Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 33425 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2018, 04:18:28 pm »
It seems you may be deflecting here a bit. You can say with confidence that none of the British built weapons were sold illegally and floated across the waters? That they all came from the former Colonies or Libya?
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2018, 04:35:49 pm »
I do not think I ever said anything about what an AR- 15 looks like. ??

You are clearly more concerned with what you call assault weapons than handguns, and this unfortunately is an all- too common belief because the assault weapon "looks evil". But statistically, magazine fed auto-loading rifles are virtually insignificant in the instances of undesirable uses of firearms; it is the handgun that causes almost all the firearms related deaths and gunshot wounds in the US. In fact, guess which single model of firearm has the lowest fatality rate in the US of A...... yep, the AR-15 series of rifles.
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Perhaps you are starting to confuse me and maxtog? Do we 'all look alike' to you?  ;)

I am certainly not confusing you with Charles Rangle (NY) or John Lewis (GA) or Diane Feinstein (CA) though you seem to share a political party.

And there it is. The racism that I knew would raise it's ugly head sometime. With some sexism thrown in for cover. Well done.....

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And I have, and will continue to defend your right to say whatever you want, and further freely admit your thoughts and opinions are as valid as mine or anyone else's.

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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2018, 04:53:29 pm »

What I said is that most people have an irrational judgement about the AR-15 because of the way it looks... because it looks "scary" (and it does look scary) and that is true.   There are plenty of other non-military rifles that are just as or even more dangerous than the AR-15, but aren't being targeted (pun intended) because they lack the "look" of an intimidating rifle.  A typical hunting rifle is every bit as dangerous, but it doesn't have the look.


I get that the AR-15 is getting a lot of notoriety because it is being used in these high-profile mass casualties. It may very well be underpowered compared to other hunting rifles, but we are not talking about sniper marksmanship here. The targets are in relatively close quarters and you are conveniently ignoring the 50 - 60 round high capacity magazines that wreak havoc in a cluster of panicked individuals. The AR-15 is no more "scary looking" than any of the gobs of semi-automatics at Cabelas or Dicks. If anything the price makes it the saturday night special of semi-automatics.
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Offline lather

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2018, 04:55:44 pm »
A firearm does not have to be powerful to be lethal. I have read some medical accounts to the effect that the 5.56 inflicts massive damage on human tissue realtive to its size. And this reminds me that an AR-15 fan friend of mind once told me that the round is so deadly because it tumbles in flight or on impact. Any truth to that?


If we are going to do down that road, then I will step up and say (type) out loud: the caliber used in the AR-15, 5.56 NATO, is a relatively low power rifle caliber and in fact, far less powerful than many, if not most, pistol calibers. Somehow or other, the standard cartridge used in that rifle has been 'tagged' as some type of 'very powerful' cartridge and it is not, not even close. Not legal to hunt deer with in many states in the US, and absolutely lacking stopping and 'lethality' as compared with other, commonly used pistol and rifle cartridges.

For example, the classic 30-06 Springfield that everybody, starting with great- granddad used and continues to use for hunting, target shooting and typical sporting uses is far, far larger and more powerful than the 5.56 NATO. So is the 7.62 NATO cartridge, which is the same diameter and only very slightly behind the 30-06 in power, still far more powerful than the AR-15 caliber.

5.56 NATO is the standard service rifle caliber currently in use by the US armed forces (standard issue, not sniper rifles, etc.). It is by far the smallest and least powerful service rifle caliber to have been used by the US in a century and most likely, ever in the country's history. In fact, part of the reason it was adopted was its low recoil, the by- product of a low powered cartridge. The standard service cartridge from 1906 through 1957 was the already mentioned 30-06 Springfield, used in several bolt action rifles as well as the M1 Garand, still in wide spread use and in fact a standard target rifle and caliber at many of the largest shooting events in the US. From ~1957 to the mid- 1960's the US armed service standard issue rifle caliber was the 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester, and again it was virtually as powerful as the previous 30-06. Finally, when the AR-15 was adopted, it was adopted in caliber 5.56 NATO, or the equivalent .223 Remington (virtually interchangeable).

So the oft- stated 'legend' of this 'horribly powerful caliber' just is not correct.

The above is fact, but this is conjecture on my part: had the Las Vegas shooting been done with a similar but larger rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO, such as the FN-FAL that is the most widely used service arm in the 'free world' (often called 'the right hand of the Free World'), there would have been more fatalities due to both the increased lethality of the larger (and still standard sporting size) in initial wounds but almost certainly due to greatly increased power of the ricochets off the ground behind the initial victims (a human is almost NEVER NEARLY enough to stop a 7.62 NATO).

We can argue endlessly about many of these issues but the mechanical facts remain facts. The AR-15 is NOT chambered for a 'very powerful' or 'more powerful' caliber than is otherwise typically used in hunting, target shooting and general civilian use but in fact is LESS powerful than MOST calibers typically used by the civilian shooting public.

OK, end of rant.  ::)

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2018, 05:35:27 pm »
I never said an AR-15 was or was not lethal but as you brought it up, it most certainly is often lethal to small to medium sized, thin skinned mammals. My point was and is that the AR-15 is NOT chambered in a very powerful, particularly lethal cartridge, nor even one near the 'middle of the pack' of commonly used firearm calibers for normal, US hunting and target shooting. A typical LEO's .40 S&W, loaded with hollow points and used for a solid torso hit would would be, in my opinion and experience, far more destructive than . 5.56 NATO projectile in the identical place on the identical target, at least at close range (under 100 yards).

No. Another myth perpetuated by.... I have no idea who we have to thank for that one. No firearm purposefully uses a single projectile, long gun or short gun, that tumbles, nor have they ever done so as it would be a particularly ineffective thing to do.

If the bullet 'tumbled' in flight, it would do what is called 'key-holing' in targets (where the perforation is not round but elongated from the projectile passing through on its side.... leaving a penetration that looks like a 'keyhole'). Further, the only way a projectile of any kind can travel appreciable distances, with any accuracy, is if it travel along its axis, any appreciable 'wobble' is hugely detrimental, actual tumbling would effectively ruin the projectile's flight as well as use the projectile's kinetic energy at a fantastic rate, rendering the projectile far less effective in relatively short distances (less than 100 yards and it gets much worse as the distance increases). Please note that I did not say a tumbling projectile was not dangerous, merely that it is never, ever done with conical projectiles from long guns or short guns on purpose.

In fact, the only firearms I have ever seen do this are handguns in large diameter calibers, usually using lead bullets and 'leading' the barrel so badly that the rifling can no longer be seen. By the time tumbling actually occurs, accuracy is so poor that is it often necessary to move to a very short distance (under 10 yards) to the target to even be able to hit something the size of a target. And once that is done, the 'key-holing' obvious (the hole in the target is of a projectile sideways or close to that shape).

High velocity bullets can cause hydrostatic shock but again the AR-15's cartridge is well down in the range where that becomes important regarding lethality. The same .22 caliber projectiles driven from a .220 Swift (obsolescent now), 22-250 or a host of other, readily available and often used sporting calibers will easily add 30% to the projectile's velocity and begin to become effective through sheer velocity rather than velocity coupled with projectile weight and / or bullet wound channel size (caused by expanding bullets, which again, the AR-15 usually does not use although it certainly can). And again, a .30 caliber bullet traveling <nearly> as fast as a .22 caliber bullet will simply do more tissue and especially hard material (bone, cartilage) damage than the smaller bullet as well as penetrate far more.

If you want to read some interesting, in- depth accounts of calibers and their various wounding abilities, read the US gov't reports generated in the 1930's before the 30-06 was re- adopted for use in the then- new M1 Garand. A smaller, faster round was tried with mixed results and in the end rejected (a .276 diameter if memory serves). The reports are truly grisly but what else would one expect when studying gunshot wounds and trying to choose the most effective (read: the most tissue damage w/in reasonable restrictions, meaning that the average person can become proficient with that size caliber) caliber / velocity / projectile type and shape.

All the way back to the topic at hand: I am merely trying to bring some facts to a topic often skewed in one direction or the other by the various factions. All that I have said is easily verified by reputable sources, perhaps most notable the ordnance boards of the various US armed services over the years.

Brian

A firearm does not have to be powerful to be lethal. I have read some medical accounts to the effect that the 5.56 inflicts massive damage on human tissue realtive to its size. And this reminds me that an AR-15 fan friend of mind once told me that the round is so deadly because it tumbles in flight or on impact. Any truth to that?
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Offline lather

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #105 on: February 25, 2018, 05:59:18 pm »
Thanks for the reply Brian. Many years ago I researched  ballistics when I was interested in hunting and was impressed with the  Winchester .270 but decided my Winchester 94 was the best choice for the dense jungles of the Bayou State. But I lost interest in hunting... and fishing and watersking and autocross as my interest in motorcycling increased.  It's easier to be good at just one thing. :D
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #106 on: February 25, 2018, 06:27:20 pm »
It may very well be underpowered compared to other hunting rifles, but we are not talking about sniper marksmanship here. The targets are in relatively close quarters and you are conveniently ignoring the 50 - 60 round high capacity magazines that wreak havoc in a cluster of panicked individuals.

I am not ignoring anything, although I don't remember being asked to address that.  What is the question?  A full-sized 9mm handgun typically holds 17 rounds but one can often use a much larger magazine in that, too (although it would look strange and certainly be inconvenient because it sticks way out).  There is plenty of info on the 'net showing how a trained person can quickly and easily change magazines (hint, about 1 to 2 seconds).  50/17 = 3.  1 in the gun already, so that means 2 to 4 seconds of total downtime.  Not crippling.

Sure, a larger magazine is more convenient, and potentially more situationally deadly, but it is probably not a major factor with a well-prepared, crazy gunner on a rampage.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2018, 11:14:30 pm »
It seems you may be deflecting here a bit. You can say with confidence that none of the British built weapons were sold illegally and floated across the waters? That they all came from the former Colonies or Libya?

I'm sure that there have been occasions where British built firearms have been sold illegally and smuggled into/out of various countries
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Offline Rick Hall

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2018, 12:46:41 am »
I'm sure that there have been occasions where British built firearms have been sold illegally and smuggled into/out of various countries

 :yikes: :yikes:

Entertain the ignorant, what manufacturer? I know of at least one in Belgium, but have no clue about manufacturers in GB. Sorry.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #109 on: February 26, 2018, 01:16:26 am »
:yikes: :yikes:

Entertain the ignorant, what manufacturer? I know of at least one in Belgium, but have no clue about manufacturers in GB. Sorry.

Rick


Well lets see , there was the already mentioned Sterling , although they went bust in 98. Mind you we were back in the 1970's  for this sub thread ;)

Webley & Scott spring to mind as do BSA (although I think theyve probably long folded)

Technically BAE are firearms manufacturers as well then of course you have the various shotgun makers such as Purdey etc.


Found this list online


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=449261&page=1



Or slightly broader


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers
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Offline Rick Hall

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #110 on: February 26, 2018, 01:36:29 am »

Technically BAE are firearms manufacturers as well then of course you have the various shotgun makers such as Purdey etc.


I drooled for a Purdey side by side in my younger years. Mostly because I recreated an obsolete extractor for a friend. Fine firearms, beautiful examples of shooting sport artwork.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #111 on: February 26, 2018, 06:05:29 am »
Can't forget Holland and Holland. Arn't they the Roles Royce of firearms and made in London? I've seen some H&H guns but have never touched one.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2018, 07:05:45 am »
OFFTOPIC:

All / any of the English gun-makers who made double rifles around the turn of the century produced simply outstanding examples of the firearm maker's arts: Rigby, Holland and Holland, Purdy, Jeffery, and maybe a couple of others. Their products were simply the best they could be made with no thought to limits such as expense, manufacturing time, etc. They were, at least the large caliber (.400 and larger, 'dangerous game' calibers) almost always custom fitted to the purchaser, and included all the accouterments as well as a beautiful leather, wood and metal case.

They were almost all double rifles, exactly like a double- barreled shotgun but a true rifle, and often in impressively large sizes. Meant for the most dangerous game on the planet, and to be used and depended on where there were no spare parts, gunsmiths or support of any kind, they were as rugged as a brick in addition to being outstanding examples of precision and beauty. Most Americans do not even recognize them and thing they are a 'fat' double- barreled shotgun because they were almost never used in the US, where we always tended to prefer repeating firearms but if anyone ever gets a chance to see one, by all means do take the time to examine and enjoy it for a few moments.

BTW: because these are true rifles, they are actually very accurate. But the two bores do not share an axis and so are very slightly angled toward each other at the muzzle so the points of impact of each barrel crosses at a specified distance (and of course with a specified projectile, loading, etc.). The men who aligned these firearms were called regulators, and they would spend days fitting each rifle and shooting it from a bench to properly align the sights and both barrels. In the heavier calibers, this was truly punishing work. I read a story about one gentleman who suffered all sorts of physical damage from a career of doing this very thing on some of the most powerful rifles in the world. The size and power of these rifles was truly impressive; they were usually weighted with lead to make them 'sort of' manageable to shoot, and required 'gun bearers' to tote them around all day (multiple people, taking turns).

end OFFTOPIC:

Brian

Can't forget Holland and Holland. Arn't they the Roles Royce of firearms and made in London? I've seen some H&H guns but have never touched one.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2018, 11:10:40 am »
Found this today, 26 Feb. 2018.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/students-resolute-enter-school-shooting-045640708.html

Fifth paragraph down is the following:

"She's very lucky, very, very lucky" said Igor Nichiporenko, M.D., medical director of trauma services at Broward Health North, adding that the large caliber bullets "penetrated through her chest and abdomen."

This is exactly the type of incorrect statement, made by a learned person, a physician, that leads to so much general misunderstanding and outright errors that 'everyone knows' to be the truth. No one nor any authoritative source I am aware of or can find considers a .223 or 5.56 NATO to be a 'large caliber' in any way, shape or fashion.

Please understand I am not in any way trying to minimize this victim's injuries nor in any way shrugging off her extremely, apparently life- threatening injuries from multiple gunshots. I am just pointing out how falsehoods get mixed in with facts and are presented as 'evidence' in these types of contentious situations (gun control, nothing to do with this specific tragedy). And I am not trying to belittle the physician either, he simply made a mistake as we all do. But when these types of mistakes slide over into 'facts', it is unfortunate and leads to incorrect conclusions on the parts of many on- lookers.

Brian
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2018, 02:03:44 pm »
So I found this picture of common bullet sizes on the interwebs.

There are 18 bullets shown so working on the small , medium & large principle that very neatly gives us  6 of each size calibre




Found this today, 26 Feb. 2018.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/students-resolute-enter-school-shooting-045640708.html

Fifth paragraph down is the following:

"She's very lucky, very, very lucky" said Igor Nichiporenko, M.D., medical director of trauma services at Broward Health North, adding that the large caliber bullets "penetrated through her chest and abdomen."

This is exactly the type of incorrect statement, made by a learned person, a physician, that leads to so much general misunderstanding and outright errors that 'everyone knows' to be the truth. No one nor any authoritative source I am aware of or can find considers a .223 or 5.56 NATO to be a 'large caliber' in any way, shape or fashion.

Please understand I am not in any way trying to minimize this victim's injuries nor in any way shrugging off her extremely, apparently life- threatening injuries from multiple gunshots. I am just pointing out how falsehoods get mixed in with facts and are presented as 'evidence' in these types of contentious situations (gun control, nothing to do with this specific tragedy). And I am not trying to belittle the physician either, he simply made a mistake as we all do. But when these types of mistakes slide over into 'facts', it is unfortunate and leads to incorrect conclusions on the parts of many on- lookers.

Brian
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #115 on: February 26, 2018, 02:07:17 pm »
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/23/serial-failure-heres-how-government-totally-dropped-the-ball-in-stopping-florid-n2453448

Good summary of the so many failures and warning signs.  Cruz might have just as well walked around with a sign saying "I am a ticking time bomb.  Please stop me."

...

... but if he did, people probably would have either chuckled or thought he was just some odd feller trying to get attention, and after the first few times of seeing him wear it people would've gotten used to and thought not much of it.

It sure seems like there's no solution to trying to predict and stop this kind of crime before damage is done.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2018, 02:28:01 pm »
There are several errors in that placement, starting with a .22 LR being more 'powerful' than a .380, a 9mm being more powerful than a .40 S&W, a 5.56 NATO being more powerful than a 7.62 X 39 (standard caliber of AK-47, SKS and other similar firearms), the 5.56 NATO also being more powerful than the .300 Blackout, the 7.62 X 54R being more powerful than the 7.62 NATO and the 12 ga. being more powerful than the .50 BMG and very possibly, the 30-06 Springfield.

I would not use that particular chart for firearm cartridge instruction or proof myself.  ;)

But back to rifle calibers, I would claim that the 5.56 NATO is the least powerful rifle cartridge (primarily rifle, some knock- off lever actions use .357 magnum though it absolutely IS a pistol caliber) in that chart.

But before we argue, we need to decide on what defines 'power' as it applies to cartridges anyway. We can use muzzle energy, or what is commonly accepted by the hunting community as acceptable 'power' for various game, etc. But again, by either of those two standards, the 5.56 NATO will fall well behind both .30 caliber cartridges to its left in that chart.

Brian

So I found this picture of common bullet sizes on the interwebs.

There are 18 bullets shown so working on the small , medium & large principle that very neatly gives us  6 of each size calibre



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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2018, 04:22:59 pm »
my tongue may have been slightly in my cheek.

On the other hand there are lies, damned lies & statistics ;)

All depend s on how you define "large"


Is it physical size or based on power?

It's the same with cycles , a small bike may be more powerful than a large bike, depends whether you're measuring it on physical size, capacity, horespower, torque


There are several errors in that placement, starting with a .22 LR being more 'powerful' than a .380, a 9mm being more powerful than a .40 S&W, a 5.56 NATO being more powerful than a 7.62 X 39 (standard caliber of AK-47, SKS and other similar firearms), the 5.56 NATO also being more powerful than the .300 Blackout, the 7.62 X 54R being more powerful than the 7.62 NATO and the 12 ga. being more powerful than the .50 BMG and very possibly, the 30-06 Springfield.

I would not use that particular chart for firearm cartridge instruction or proof myself.  ;)

But back to rifle calibers, I would claim that the 5.56 NATO is the least powerful rifle cartridge (primarily rifle, some knock- off lever actions use .357 magnum though it absolutely IS a pistol caliber) in that chart.

But before we argue, we need to decide on what defines 'power' as it applies to cartridges anyway. We can use muzzle energy, or what is commonly accepted by the hunting community as acceptable 'power' for various game, etc. But again, by either of those two standards, the 5.56 NATO will fall well behind both .30 caliber cartridges to its left in that chart.

Brian
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #118 on: February 26, 2018, 04:26:37 pm »
I would not use that particular chart for firearm cartridge instruction or proof myself.  ;)

Me neither.  They also left off all the other small calibers, [except the 22LR which is misplaced- the 380 is MASSIVELY more powerful than a .22LR- 3 times the weight and double the energy] .32, .22 short, .22 magnum, .25, I am sure I am missing some in there.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2018, 06:15:57 pm »
I am not ignoring anything, although I don't remember being asked to address that.  What is the question?  A full-sized 9mm handgun typically holds 17 rounds but one can often use a much larger magazine in that, too (although it would look strange and certainly be inconvenient because it sticks way out).  There is plenty of info on the 'net showing how a trained person can quickly and easily change magazines (hint, about 1 to 2 seconds).  50/17 = 3.  1 in the gun already, so that means 2 to 4 seconds of total downtime.  Not crippling.

Sure, a larger magazine is more convenient, and potentially more situationally deadly, but it is probably not a major factor with a well-prepared, crazy gunner on a rampage.

Just to be clear, this near equivalency of a 9mm handgun with a 17 round magazine and a couple of extra magazines to a semi-automatic rifle with a 50 round magazine can be achieved by a 19 y.o. punk with an addled mind and probably shitting his pants during the mayhem? We are not talking about a Navy SEAL here, right?
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