Author Topic: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)  (Read 18271 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 02:49:52 pm »
Yeah, it is always fun to post / see that drawing, well at least it is for me- I really like the 'slow- blow' feature of the bolt.  ;D  And it is a valid testing method too; take out the fuse, replace it with one of those replacement items, remove the battery and instead use a DC, constant current welder (stick or TIG power supply, not MIG which is constant voltage, at least the short- arc MIG welders most people can get to), set the machine for 200 or more amps, and turn it on. Wait a bit and something will glow and melt- there is your culprit! If inside of something else, such as a partition wall of a house, it will take longer to find but just as easy: watch carefully exactly where the firefighters are paying the most attention to and sending the water and again, you got the problem!

But back to your situation, I have been chewing on an idea to limit the amount of current going through a circuit so that you can power the system up and keep it powered up while you disconnect different things. The crude but inexpensive and very easy way of doing that is to use a tungsten light bulb, something like an taillight or interior lamp from a car would do. Just put the two legs of the bulb where the fuse would be and the light will turn on and should stay on; then start pulling component blocks off the harness and when you get the right one, the lamp will go out. Simple, cheap and absolutely valid as a testing tool.

I really cannot think of anything 'slick' or clever or anything that will reduce the troubleshooting time and difficultly. You are just going to have to remove things until you find the source of the short, and then further chase it down to the exact cause, such as will be possible. For example, if a wire is shorted going from the ECU, it is going to have to be pinned out and tested, which will be tedious at best. If it appears to be the ECU itself, you really will simply not know for sure unless you swap it out for another and of course that is going to be expensive and a little risky 'cause if it is NOT the ECU and you swap it, you may fry the trial ECU also.

Sorry to bring this as my best idea but I cannot figure out a way around it. ??

Brian

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2017, 04:44:51 pm »
If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.


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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2017, 06:56:36 pm »
Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2017, 07:51:43 pm »
So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.

It is possible that there are things that go through the ECU bus, once it is connected, that could be the problem and not the ECU, itself.  But you are right that it doesn't look very good, I would probably jump to the same conclusion you did.  I don't have much experience troubleshooting vehicle electronics- it can be really complicated.  But I don't think a battery failure of any type [excluding an explosion] would cause ECU damage, unless the voltage went really high- and that is not typically how any battery is going to fail.  Low voltage typically will not damage most electronics.  Sending too much power through a sensor or data wire- that could do it, however.  And such things point back to the harness and the things connected to it that are also connected to the ECU.  And there are likely quite a few things connected.

Quote
(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.  Of course I can't speak for him...  there might be people who would or have tried to scam him claiming such things (not saying you would ever do such a thing).  Likely he would take such matters on a case-by-case basis, so don't assume the worst.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2017, 01:26:48 am »
Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?

Brian

Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline gPink

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2017, 04:03:44 am »
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?
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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2017, 05:33:15 am »
I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?
Kind of important, this part.
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).

If (and I'm not saying that's the case just yet) both of the ECUs need replacing (and perhaps associated dealer labor to set up FOBs and TPSM software?) on a 2008 model, it might be $marter to think about parting it out and look for a newer used model.

Best wishes to you Tree, hopefully your inspections will find something obvious to fix and all these speculations will be just mental exercises on all of our parts. Hang in there.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:42:34 am by fartymarty »

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 05:57:30 am »

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).



You know, that's a good idea if you're not sure of the status of the ECU (send it to Steve)(Let him know first of all).  He might be able to at least say it's ok or not.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 07:06:36 am »

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

Thanks Marty. Makes more sense that way.  ::)
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 07:19:02 am »
And how would someone know that by looking at it?
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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 07:51:25 am »

And how would someone know that by looking at it?

Well, he did look at it through the eyes of an ohm meter, but the question remains was it hooked up to the bike's circuitry or was it disconnected.....and whatever else Brian said  :-\ :)...

Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?


Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2017, 08:06:46 am »
Unless you have some sort of tester you can hook up to it like a KDS tool possibly, there's no way of knowing it's bad or not.  Course if there's a great big hole in it, that's pretty self apparent.
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2017, 09:46:15 am »
I chose to not quote every reply because that would clutter this reply.  Thanks for everyone's interest and participation in this thread.

The ECU's were removed from the bike prior to testing.  I didn't bother with reverse polarity tests because a short circuit across a power connection is a short circuit across a power connection - blown fuses provided the initial indicator of a problem.  I will see if my local shop has a tester to verify what I have concluded.

I did imply that I had also lost the $$$ I spent on the flash on the DFI ECU.  I only had it a few short months and I was very happy with it.

I could provide a total of the $$$ that I had recently spent on the bike to keep it going but I'll just list what I have recently done:

Valve adjustment.
New Tires, zero miles on them.
New Front Brakes, zero miles on them.
New Battery.
2 Voltage Regulators replaced.

I don't know if I have the stamina to replace the ECU's.  I certainly don't have the spare $$$.  I don't know what I'm going to do but I need to restore or replace the bike.  One of the two.  That's where I'm at.

I would be interested with speaking to anyone who has a source for used DFI and KIPASS ECU's.  Maybe someone who is parting out a Connie.  Mine is a 2008.
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2017, 06:32:52 pm »
I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2017, 09:30:51 pm »
If you swap ECU and / or KiPass ECU, the bike will need to be attached to KDS and 'set straight'.

If you replace the KiPass ECU, you can still use your RFID fobs, again once the ignition switch housing circuity is programmed to recognize them but you will require the activation number for the RF (full function, battery operated, fobs) fobs, which almost no one ever has with existing fobs. No way to retreive the number from the old KiPass ECU either; you either have it written down or not and with most people, it is 'not'. As 2008's came with two RF fobs, you will most likely want to replace at least one, which is somewhat expensive at around $200+ for the hardware plus programming.

Brian

I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com