Author Topic: The Future of th C14  (Read 15199 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2017, 12:52:26 pm »
Absolutely agree with the fast- turning engine in the K1300GT; quite a 'singer' on the highway. I found the BMW has a bit less buzz in the handlebars and a bit more in the footpegs- kind of the same amount as a C-14 but placed a little differently.

My own experience is based on riding someone else's bike a few times, mixed riding, and really liked the bike. Also exactly as you say, it felt lighter and more nimble than a C-14, not to imply it handled better, just that it felt less heavy and resistant to turn-in, and low speed handling. I only rode alone and while the peg / bars / windshield placement was not fantastic, I think I could have made it acceptable for longer distance use. Two- up may have been a deal- killer too.

I did find the performance of the K1300GT to be truly impressive, especially from a standing- start. At least as much power as a C-14, less weight and especially, the low gearing all combined to make it very snappy and responsive IMO. As I said, it was not my bike and so I did not beat on it of course but just using 'all' of the throttle and most of the tachometer made the bike very impressive for a sport tourer and showed the front wheel to be a little light.  ;)

Just my personal opinion but the 1600 does not really float my boat; I think if I went that far, I might just go the rest of the way and buy a GoldWing.

Tough to predict how things will be in a few years but right this moment, I would buy another C-14 and mod. it as needed to make it what I want. Nothing else has been able to fill that slot, for me, as well yet. If the C-14 is not available in a couple of years when I expect to be in the market, or if I am even older than I am now (read: reaching or approaching pathetic), a ZX 14 would be the next- best workable bike for me I think.

Great to have these first- world problems though, is it not?  ;) ;D

Brian

The K1300 was a good bike, but BMW made the right move going to a new platform with the K16GT. I liked my K13GT overall, but the engine was a bit buzzy compared to my C14, and it was geared too short for interstate work in my opinion. I can't think of anything that my K13 objectively did better than my C14, but I do think that my C14 is superior to the K13GT overall especially in the category of engine/trans, and of course value. The K16 moved the needle in the sport touring segment in a way the K13 could not. More refined, more unique, more features better 2 up bike. The only downside compared to the K13GT is low speed handling, added size and weight. The latter two really are not noticed at all once the K16GT is above 20-30 mph.           

About the only thing I preferred about my K13 vs my K16 was the smaller size. A 7/8 scale K16 would really punch the ticket for me. Otherwise, the K16GT just simply does everything better than the K13GT based on my experience.   

What makes it easier for BMW is that they pretty much own the sport touring space, and occupy the higher end of the price point in the segment. Lots of K13's got traded in when the K16GT came out....including mine.

My only digs on my K16GT are the size, weight and cost. Just can't justify $25K for a motorcycle as I size up college tuition and retirement lol!   
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Offline O.C.

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2017, 03:31:41 am »
I purchased a new K1300 GT EE in February 2011, it replaced a C14 that I had. The K1300 had a great engine, was very comfy and being the EE (Exclusive Edition model) was  extremely well equipped, it preceded the introduction of the K16 and was a 'run out model', however it came complete with a notchy gear change, some other issues which I cannot/prefer not to recall and worst of all it cut out completely whilst I was making a right turn whilst exiting a biker meeting, this was both embarrassing and costly for me.

The supplying dealer refused to acknowledge any fault of the bike and said That BMW UK had never heard of this issue before (I had not accidentally hit the kill switch BTW).

It wasn't long after having the repairs completed at my expense, that BMW UK accepted that others had experienced a similar problem and  repaired faulty kill switches.

So much for BMW legendary reliability and customer care.......pah........never again will I darken their doorstep     :(   
CARPE DIEM

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2017, 05:55:49 am »
Yeah they have had (or are having?) their problems certainly. And some of them were (are?) disastrous, such as that cute final drive flame- out failure that BMW balked at covering, addressing in any way or even 'fessing up about. But I was really just discussing the bike as it pertains to actually riding and behavior..... at least when it behaves itself. :-)

For those reasons and other, I am pretty much confined to Japanese bikes, and always have been. At this time, I think the only other brand (non- Japanese) I would even consider might be a KTM but that is not very likely either.

The person who owned the BMW that I rode had a bunch of BMW's and also more than a couple of incidents with their 'legendary reliability'. One time, he was riding a brand new K1200GT home when it just died..... ON THE HIGHWAY (!!) in Boston. He left it on the side of the road, made other arrangements to go home rather than back to the dealer, and then called them up an told them where they could find 'their' bike, assuming it was still there and they even wanted it back.  :rotflmao:  That actually worked out fine but then again, he bought a lot of bikes from them and so was well outside the range of the dealer's usual customer.

Brian

Brian

I purchased a new K1300 GT EE in February 2011, it replaced a C14 that I had. The K1300 had a great engine, was very comfy and being the EE (Exclusive Edition model) was  extremely well equipped, it preceded the introduction of the K16 and was a 'run out model', however it came complete with a notchy gear change, some other issues which I cannot/prefer not to recall and worst of all it cut out completely whilst I was making a right turn whilst exiting a biker meeting, this was both embarrassing and costly for me.

The supplying dealer refused to acknowledge any fault of the bike and said That BMW UK had never heard of this issue before (I had not accidentally hit the kill switch BTW).

It wasn't long after having the repairs completed at my expense, that BMW UK accepted that others had experienced a similar problem and  repaired faulty kill switches.

So much for BMW legendary reliability and customer care.......pah........never again will I darken their doorstep     :(   

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2017, 09:57:11 am »
Throttle-by-wire is the wave of the future in modern vehicles these days and I am amazed that Kawasaki has not invested the R&D to convert the C14 and other models with this technology. Full command of the throttle by virtue of an ECU driven servo makes it much easier to comply with EPA and Euro emission standards as well as refining the entire rideability of the motorcycle. As mentioned, cruise control is merely a few lines of code + a $5.00 switch away. BMW has converted almost exclusively to TBW as well as including cruise on almost every model as well. Yamaha has seen the light as of the 2013 FJR and Tenere and the results speak for themselves.

Both Honda (ST1300) and Kawasaki would reap great benefits by converting to TBW, it would certainly get everyone's attention. Here is a schematic of the how the cruise control works on my 2014 A model:



I don't know about Honda though. They seem to be in orbit around some planet that they (or anyone else for that matter) have not identified yet...

Dan

Offline maxtog

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2017, 03:11:40 pm »
Throttle-by-wire is the wave of the future in modern vehicles these days and I am amazed that Kawasaki has not invested the R&D to convert the C14 and other models with this technology.

The newly designed Kawasakis DO have throttle by wire.  But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc.

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Full command of the throttle by virtue of an ECU driven servo makes it much easier to comply with EPA and Euro emission standards

Nope.  Not on the C14 it doesn't.  The computer already has almost full control over CLOSING the throttle, which is all that is needed for any emissions/noise/MPG restrictions.

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as well as refining the entire rideability of the motorcycle.

Again, not really- almost all refinements are closing the throttle more, not opening it.

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As mentioned, cruise control is merely a few lines of code + a $5.00 switch away.

Yep, that is just trivial at that point

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BMW has converted almost exclusively to TBW as well as including cruise on almost every model as well. Yamaha has seen the light as of the 2013 FJR and Tenere and the results speak for themselves.

They typically release drive-by-wire only when redesigned models come out- usually major redesigns (like what happened with the FJR).

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Both Honda (ST1300) and Kawasaki would reap great benefits by converting to TBW, it would certainly get everyone's attention.

They already are.  With newly redesigned models, not just new model years.  At least on the C14 they would gain absolutely nothing except cruise and at a horrible expense.  With the sales numbers dwindling, they have likely decided to not even have a new Concours.... ever.  What you see with the 2018 is just a north-american-only extension of production.  They are just squeezing the last few drops out of the orange.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:35:03 pm by maxtog »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2017, 04:11:02 pm »
With all due respect, that is not quite correct Max; while the ECU does have control over the secondary butterflies on the C-14, it is not even close to complete control because the secondary butterflies are far smaller than the throttle body bores, unlike the primary throttle plates. To put it simply, the ECU just cannot 'choke' the air down on a C-14 nearly enough to have complete control. At a WAG, I would say something like 1/5 to 1/4 of the throttle's range is totally up to the user even with the secondaries fully closes.

There is also a huge difference in 'fly by wire' systems; some are nothing but an encoder (the throttle twist grip) placing the throttle plates (the 'throttle') in a matching position with no intervention of the ECU at all. Other systems may well use the ECU to determine the final placement of the throttle plates. I <believe> the Yamaha systems are a simple electronic replacement for a direct mechanical link but am not positive. Letting the ECU have final, ultimate control over throttle placement is both risky and will require a LOT of conditions and restrictions before it would even be allowed by the DOT. Just like KiPass: it can prevent the bike from starting but it is simply not able to cause the bike to stop running under any circumstances and this is an excellent design restriction IMO; I would never be in favor of any ECU being in control of the throttle on anything I was driving or riding.

Then again, there is Scarebus, where the computer makes all the final decisions of the flight envelope..... such as "landing" the plane because the gear is down and the airspeed is lower than a specified amount..... the pilot tried to open the throttles but the plane "helped" him and prevented that, and so the plane 'landed' in the woods beyond the runway. I do not know how one says 'Not good' in French.  ::) >:(

Brian


<snip>

Nope.  Not on the C14 it doesn't.  The computer already has full control over CLOSING the throttle, which is all that is needed for any emissions/noise/MPG restrictions.

<snip>

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Offline maxtog

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2017, 04:35:32 pm »
With all due respect, that is not quite correct Max; while the ECU does have control over the secondary butterflies on the C-14, it is not even close to complete control because the secondary butterflies are far smaller than the throttle body bores, unlike the primary throttle plates. To put it simply, the ECU just cannot 'choke' the air down on a C-14 nearly enough to have complete control.

OK, I was exaggerating with using the word "complete" (so I revised previous post) but it is certainly way, way, way more than enough control for any possible emissions, noise, or fuel economy needs (then, now, or in the future).
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2017, 05:41:44 pm »
If you look at my schematic you will see that the servo is controlled by the ECU. The ECU factors in inputs from a variety of sources as shown, including the Accelerator Postion Sensor (item 11). My 2006 Toyota Tundra is the same, total ECU controlled throttle servo motor.

Maxtog, not sure what you mean by this:

"But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc."

This is exactly what Yamaha did for the Gen III FJR, completely re-engineered the EFI and ECU. All for the better I might add, as perfect a throttle control as I've ever experienced on a motorcycle and we get two drive modes to boot (Sport and Touring). This system has proven to be almost completely trouble-free as well, almost no one has had any driveability or reliability problems with this system.

And here is an article in Motorcyclist that describes the advantages of throttle-by-wire (they call it Ride-By-Wire), including emissions compliance as well as other factors:

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ride-by-wire-technology-is-it-safe-mc-garage-motorcyclist-magazine

As I indicated, this technology is the wave of the future and Kawasaki needs to invest in the R&D to incorporate TBW on the C14 or continue to lose market share to those that do.

Dan

Offline kzz1king

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2017, 06:44:18 pm »
According to consumer reports.

The reliability ratings are based on failure rates for 4-year-old bikes:
Yamaha/Star (11 percent failure rate)
Suzuki and Honda (12 percent)
Kawasaki (15 percent)
Victory (17 percent)
Harley-Davidson (26 percent)
Triumph (29 percent)
Ducati (33 percent)
BMW (40 percent)
\
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline Poseidon

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2017, 06:51:07 pm »
RBW is nothing more than idiot proofing a bike. Manufacturers are squeezing as much power as they can (within the limits of the EPA, Euro-4, etc) out of these motors. They are making 200hp plus bikes and selling them to the general public for higher MSRPs than the lower HP models. Then they add traction control, RBW, rider modes, etc, adding several thousand more to the MSRP, with these electronics that cut power and throttle response. That seems a little counter productive to me... All of this in an effort to put people with less than optimal riding skills on bikes with more power than these riders can handle, with computers that will keep them from ever experiencing the potential power of the bike they spent all that money on, due to the potential power it has... where do I sign up?!?!

What ever happened to learning how to ride, buying bikes that match your skill set, getting a new bike once your skills improve, having respect for the capabilities of the bike you bought, and finally... having some throttle control so a computer doesn't have to do it for you?  The article in the link that was posted above stated one of the benefits of RBW was giving people the ability to buy a bike that is beyond their skill set, start in the lower performance settings and advance as their skill set improves. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that idea? We are not talking about bike like the Rebel 250 in the lowest performance mode here. We are talking about super bikes, H2's, zx14's, Hayabusa's, etc as starter bikes because new riders have the ability to ride them in a low performance setting due the the benefits of RBW.

I am not totally against technology. I grew up right in the middle of carbs going out and EFI coming in and I saw the potential of that almost immediately. This new tech they are putting into cars and now bikes is just a way to idiot proof everything for the distracted generation! It is also about manufacturers trying to make bikes that anyone can ride, but based on performance capabilities, few should, and selling them at a higher price due to the performance and electronics packages that counter act that performance.

I'm just glad I got my Concours when I did if this is the way things are headed!!!
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Offline maxtog

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2017, 07:21:47 pm »
Maxtog, not sure what you mean by this:

"But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc."

This is exactly what Yamaha did for the Gen III FJR, completely re-engineered the EFI and ECU.

It was in response to the implied question as to why they didn't change the Concours to drive-by-wire or why they hadn't already.  I responded that they would not invest that kind of money into the Concours unless they were doing a major redesign [anyway] like they did on the Yamaha.  They never did a redesign of the C14 (except for very early on with the gen2, which was a considerable change, but not "major").

Quote
As I indicated, this technology is the wave of the future and Kawasaki needs to invest in the R&D to incorporate TBW on the C14 or continue to lose market share to those that do.

Lack of drive-by-wire doesn't hurt the C14.  It wouldn't really gain anything it doesn't already have, so it shouldn't hurt sales not having it nor gain sales if it did have it.  But adding cruise control would certainly be important, and not having it might have cost some sales.  How many, I don't know.  In any case that doesn't require drive-by-wire, it could have been added without a big overhaul.  Would have been a nice "gen3" feature... alas, that is likely to never materialize now :(

Anyway, let's address every point in the article:

* Taming power:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control
* Ride modes:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control (FEAM, Gen2)
* Emissions compliance: C14 already does this by computer throttle control (FEAM, Gen2)
* Improved traction control:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control (Gen2)
* Meeting license limitations: C14 COULD do this with existing system if they wanted to, but no reason
* Cruise:  Not possible with the C14, since it can not increase throttle, only lower it.
* They didn't even mention fuel economy, which IS specifically addressed and marketed on the C14 Gen2.

Kawasaki was already well in the advanced tech range with the C14 for when it was designed (and then improved with Gen2). 
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Offline maxtog

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2017, 07:28:17 pm »
All of this in an effort to put people with less than optimal riding skills on bikes with more power than these riders can handle, with computers that will keep them from ever experiencing the potential power of the bike they spent all that money on, due to the potential power it has... where do I sign up?!?!

LOL!

Quote
What ever happened to learning how to ride, buying bikes that match your skill set, getting a new bike once your skills improve, having respect for the capabilities of the bike you bought, and finally... having some throttle control so a computer doesn't have to do it for you?

I have wondered that, myself.  It seems like too many people have more dollars than sense.

Quote
The article in the link that was posted above stated one of the benefits of RBW was giving people the ability to buy a bike that is beyond their skill set, start in the lower performance settings and advance as their skill set improves. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that idea?

I could see how it would be useful for someone that was just learning to get comfortable on the bike, but not as a replacement for starting on a 250 (which is not only much less powerful, but much smaller/lighter too).  I mean, that is how I started.  Then went to a 1100 carbed, then the 1400 EFI.  However, I will point out again, the C14 could have easily already done that without the need for drive-by-wire.  With zero added cost, Kawasaki COULD have made a "mode" and used the secondary throttle control to complete neuter the bike.  This was partially already done on the gen2 with the "FEAM" (Fuel Economy Assist Mode), although it is not advertised as something that could be used for lowering the power.  Just press and hold the computer select button on the left bar for more than a few seconds- bam.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2017, 07:37:24 pm »
The dealer showed me the eco mode when I bought it. He pushed and held the "flash to pass" button and pointed to the "Eco" on the screen. I reached up, turned it right back off and told him "yeah... I won't be needing that function".
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Offline maxtog

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2017, 07:48:54 pm »
The dealer showed me the eco mode when I bought it. He pushed and held the "flash to pass" button and pointed to the "Eco" on the screen. I reached up, turned it right back off and told him "yeah... I won't be needing that function".

Technically, there is no "ECO Mode".  There is a FEAM (Fuel Economy Assistance Mode) and an ECO indicator for telling you when you are driving economically (which has nothing to do with FEAM).  And there is another, different "ECO" indicator to let you know when FEAM is activated (which should have been worded differently).  And it is not accessed by the flash-to-pass button- you have to use the computer select button, which is only on the Gen2.  The Gen1 has only a single map/mode and has no computer select button.

I don't find FEAM that useful, myself.  Although when I am scared I might not have the range I need when I am running low on fuel, I will switch into it.  Many owners do find it useful.  It is actually nothing but another map (more than a single map, actually it is a set of tables, but we just call it that).... and it is a map that can (and sometimes is) replaced when you reflash the bike.  If one wanted a "slow" mode, "hyper" mode, "cushy" mode, "mountain riding" mode, or pretty much any other mode, a tuner can put it in that slot.  Usually when you reflash a bike, the FEAM map is left stock (as a comparison) or replaced with the stock, non-FEAM map.  But there is no reason any other map can't be put there.  Steve, for example, has developed several different maps with different personalities (although he probably won't develop a "slow" mode :) )

Oh, if you haven't reflashed your C14 yet, you won't believe the difference...  (but it is great to ride it stock for a while and get familiar with it, you will appreciate it all the more).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Poseidon

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Re: The Future of th C14
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2017, 08:05:01 pm »
I bought it last Wednesday, then got sick on Friday and spent all weekend laying around with a fever and cold symptoms. (Worst cold I've had in years) back at work this week. Still not over it.

I was only able to get just shy of 250 miles in on it so far. Normally, I would have the break in miles done the first weekend and had the oil changed by now. I haven't even opened her up yet. I'm sure I'll be looking into a flash and a few other items when the time comes. Only mods I've done so far are grip puppies and the warning sticker removal mod. Hahaha!
2017 Concours 14
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