Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 33397 times)

Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2018, 05:13:15 am »
Guess all the goodness drained out of him when he heard the gunfire. Dereliction of duty is the appropriate description here. Early reports are that he had a checkered past in law enforcement. :banghead:
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2018, 09:58:28 pm »
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/23/serial-failure-heres-how-government-totally-dropped-the-ball-in-stopping-florid-n2453448

Good summary of the so many failures and warning signs.  Cruz might have just as well walked around with a sign saying "I am a ticking time bomb.  Please stop me."  I have no idea how they got that "confidential" Florida Department of Children and Families investigative summary, but it is horrifying (link is in the article).  And that is just ONE document!  There is no way anyone can deny mental illness in this case.

Had our EXISTING policies and laws been enforced properly, this probably would not have happened at all.
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2018, 06:24:58 am »
Does the Broward County Sheriff' Department have a non-engagement policy?
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Offline Conrad

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2018, 07:37:08 am »
Does the Broward County Sheriff' Department have a non-engagement policy?

It would appear that they do. Now the story is that when the Coral Springs LEOs arrived at the HS that there were 4 Broward Sheriffs outside the school. 3 'taking positions*' behind their squad cars and one 'taking position*' behind building 12.


* aka cowering.
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2018, 07:42:52 am »
Did none of those 'officers' have children? If they do what do those children think of their fathers now?
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2018, 08:59:53 am »
It would appear that they do. Now the story is that when the Coral Springs LEOs arrived at the HS that there were 4 Broward Sheriffs outside the school. 3 'taking positions*' behind their squad cars and one 'taking position*' behind building 12.


* aka cowering.

What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2018, 09:54:10 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.

sanmo, I don't think anyone is saying they WANT teachers to carry guns, there saying if there were teachers who want to get trained and carry guns then it might make our children safer.

And whether it's teachers, administrators or janitors, it makes more sense to have them conceal carry.  The kids in class wouldn't even know who was carrying and who wasn't so they wouldn't be "terrified".  Do you walk around terrified everywhere you go?  Next time your out in public, try to guess who is carrying a gun, and who isn't.

And remember ... were out there ... everywhere ... with our guns ... and we will protect you too.   8)

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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2018, 10:32:52 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.
Not really sure about their 'good guy'status.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2018, 10:39:03 am »
Yeah, but it could be that's what they were told or a policy.   We don't know that yet.   But I do know if I knew children we're being harmed I wouldn't be cowering behind vehicles.  I'd be in there trying to save them regardless of the cost.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2018, 11:35:04 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun.

Um, no, not if they cower outside.  What a ridiculous statement.

Quote
Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.

No it isn't, not if the person is trained and licensed.  The whole point is that there might already be someone on or IN the scene and ready and with something direct to lose.  And nobody is saying teachers SHOULD [must]  be armed, just that they (and other staff) should have that option on the table (concealed, of course).

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On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.

Nah, they will still spend every waking moment staring at their phones.  And students would have no business knowing who is or isn't armed.  Just knowing there MIGHT be armed, good citizens around (like in most places) would be a major deterrent to choosing lethal activity. 
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Offline Conrad

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2018, 06:59:11 am »
Yeah, but it could be that's what they were told or a policy.   We don't know that yet.   But I do know if I knew children we're being harmed I wouldn't be cowering behind vehicles.  I'd be in there trying to save them regardless of the cost.

Since the first LEO, who was cowering behind the building, was immediately suspended, I'm guessing that his actions violated policy.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2018, 07:14:45 am »
sanmo, I don't think anyone is saying they WANT teachers to carry guns, there saying if there were teachers who want to get trained and carry guns then it might make our children safer.

This sounds good in theory, but operationally so many things can go wrong. I really hope that whatever they come up with is effective,

Quote
And whether it's teachers, administrators or janitors, it makes more sense to have them conceal carry.  The kids in class wouldn't even know who was carrying and who wasn't so they wouldn't be "terrified".  Do you walk around terrified everywhere you go?  Next time your out in public, try to guess who is carrying a gun, and who isn't.

How many school teachers, administrators or janitors do you know wear concealing jackets or vests on the daily job? I suppose strapping to the leg is an option though it rules out a large caliber needed to be effective against a maniac with an AR-15. Keeping it in a bag or lockbox has associated problems of unauthorized access.

Quote
And remember ... were out there ... everywhere ... with our guns ... and we will protect you too.   8)

Thanks for the offer of protection, but I'd much prefer if both you and the bad guy left your weapons at home. Getting near a shootout between you warriors just doubles my risk of getting hurt by the crossfire.  :)


Quote
Everyone has there place in society ... the sheep ... the wolves ... and yes ... the sheepdogs ... always on watch, protecting the flock.   Baaa! Baaa!

True, and sometimes the sheepdogs turn out to be just Yorkies or Bichon as in the Parkland tragedy. All bark and no bite.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2018, 08:57:33 am »
This sounds good in theory, but operationally so many things can go wrong.

If you believe that there is a huge crisis in [bad on good] gun violence, then you ALREADY believe "so many things can go wrong."

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How many school teachers, administrators or janitors do you know wear concealing jackets or vests on the daily job?  I suppose strapping to the leg is an option

As is pocket carry, and inside-pant carry, and several other methods.

Quote
though it rules out a large caliber needed to be effective against a maniac with an AR-15.

One doesn't need a "large caliber" gun to be effective on someone in such a school attack.  This isn't a sniper situation.  "Scary-looking rifle" doesn't give the shooter some magical ability.

Quote
Thanks for the offer of protection, but I'd much prefer if both you and the bad guy left your weapons at home.

Fallacy.  Your desire to have a good person leave their weapon at home will do absolutely nothing to compel a bad person to do the same.  If we are going to live in a fantasy, I would much prefer there be no more violence in the world.  Let me know when you have a workable plan for that.  Meanwhile, I much prefer to have options to protect myself and those I care about.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2018, 11:00:37 am »
If you believe that there is a huge crisis in [bad on good] gun violence, then you ALREADY believe "so many things can go wrong."

As is pocket carry, and inside-pant carry, and several other methods.

One doesn't need a "large caliber" gun to be effective on someone in such a school attack.  This isn't a sniper situation.  "Scary-looking rifle" doesn't give the shooter some magical ability.

Fallacy.  Your desire to have a good person leave their weapon at home will do absolutely nothing to compel a bad person to do the same.  If we are going to live in a fantasy, I would much prefer there be no more violence in the world.  Let me know when you have a workable plan for that.  Meanwhile, I much prefer to have options to protect myself and those I care about.

Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".
Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda. You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine, in the aftermath of the Parkland shooting. I am not a medical doctor so I cannot confirm the accuracy of her pathology report, but have no reason to doubt it either.  https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2018, 11:36:46 am »
I do not think I ever said anything about what an AR- 15 looks like. ?? Perhaps you are starting to confuse me and maxtog? Do we 'all look alike' to you?  ;)

I am certainly not confusing you with Charles Rangle (NY) or John Lewis (GA) or Diane Feinstein (CA) though you seem to share a political party.

And I have, and will continue to defend your right to say whatever you want, and further freely admit your thoughts and opinions are as valid as mine or anyone else's.

Brian (not maxtog)

Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".
Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda. You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine, in the aftermath of the Parkland shooting. I am not a medical doctor so I cannot confirm the accuracy of her pathology report, but have no reason to doubt it either.  https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2018, 12:28:45 pm »
Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".

I don't find any of it humorous, no.  And  tend not to try and make implied statements veiled as jokes so I can then later state that isn't what was meant.  I am not saying that is what you are doing, I don't know.

Quote
Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda.

What I said is that most people have an irrational judgement about the AR-15 because of the way it looks... because it looks "scary" (and it does look scary) and that is true.   There are plenty of other non-military rifles that are just as or even more dangerous than the AR-15, but aren't being targeted (pun intended) because they lack the "look" of an intimidating rifle.  A typical hunting rifle is every bit as dangerous, but it doesn't have the look.

Further, I am not really even a fan of the NRA.  I believe in and support many of their causes, but I am certainly no mouthpiece for them.

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You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine

Yes, in fact, I do a lot of research and saw it before your posting.  I don't think it is particularly enlightening or revealing at all.  We all know that rifles are typically much more powerful and deadly than hand guns.  But they are also extremely difficult to conceal and carry and are rarely used in bad-on-good attacks.

Your statement was that you could not defend effectively against an AR-15 with a low caliber gun.  What I said was that was incorrect.  I didn't say or imply a low-caliber handgun was as effective or as deadly as an AR-15.  However, if a mad AR15 gunman burst into a building and started shooting people at close range (as was done in this school shooting), having even a few people shoot at him with ANY caliber weapon could end it quickly.

Would it surprise you to know I don't even own a rifle, and don't plan to?
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2018, 12:32:52 pm »
For many of us this side of the pond the word "Armalite" is synonymous with the Provisional IRA as many AR15s & AR18s were purchased (legally I believe) in the US with funds provided by Irish American Republicans before being smuggled in (illegally) to Northern Ireland on ships such as the QE2.

A little more than scary looking, the AR18 was particularly liked by them for it's stopping power and indeed became known as "The WidowMaker" over here.

Footnote. Am aware that this was not the PIRAs sole source of arms as they got a shedload of them(plush cash) from amongst others the Libyans)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2018, 02:19:39 pm »
If we are going to do down that road, then I will step up and say (type) out loud: the caliber used in the AR-15, 5.56 NATO, is a relatively low power rifle caliber and in fact, far less powerful than many, if not most, pistol calibers. Somehow or other, the standard cartridge used in that rifle has been 'tagged' as some type of 'very powerful' cartridge and it is not, not even close. Not legal to hunt deer with in many states in the US, and absolutely lacking stopping and 'lethality' as compared with other, commonly used pistol and rifle cartridges.

For example, the classic 30-06 Springfield that everybody, starting with great- granddad used and continues to use for hunting, target shooting and typical sporting uses is far, far larger and more powerful than the 5.56 NATO. So is the 7.62 NATO cartridge, which is the same diameter and only very slightly behind the 30-06 in power, still far more powerful than the AR-15 caliber.

5.56 NATO is the standard service rifle caliber currently in use by the US armed forces (standard issue, not sniper rifles, etc.). It is by far the smallest and least powerful service rifle caliber to have been used by the US in a century and most likely, ever in the country's history. In fact, part of the reason it was adopted was its low recoil, the by- product of a low powered cartridge. The standard service cartridge from 1906 through 1957 was the already mentioned 30-06 Springfield, used in several bolt action rifles as well as the M1 Garand, still in wide spread use and in fact a standard target rifle and caliber at many of the largest shooting events in the US. From ~1957 to the mid- 1960's the US armed service standard issue rifle caliber was the 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester, and again it was virtually as powerful as the previous 30-06. Finally, when the AR-15 was adopted, it was adopted in caliber 5.56 NATO, or the equivalent .223 Remington (virtually interchangeable).

So the oft- stated 'legend' of this 'horribly powerful caliber' just is not correct.

The above is fact, but this is conjecture on my part: had the Las Vegas shooting been done with a similar but larger rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO, such as the FN-FAL that is the most widely used service arm in the 'free world' (often called 'the right hand of the Free World'), there would have been more fatalities due to both the increased lethality of the larger (and still standard sporting size) in initial wounds but almost certainly due to greatly increased power of the ricochets off the ground behind the initial victims (a human is almost NEVER NEARLY enough to stop a 7.62 NATO).

We can argue endlessly about many of these issues but the mechanical facts remain facts. The AR-15 is NOT chambered for a 'very powerful' or 'more powerful' caliber than is otherwise typically used in hunting, target shooting and general civilian use but in fact is LESS powerful than MOST calibers typically used by the civilian shooting public.

OK, end of rant.  ::)

Brian


<snip>

Yes, in fact, I do a lot of research and saw it before your posting.  I don't think it is particularly enlightening or revealing at all.  We all know that rifles are typically much more powerful and deadly than hand guns.  But they are also extremely difficult to conceal and carry and are rarely used in bad-on-good attacks.

Your statement was that you could not defend effectively against an AR-15 with a low caliber gun.  What I said was that was incorrect.  I didn't say or imply a low-caliber handgun was as effective or as deadly as an AR-15.  However, if a mad AR15 gunman burst into a building and started shooting people at close range (as was done in this school shooting), having even a few people shoot at him with ANY caliber weapon could end it quickly.

Would it surprise you to know I don't even own a rifle, and don't plan to?
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2018, 02:41:33 pm »
For many of us this side of the pond the word "Armalite" is synonymous with the Provisional IRA as many AR15s & AR18s were purchased (legally I believe) in the US with funds provided by Irish American Republicans before being smuggled in (illegally) to Northern Ireland on ships such as the QE2.

A little more than scary looking, the AR18 was particularly liked by them for it's stopping power and indeed became known as "The WidowMaker" over here.

Footnote. Am aware that this was not the PIRAs sole source of arms as they got a shedload of them(plush cash) from amongst others the Libyans)
Are you sure some of the AR18s used during The Troubles didn't come from Sterling in the your own country?
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2018, 03:47:35 pm »
Are you sure some of the AR18s used during The Troubles didn't come from Sterling in the your own country?

Some of them may have been made by Sterling originally, equally some of them may originally have come from Howa in Japan as well as out of the Armalite factory in the US.

Where they were made isn't quite the same thing as where they were bought. :)








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