Author Topic: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)  (Read 19181 times)

Offline Tree

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For those of you just tuning in I had experienced the dreaded ignition switch problem a little while ago (stuck microswitch).  My "fix" was not entirely elegant and the repair itself resulted in electrical problems that persisted.  I finally removed the Steering Lock Unit (SLU) and repaired the microswitch by shaving off some plastic.  All is well with the SLU now.

The toggle switch that I installed to 'bypass' the faulty SLU microswitch has been removed and the electrical has been restored to original/normal. 

The toggle switch created a short circuit in the Charging System because it was contacting the left rail for the windscreen.  The 30A fuse from the battery was blowing because of the short.  I went around and around trying to find/fix this problem that I had actually installed myself.  You can search for my other posts about it if you need a good laugh.

I have replaced the Voltage Regulator 2 times as a result.  There shouldn't be any more problems with the charging circuit because everything is back to stock now.  What concerns me is the effect that all of this may have had upon the Stator.  The regulator is a load for the stator and I basically destroyed 2 regulators as a result of my prior frankensteinian actions.  What did I do to the stator, if anything?  Did I weaken it to the point that it will fail next?  Should I test it or just replace it?

I would like to hear from anyone with experience or knowledge about testing, replacing the stator.  If the part can be obtained without buying an entire alternator or is an alternator replacement my only option?

Again, the Charging Circuit works fine now.  I'm just concerned that I may have stressed the stator to the point that it will fail prematurely.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:29:34 am by Tree »
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Offline gPink

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 05:00:57 am »
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.



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Offline Freddy

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 06:34:00 am »
Don't worry - be happy.  Stators function at max load for half their life due to AC earthed thru the Regulator/Rectifier.  That doesn't cause a problem for them.  Triumph 1050 stators are another matter - some folks carry a spare.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 09:28:12 am »
Last line first: the stator IS the alternator on the C-14. The only other part of the alternator are the permanent magnets that the stator turns inside of and they are not really anything that fails under any normal conditions.

As to the stator or coil winding itself, the only way to 'stress' it would be to overheat it and damage the insulation. This is the common failure mode but only on older motorcycles that had insufficiently large stators that were constantly overloaded (look up KZ 1300 for an excellent example). The C-14's coil, which is also the ZX 14's coil, has not proven to be problematic.

As far as whether you have damaged it or not, I believe it unlikely that you have. But beyond that, there is no test or even a visual examination that I know of that would be of any benefit in finding that out; you would have to actually unwind the coil to examine the lacquer insulation along the inside part of the coil and in doing that, you would have effectively destroyed the stator anyway. So the question left is whether or not you should replace it: no way to know, and frankly I do not understand what you did to the wiring on the bike (and did not way back when when you described what you had done at the time either) so cannot have any opinion on whether your mods. could have damaged that coil or not. My outright guess would be no but again, without having any understanding of the changes made, that really is only a guess.

They are fairly expensive to purchase as a replacement part but you <may> find one used from a damaged Concours or ZX engine that is being parted out. If you do locate a used one, the odds are very high that it is fine and will work basically forever and so may be worthwhile to change yours out just for piece of mind. ?? So you may want to take a look around at used parts sources and Ebay to see if any are available. You can test one before installing it by checking the resistance of the entire coil- it should be very high but not infinite, and the service manual should give an acceptable range you will find on a good coil.

Brian

For those of you just tuning in I had experienced the dreaded ignition switch problem a little while ago (stuck microswitch).  My "fix" was not entirely elegant and the repair itself resulted in electrical problems that persisted.  I finally removed the Steering Lock Unit (SLU) and repaired the microswitch by shaving off some plastic.  All is well with the SLU now.

The toggle switch that I installed to 'bypass' the faulty SLU microswitch has been removed and the electrical has been restored to original/normal. 

The toggle switch created a short circuit in the Charging System because it was contacting the left rail for the windscreen.  The 30A fuse from the battery was blowing because of the short.  I went around and around trying to find/fix this problem that I had actually installed myself.  You can search for my other posts about it if you need a good laugh.

I have replaced the Voltage Regulator 2 times as a result.  There shouldn't be any more problems with the charging circuit because everything is back to stock now.  What concerns me is the effect that all of this may have had upon the Stator.  The regulator is a load for the stator and I basically destroyed 2 regulators as a result of my prior frankensteinian actions.  What did I do to the stator, if anything?  Did I weaken it to the point that it will fail next?  Should I test it or just replace it?

I would like to hear from anyone with experience or knowledge about testing, replacing the stator.  If the part can be obtained without buying an entire alternator or is an alternator replacement my only option?

Again, the Charging Circuit works fine now.  I'm just concerned that I may have stressed the stator to the point that it will fail prematurely.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 02:16:35 pm »
They aren't that expensive on ebay...
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 05:31:54 pm »
This is a Triumph 1050 stator. The burnt coil is easily seen - after it's failed.  Often, tho, the burnt coil is not so bad.  A visual inspection may not reveal anything if it's still charging.  My son was just one owner who used to carry a spare when touring.




« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 06:22:08 am by Freddy »
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Offline zrx mitch

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 09:24:55 am »
Tree,

There should be a stator output test described in the Service Manual, I'm away from home so I can't look up the specs. It should describe testing voltage across the wires coming out of the stator and before they get to the regulator/rectifier, and spec a voltage across any combination of 2 of the 3 wires at a specified elevated rpm. All 3 possible combinations should measure approximately the same voltage and the spec may be 60, 70, or 80 volts.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 09:32:04 am »
Yes, that is the problem, the coils change with heat and that could be when it is on the way to failure or just changing color because they get a little warm. Absolutely no way to tell is one is any more likely to fail.

What I go by is the history of the specific alternator on the specific engine / bike, some are well known for cooking alternators and others are not. The C-14 is not known for frying coils, so I would expect any C-14 or ZX stator that was working to keep doing so basically forever.

The entire series of KZ 1300's were notorious for burning up stator coils. The coil was too small and so overloaded all the time and they simply burned up. Kawasaki sort of addressed the problem by adding an entire separate alternator on the other side of the crankcase along with another regulator.... it was kind of a Frankenbike situation but it did work, mostly. Actually I have one of the uber- rare left alternator ass'ys, all the way to the magnets and crankcase cover that holds them. Had to turn a 10mm left- handed bolt to mount the magnet ass'y to the crankshaft; the crankshafts are drilled and tapped from the factory but the bolts are made of pure unobtanium, as are the left- side crankcase covers that set up those engines for dual alternators. If the Truimph suffers from a similar situation, the only solution is to keep a coil on- hand and set up a replacement schedule to hopefully catch each coil before it shorts and quits working outright. This is what some FJR owners do; those coils are known to cook if the electrical system is heavily loaded by the owner, which is a common situation on sport- tourers and tourers due to additional lighting, and heated clothing.

Brian

This is a Triumph 1050 stator. The burnt coil is easily seen - after it's failed.  Often, tho, the burnt coil is not so bad.  A visual inspection may not reveal anything if it's still charging.  My son was just one owner who used to carry a spare when touring.



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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 06:20:34 pm »
I knew you guys wouldn't let me down.  I appreciate all of the input.  I guess I'm a little gun shy wondering "What next?".  I'm just thankful that my bike is running again.
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 06:22:14 pm »
BTW, I wasn't ignoring the wit and I appreciated it.  I was wondering if someone was going to comment on the word play.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.



Sorry, I really have know idea but I couldn't resist using that line.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 10:48:46 am »
No other ex Kawasaki GPZ500 (Ninja 500 that side of the pond) owners here who had the magnets fall out due to the glue failing then  ;)


Last line first: the stator IS the alternator on the C-14. The only other part of the alternator are the permanent magnets that the stator turns inside of and they are not really anything that fails under any normal conditions.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 12:01:43 pm »
Beats me. But generally permanent magnet alternators just do not suffer from that so I did not consider it. Even if that does happen once in a blue moon, or there were a string of them on a particular model and make of motorcycle, I would consider that an assembly or design failure rather than an actual alternator failure. Hey, permanent magnets can also be demagnetized (kinda' takes the 'permanent' out of permanent magnet, doesn't it?) by heat, mechanical shock and very strong external magnetic fields but again, it is generally not a problem in the real world.

So when a P.M. alternator fails, I would always suspect the coil rather than the magnets. And in this thread, the O.P. was concerned about having overloaded the alternator and the only part it is possible to damage in that context is the coil, not the magnets.

Brian

No other ex Kawasaki GPZ500 (Ninja 500 that side of the pond) owners here who had the magnets fall out due to the glue failing then  ;)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 12:33:41 pm »
It was a known problem on the pre 94 Gen 1 bikes, I think there may even have been a factory recall for it

Beats me. But generally permanent magnet alternators just do not suffer from that so I did not consider it. Even if that does happen once in a blue moon, or there were a string of them on a particular model and make of motorcycle, I would consider that an assembly or design failure rather than an actual alternator failure. Hey, permanent magnets can also be demagnetized (kinda' takes the 'permanent' out of permanent magnet, doesn't it?) by heat, mechanical shock and very strong external magnetic fields but again, it is generally not a problem in the real world.

So when a P.M. alternator fails, I would always suspect the coil rather than the magnets. And in this thread, the O.P. was concerned about having overloaded the alternator and the only part it is possible to damage in that context is the coil, not the magnets.

Brian
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 05:30:14 pm »
I can't say for sure if the new regulator (VR) has just failed (or what) but I got stranded on the way to work the other day, again.  I had just installed a new VR and was just as happy as can be.  I just recieved another OEM, made in Japan, much more expensive VR ($214).  I am hesitant to install it and call it good because I didn't expect a new one to fail so soon.  It only cost $60 so maybe I "got what I paid for".  Who knows?

I haven't had the time to look into it all week so I will see what's going on this weekend.  In addition to verifying a bad VR I will check the voltage output of the Stator.  It is suppose to put out 50-ish VAC to the VR on 3 phases.  I don't have the gear to check the insulation resistance but I sure would like to know what condition it's in also.  If the stator voltages are OK I'll just slap in the new VR and hope for the best.  If I have the same issue after this I'll replace the stator and VR (again) next.  There's nothing else in the charging circuit.

I'm doing the brake pads and tires too.  I just got over 12,000 miles from a set of Angel GT-A's.
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2017, 04:42:42 pm »
I assumed something was broken before I actually looked.  When I did finally look I found that the battery had failed so I replaced it (It resembled an orb vs a rectangle).  While I had it out I checked the 30A main line fuse - it was good.  I replaced it anyway.  I reconnected the new battery.

The bike didn't respond to the ignition switch when pressed.  I was meaning to replace the battery in both of my key Fobs anyway so I did that.  Still no response to the key press.  I checked all of the fuses under the seat and found 2 were blown - the 15A for the ECU (fuse box #2, fuse #2) and the 10A for the SMART ECU (KIPASS) (fuse box #3, fuse #3).  I replaced both fuses and they both blew when I reconnected the battery.  I removed both ECU's and replaced the fuses - then reconnected the battery.  The 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blew and the 15A fuse for the ECU did not.  I then installed the ECU and blew its 15A fuse.

So, I have the 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blowing without the SMART ECU connected - and - I have the 15A ECU fuse blowing when I connect the ECU.  That's as far as I got today due to working outside and some liquid weather rolling in.  We need the rain so I have mixed emotions.  I'm going to spend some time looking into this electrical PITA.  If someone has any experience or suggestions I would appreciate the feedback.  Thx.
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