Author Topic: Fuel injection retrofit  (Read 15480 times)

Offline gpineau

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Fuel injection retrofit
« on: February 14, 2018, 09:24:46 am »
I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors.  Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance.  And occasionally here  in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets.The concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs.    One of my  least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.

So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits?  $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.

Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00   What is yours?
1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 10:01:30 am »
Just keep putting a cap full of two stroke oil in  your gas tank anytime you fill the bike up. No more issues unless you let the gas sit in the bike for a long time.You would need fuel stabilizer or leave aviation fuel  in it so the fuel wont go bad on you.
 (fuel  injection cannot fix old gas problems)
Also make sure you install Overflow Tubes on those Concourse carbs. Very important.
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 10:10:41 am »
I have 4 bikes, I cant remember to ride them all once a week. Its cold here.  And I do use fuel stabilizers. and I have found a source of ethanol free gas two miles from my house. Still my magnas have trouble starting if I let them sit for a week. 

But Actually the point of my post was to get opinions on fuel injection retrofit systems and what others feelings about the price points.  I think if enough people were wanting the same thing the price points would come down as soon as there was a larg enough market.
1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 10:34:54 am »
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I do not think four injector fuel injection can be done for anywhere near $300. Even if you were to grab a used F.I. system from a scrapped bike, it is doubtful the control algorithms would be 'close enough' to correct to work right, and even that would cost more than $300.

But is certainly is an interesting project if you do pursue it. Just as an example, this is a source of both the hardware and software, as well as all the information you need to set up a system should you decide to give it a try:   http://megasquirt.info/

Brian

I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors.  Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance.  And occasionally here  in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets.The concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs.    One of my  least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.

So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits?  $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.

Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00   What is yours?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 03:45:39 pm »
Thanks Jim.

If I do decide to pursue my own design I will try to make it as affordable as possible. I have 5 bikes on my property that could use it.

I think it would be a very interesting and learning project

1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 03:56:29 pm »
Not sure who you are addressing here (no Jim in this thread as far as I know) but it is nothing short of fascinating.

I replaced the six carburetors on a KZ1300 with fuel injection; initially it was a stock system that Kawasaki fitted these bikes with but only in Europe. But as parts are no longer available, I went over to a Megasquirt controller and set it up. Overall, it worked well but I was using throttle bodies and fuel injectors made for that engine, which made it somewhat easier but also harder in some ways; I had no idea of the capacity of the fuel injectors and so had to back the size out of the data I gathered while tuning the system. Normally, one starts with injectors of a known size and calibrates the system to accommodate them; I had to go the other way and set a PWM width to a reasonable amount for a given RPM, then run the engine at that speed and adjust the initial parameters of the look- up tables until the mixture fell into the right place. Knowing how large the cylinder was, the RPM, the throttle opening and the injector 'ON' time and the injector size can be reverse calculated.

As I said, a fascinating thing to do but also quite involved and expensive, even if T.B.'s and fuel injectors are available that bolt on; it would be even more difficult if one had to fabricate adapters for throttle bodies, adapt throttle linkage, etc., to a bike that was never available with F.I. in the first place.

Best of luck if you do try this.

Brian

Thanks Jim.

If I do decide to pursue my own design I will try to make it as affordable as possible. I have 5 bikes on my property that could use it.

I think it would be a very interesting and learning project
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 05:40:32 pm »
Well I was talking to you BDF but I couldn't think of a lot of  first names to go with that acronym so I decided to call you Jim instead. If you prefer BDF then ok.

You seem to have a grasp of the techy side of implementing what I want. You understand pulse width and fuel/air mixture ratio control.  So I am glad that you have responded. I took a look at the megasquirt system and it seems to be just what I want to build but .. $250  for just the control CPU it a bit much considering all the sensors, injectors and other addons you need to make a complete system... It's not a turn key solution that is going to be as cheap as I want.

The megasquirt CPU kit might be a great head start to help me with my own design.  And maybe it is worth spending a few hundred more to develop the first article but I need 4 more at about $300 each. 

At any rate I need to do a lot more study before I embark on my own design if at all.
1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 05:50:21 pm »
gpineau, Rev Rider (other Forum) has developed a FI system for the C-10.
I can't begin to tell you all he did to make it work, but he did, and it runs like a champ...
I can tell you that your $300 will probably become $900+ before your done.

Ride safe, Ted




Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 07:21:47 pm »
Yep, you can call  me BDF or Jim as you like. And yep, you should study the available information to better understand what is required and the many different ways you may be able to get it to work.

Again, best of luck going forward.

Brian

Well I was talking to you BDF but I couldn't think of a lot of  first names to go with that acronym so I decided to call you Jim instead. If you prefer BDF then ok.

You seem to have a grasp of the techy side of implementing what I want. You understand pulse width and fuel/air mixture ratio control.  So I am glad that you have responded. I took a look at the megasquirt system and it seems to be just what I want to build but .. $250  for just the control CPU it a bit much considering all the sensors, injectors and other addons you need to make a complete system... It's not a turn key solution that is going to be as cheap as I want.

The megasquirt CPU kit might be a great head start to help me with my own design.  And maybe it is worth spending a few hundred more to develop the first article but I need 4 more at about $300 each. 

At any rate I need to do a lot more study before I embark on my own design if at all.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 09:03:51 pm »
connie_rider, I did look up some of his posts.  "They" based their retrofit on the megasquirt design. I have looked at the megasquirt solution before and that is one of the expensive ones that i could only afford one of. 

It will cost over a thousand by the time i'm  finished. I am still wanting something <=$300. So I upgrade all my bikes. If someone had a solution that cheap they could sell a zillion of them.

1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 12:03:15 pm »
Did some back of envelope sketches and came up wit a parts list of what I think will be needed (other that some hard work)

MAP pressure sensor   ebay hhr   $16.00
Throttle position sensor   ebay    $20.00
Throttle body      $15.00
Fuel Injector x 4   Ebay HHR   $39.00
Coolant temp sensor   Amazon   $10.00
air temp sensor   Ebay HHR   $10.00
Oxygen sensor   Ebay HHR   $17.00
Fuel pump   ebay   $40.00
ECU   home brew   $45.00
Output logic   digikey   $10.00
output drivers   digikey   $10.00
Harnesses wireing Fuses   ebay   $25.00
      
Manifold   Fabricate    $50.00
      
Total $307.00  to start with. Misc probably another $100.00
hmmm. do I really want to do this?
1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures

Offline gPink

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2018, 01:13:54 pm »
 :popcorn:
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 01:17:35 pm »
I always thought the giveaway was signing all your posts "Brian" Jim ;)

Yep, you can call  me BDF or Jim as you like. And yep, you should study the available information to better understand what is required and the many different ways you may be able to get it to work.

Again, best of luck going forward.

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 01:24:19 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzg

 :rotflmao:

A. Nonymous

I always thought the giveaway was signing all your posts "Brian" Jim ;)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 05:19:31 pm »
Thanks for the advice and for taking me serious.
I have 5 bikes here at my house and it is near impossible to keep them all running. I put stabil in all the fuel tanks and I start them all every few days.
At the moment my Honda shadow starts, both of my Concours will start without any coaxing. But neither of my two of the magna's will start although they ran just fine last week.

I have an 84 Magna that I use for experiments, You may remember I removed the front end and replaced it with an adjustable rake last year....I haven't done anything to it since.
That bike has also given me carburetor headaches ever since I brought it home. So it is a good  candidate for a injector experiment.  A prototype could be had for about $400 and a lot of hard work and invention ...The bike is just sitting there and I've got the time.. why not?

And if I can get it working on a V4 Magna its just a short step to get it running on a Connie.
1 Connie, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures