  It does not blow with the ECU removed.
2. The 10A fuse for the KIPASS ECU (SMART) blows with or with out the KIPASS ECU installed.

That is as far as I got.  I'll continue after the weather clears up.  Meanwhile I'm looking at the print and looking for inspiration.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1534
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2017, 10:18:13 pm »
....then to the KIPASS signal diode, which is some kind of non- defined 'secret' box...

Totally unrelated to the problem that TREE is having, but isn't that just a diode setup that allows the KIPASS flash (all four turn signals) at startup without the left and right turn signals being interconnected during regular signal operation?....not understanding the 'secret' box reference.  ???

Offline Tree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
  • 21 Year Submarine Veteran - GO NAVY!
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2017, 12:50:26 am »
My drawing reference is pages 16-14 & 16-15,  Electrical System Wiring Diagram (ABS Equipped Models).  The drawing is a PDF file that has http://mototh.com on the bottom/footer of the page.  I honestly can't recall where I got it from. (honest).  My bike is a 2008.

Fuse Issue #1:
Fuse box #3, fuse #3 (10A) is labelled SMART on top of the fuse box cover and the drawing refers to it as KIPASS fuse 10A.  Fuse #3 only goes to the KIPASS ECU at 2 different pins as far as the drawing that I have shows.  That fuse blows whether or not the KIPASS ECU is connected or not, so I am doubting the accuracy of the drawing as far as power flow is concerned.

Fuse Issue #2:
Fuse box #2, fuse #2 (15A) for the ECU blows when the ECU is connected.  It does not blow with the ECU disconnected.

That's as far as I got before it started to rain and I had to cover everything up.

Thanks for the replies.
If God should charge you what you owe,

You would always be in debt.

Offline fartymarty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1534
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 10:13:05 am »
Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:



ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 12:30:48 pm »
Yes, that is what flashes the four lights.

But I am a bit put off by the dotted box around the diodes and am reading something into that. ?? Maybe nothing too, I just do not know.

Brian

Totally unrelated to the problem that TREE is having, but isn't that just a diode setup that allows the KIPASS flash (all four turn signals) at startup without the left and right turn signals being interconnected during regular signal operation?....not understanding the 'secret' box reference.  ???
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 12:34:45 pm »
I must have an old schematic because mine looks nothing like that at all.

Thanks for the photo Marty, now I will hunt around and see if I can come up with a schematic that matches those fuse positions and labels.

Tree, ignore my previous posts they are apparently based on the wrong schematic, or the schematic and the actual fuse labeling on the bike are different. Either way, let me see if I can get Marty's photo and <any> schematic to agree before I say anything else.

Brian

Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:



ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Tree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
  • 21 Year Submarine Veteran - GO NAVY!
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 07:39:24 pm »
I'm still looking at the print too.  Not much to it.  I can't get to troubleshooting it tonight but I did manage to grab a can of contact cleaner.  Thanks for the clarification on the fuse box cover Marty - and mine is different from what you have.  The SMART fuse is in position 3 on my '08 like it says on the print.

Thanks for giving this a look Brian.  Much appreciated.

Hey, the rain stopped!
If God should charge you what you owe,

You would always be in debt.

Offline Tree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
  • 21 Year Submarine Veteran - GO NAVY!
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 06:27:19 pm »
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.
If God should charge you what you owe,

You would always be in debt.

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8180
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 08:24:05 pm »
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.

Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline VirginiaJim

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Country: england
  • I've forgotten more than I'll ever know...
    • Kawasaki 1400GTR
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 05:57:08 am »
Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
"LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  2016 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! 2008 C14 Moved on to a new home.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2017, 06:32:07 am »
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....



Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Tree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Country: us
  • 21 Year Submarine Veteran - GO NAVY!
Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2017, 01:21:26 pm »
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....



Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.
If God should charge you what you owe,

You would always be in debt.