Author Topic: Fuel injection retrofit  (Read 17651 times)

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2018, 10:33:01 am »
Ok, keep us posted on the progress.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2018, 12:16:53 pm »
Spent an hour rearranging all the bikes to so could get this one into the garage. I laid one of my Connies down in the yard cause I  got stuck in the soft grass.
Got the magna in place and looking in side where the carbs and breather normally would be there is lots of room for experiments.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 07:48:17 pm by gpineau »
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »
I did some yard work today before getting started in the garage. 
Building a mock up of different ideas for a manifold. 
intake ports are 1.5 inch pipe.
the  small looking manifold is a propane tank.
the larger manifold is a 4 inch PVC pipe. ( I like it better and it will be easier to work with. )
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline kzz1king

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2018, 08:54:41 pm »
Turbo it. Draw thru with one carb
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2018, 08:34:35 am »
OK, I understand the layout better now. There is more room than I thought.
TB will be on 1 side...

One concern, I think the plenum I.D. and runner I.D.'s may be too big.
To keep a good flow velocity, I think: you'll need to use the smaller plenum, or even a smaller one.
                                                       & you may need to go to a thick wall on the runners.

Geez, where's the folks that know about things like this?
I'm totally guessing... But enjoying the discussion.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2018, 08:46:05 am »
kzz1king,

That was my first thought last year. Just put a single carb on top of the manifold. I presented that idea on the V4 Muscle bike forum and was nearly laughed out or the place. They thought it was devolving the bike. Even though I explained that I was sick and tired of cleaning the carbs of the green goop from Colorado gas.  That's when I  decided that I need to do an injector design before they would accept it as a worthy modification.

But I am really doing it for the experience and the education. I will use what I learn to make another for a Concours.  Who knows if i make it good enough it may turn into a product..Ha ha.


Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn,
Imagination sets in , pretty soon I'm singing, due, due, due looking out my back door.
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2018, 09:20:15 am »
connie_rider,

So we are talking apples to apples
let's call the plenum the box/pipe/container where everything is connected.
let's call the runners the pipe connecting the intake port to the plenum,
let's call the manifold the plenum and the runners connected together as a single unit.

I'm thinking about what you said about velocity and trying to imagine it in my mind where the velocity is created in a carburetor system. It seems to me that in a carburetor motor there is an air-box connected in some way to the carburetors either directly or through tubes. When connected directly i find there is a tube from the carb into the air box a inch or two long. I think in both cases  the purpose of the tubes is to create velocity into the throat of the carb before mixing with the fuel????

So i think (just thinking) that if there is a few inches of tubing (runners) between the plenum and the injectors the velocity will increase sufficiently to mix the fuel droplets. What do you think of this???

Look at the attached photo. The air-box and velocity tubes on this magna is every bit as big as my makeshift plenum.  Maybe i can include a flare on top of the runners ?
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2018, 11:27:56 am »
You sed;
So we are talking apples to apples
let's call the plenum the box/pipe/container where everything is connected.
let's call the runners the pipe connecting the intake port to the plenum,
let's call the manifold the plenum and the runners connected together as a single unit.

 {We're in agreement; I've been using the same names}

On the stock system each carb has a runner that is about 1" long x 1 1/4" ID.
      So the vacuum pulse from intake valve to carb is almost instant...
On your new system, the manifold is; 4 runners 3" long x 1 3/8" I.D., plus you have a 5" long x 3" I.D. plenum.
      (ie; the total area inside your manifold is huge compared to what you had).
        I think everything needs to be small enough; to keep the air moving quickly in the manifold runners, and to keep pulse timing (at the TB) closer to valve opening.

I'm not saying it right, but each time a valve opens, you will be pulling air from the entire manifold, not just 1 runner.
  (ie; Sounds like an RPM manifold instead of a Torque manifold).

Lastly, your 2 injectors will be where? (In the plenum? in the runners?)

All of this should be stated: "I think", because I'm totally guessing..
  {repeat; Geez, where's the folks that know about things like this?}

Ride safe, Ted

Offline tweeter55

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2018, 11:39:22 am »
Just throwing this out there (where?) there. If you design the intake runners too small (to speed thinks up) will you sacrifice top end power because of that restriction?
Do not try to live forever on this earth. You will not succeed.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2018, 12:44:44 pm »
Agreed.
I'm just saying, do not make them bigger than the I.D. of the stock Runner.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 04:54:54 pm by connie_rider »

Offline kzz1king

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2018, 02:18:05 pm »
Draw through turbo systems use a plenum and a single carb all the time. The main difference would be I believe the turbo mixes air and fuel better to prevent dropout. The one I built for an inline 4 900 Kawiworked pretty well. I think the V4 would be tougher to plumb the exhaust to but you would have more height to drain the oil back into the crankcase from the turbo
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2018, 10:26:51 pm »
The velocity stacks on my 98 magna are about 3 .5 inches long and are flared on the end.  On my 87 magna the stacks are only about an inch an a half long. It is not fared on the end and  Is just slightly larger that the mouth of the carb.

The runners that are pictured are just under 3 inches and do not have a flare.

So what are the velocity stacks for? The purpose is to accelerate the air and  force as much air as possible into the cylinder before the valve closes.  I dont think it will matter if that air is from a plenum or open atmosphere.  When the valve opens it is going to rush down the runner where it will mix with the droplets from the injector.
But I can see where the size of the plenum will have a dampening effect on sudden changes in the throttle.

But I dont think it is that critical. I have seen designs where the throttle body, injector and runner was one piece and just a couple inches long.

I have also see designs with very large plenums and long runners like my idea. I will try for the smallest that is feasible to work with.  In the photos the last one is for a Suzuki GSRX

I plan to mount the injectors on a 45 degree angle on the side of the runner. An alternative would be to place the inside the mouth of the runners inside of the plenum.
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2018, 09:08:20 am »
Good images and your making a good point that the plenum can be bigger than I thought.
 My understanding is you plan to inject into the plenum?
Looking at your images;
#1 (4) Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.
#2 (4) Throttle bodies and Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.
#3 Unknown. (Throttle body could have an injector, but I suspect it has 4 injectors)
#4 (Suzuki) (4) Throttle bodies and Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.

Velocity stacks are used to increase air velocity/volume before the carbs.

Not trying to shoot your idea's down. Injecting into the plenum will probably be fine.
Just throwing out thoughts.. (& I'm probably over thinking).
If you use 2 injectors, I think I would place them both at the center of your plenum. {with #1 aiming towards the front runners, and #2 aiming towards rear runners}.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2018, 07:05:40 pm »
Its been a terrible day for working on this project. Didnt get time until late this afternoon.
Was up late last night.
I pull into the garage and close the garage door and go into the house. Just as I step into the house I hear a loud noise behind me. I turn around and see nothing unusual. Later my wife tells me the garage door wont open. So after investigating I see one of the torsion springs has snapped and not enough lift to help the garage door opener. So what was going to be an easy 10 minute fix turned into a 4 hour series of bad luck mishaps.

I clamped the broken spring together at the break and then welded it back together. Rewound the spring and did a test. Looked like it was going to work until the door got half way up then it sagged to one side and froze into position.

Turns out when the spring broke the lift cables came off the spools and wrapped themselves around the shaft and kinked in several places. It was bound up tight, half open and tilted on an angle. Couldn't get access to the pulleys because of the door was partly open so I unbolted the top two panels and used the opener to pull them out of the way.

But as Murphy dictates both panels came loose from the railing and now I have two panels dangling from the opener rail bobbing side to side in the middle of the garage.

Oh well I thought I would deal with that later and resolved not to use the opener for assistance. So I managed to get the door straight and level on the floor again, I restrung the cables, and rewound the torsion springs and locked them into place.

Now it is time to reunite the two dangling panels with the rest of the door. I managed with the help of Fiona and two ladders to lift the two panels back onto the rails and straight and level. But I did not want to use the opener because it was too fast and jerky. So I put a rope hoist on the upper panel and tied the other end to a hook in the back wall of the garage. The plan was for Fiona to work the hoist and slowly feed me the panels while I kept them straight and on the rails. All was going so well until the panels reached the downward bend in the railing.

Then the full weigh of the panels pulled the knot out of the rope that secured the hoist to the back wall. The panels came crashing down off the rails completely. One side in the garage and the other outside.

Two more hours and I get the panels back inside the garage and on the rails again. Bolted everything together, gave up and went to bed.

What's the they used to say on hee haw. If it wern't for bad luck........

Then I take my car that my kid wrecked last month to the body shop to get an estimate for the insurance......they said it will probably be totaled.  So I had just a couple hours to myself in the garage this evening. 
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures

Offline gpineau

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Re: Fuel injection retrofit
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2018, 08:07:51 pm »
Just washed up and uploaded some photos of the plenum I made today.
I am not going to upload photos here because the site cant handle high res photos. I will post links to them at the end of this post.
I  got a piece of 3 in pipe to use as the plenum. It was easy to work with and did not take up that much room.  Drilled the holes for the runners and I surprised myself and didnt mess it up.
Will mount the throttle body to the top of it. Put the temperature sensor inside and the  vacuum sensor wherever there is room.   I also want to put a fuel presser regulator somewhere near here but as it is shaping up there is just enough room for a filter on top of the throttle body unless I mount it on the side.

I am pleased with he way things are fitting together.  I ordered the fuel injector bungs and throttle body so I am at a stand still until they arrive. I will use the time to study the relationships between temperature, rpm, load...etc

photos are here.
https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/28#28
2 Connies, 2 Magnas, 1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures