Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 33423 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 03:51:32 pm »
I hear what you are saying, and I do believe it would be effective but I am wary of the peripheral costs of such an approach, again in a densely populated, confined area.

It is a matter of statistical analyses and such.  Yes, having armed guards and teachers DOES increase the likelihood of peripheral damage.  But when the choice is, for example:

1) Lose many good lives by a bad intruder.
2) Lose many fewer good lives by a bad intruder stopped by a good person and in the process possibly a collateral good life.

The choice seems more rational.  Of course, there are many other possibilities.  But I bet if one examines all the outcomes, based on actual situations, one will find out the second choice wins, by a wide margin.  Seeking solution that expects a perfect outcomes all the time is doomed to failure in one or more metrics.

Quote
The controlled entrance(s) and metal detectors method is also certainly not desirable in the least but I think it might be the only thing that would prove effective immediately.

But it is only affordable or practical where the risk is so high that it makes sense.  Some schools already do this- in areas with a history that shows it is necessary.  Otherwise, we are just what I call "fighting lightening".... lightening is random and disastrous but also rare and incredibly unpredictable.

Quote
Frankly, I do not think there really is a 'good' solution to this problem and that is the most unfortunate aspect of all IMO. I do not like problems without solutions and suspect no one does but that is what this appears to be: a problem without a solution, only undesirable ways to address it with unknown costs, though they will be substantial, and unknown benefits.

About the only rational thing to do is to research what causes some students to go haywire.  The same haywire students can stab a bunch of people, run a car over dozens of students in the school playground, or throw a gasoline bomb through a classroom window.  We might not like the conclusions... I can even guess some of them:

* Breakdown of the nuclear family
* Lack of proper parenting
* Lack of morality teaching (in whatever flavor it comes)
* Social media pressures
* Smart phones
* Lack of mental health resources
* Over pampering of students (no child left behind, awards for non-merit, lack of goal settings, etc)
* Lack of discipline and holding people responsible for their actions (instead of the "everyone is a victim game)

So you replace one impossible situation with few answers with a whole bunch of other perhaps somewhat lesser impossible situations with few answers.  I bet those factors are all the same when looking at child suicide.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 05:41:38 pm »
Difficult to address the points in your layered post but the two points I think I can address are 1) the idea of more armed people inside a public school and 2) the cost of controlled and limited entry (basically setting up a manned entrance point where fast screening for metal (metal detector portal only) is done and nothing more. I am absolutely NOT talking about airport level security here but rather a fast scan and pass = enter, fail = [no entry] but no further testing.

I think the screening method is actually the more inherently balanced, enforceable system with fewer unknown risks going forward. Both (a large armed presence and tight entry screening) will cost something but I believe it can be done w/in acceptable parameters.

As to your 'fighting lightening' thought, I actually agree but have a different viewpoint: I call it 'the shotgun fix'. It is not accurate in that it does not pinpoint a specific problem (or threat) and address that problem directly but it is a blanket solution with an extremely high likelihood of absolute success. Again, we probably have different backgrounds but one of my areas of responsibility has been industrial safety, on a machine or production line basis. Basically, how to keep people attached to all their appendages and NOT have their respiration stopped by an automatic machine, procedure or process. The 'shotgun solution' works well here; safety curtains around the [machine, area, production line], be they mechanical or electronic (scanning lasers are wonderful for this) simple stop the machine / line when anything penetrates that barrier. There is no effort to determine if it is a human or a soda can, ANYTHING past a certain point and the line shuts down. This is crude in that it is not selective but it is extremely effective because humans quickly adapt to the situation and do not allow something like a soda can to enter the 'hot zone' because it will stop the line, and someone will be cranky about that. So the people around this system become part of the very regulation needed to make it work.

The idea of screening all personnel entering a public school would be the same: metal detector goes off, you do not get in. It is your responsibility to [not bring] notebooks with metal ring binders with you, not the responsibility of the school or safety personnel to find said notebook and remove it. Metal detector goes off, you do not get in and tomorrow, you should be better prepared to enter school. It would be easy enough to put a metal detector in a pre- entrance room so personnel could check themselves to find out if they can pass or not when they get to the actual testing procedure.

And again the 'shotgun fix' aspect of this is global: it will catch firearms, ammunition, magazines but also knives, metal toes work boots and about anything else that IS NOT NEEDED in a public school.

As to your social fixes and changes, all of that may be an excellent idea also but it will not work in the next 30 days: the metal detector proposal will I believe. But two or more solutions can be used at the same time, even more is fine and the metal detector method does not preclude any other devices or procedures you mentioned nor others yet.

One last point: as far as the statistical analysis, I am afraid that will not work in practice. I am not saying it is a bad idea, in fact I believe it is absolutely correct but the extremely simple emotional approach will kill that with 'what is one child's life worth'. Of course one can put a price on that but the person that says it is done as a public figure of any kind whatsoever. If you do not believe me, ask Ford if the cost of fixing an extremely remote and rare problem with a Pinto could be put into dollars (yes, it is NOT worth $9 per car and that memo, when made public, resulted in some of the very first corporate personnel to be charged with felonies in this country..... ever).

And so the logic of your ideas of acceptable collateral damage done in the name of the 'greater good' will be shouted down en mass when a child is shot or killed by the 'good guy' who also shot the 'bad guy'. It is not that you are not right, it is that that entire idea cannot be sold to the public.

Brian

It is a matter of statistical analyses and such.  Yes, having armed guards and teachers DOES increase the likelihood of peripheral damage.  But when the choice is, for example:

1) Lose many good lives by a bad intruder.
2) Lose many fewer good lives by a bad intruder stopped by a good person and in the process possibly a collateral good life.

The choice seems more rational.  Of course, there are many other possibilities.  But I bet if one examines all the outcomes, based on actual situations, one will find out the second choice wins, by a wide margin.  Seeking solution that expects a perfect outcomes all the time is doomed to failure in one or more metrics.

But it is only affordable or practical where the risk is so high that it makes sense.  Some schools already do this- in areas with a history that shows it is necessary.  Otherwise, we are just what I call "fighting lightening".... lightening is random and disastrous but also rare and incredibly unpredictable.

About the only rational thing to do is to research what causes some students to go haywire.  The same haywire students can stab a bunch of people, run a car over dozens of students in the school playground, or throw a gasoline bomb through a classroom window.  We might not like the conclusions... I can even guess some of them:

* Breakdown of the nuclear family
* Lack of proper parenting
* Lack of morality teaching (in whatever flavor it comes)
* Social media pressures
* Smart phones
* Lack of mental health resources
* Over pampering of students (no child left behind, awards for non-merit, lack of goal settings, etc)
* Lack of discipline and holding people responsible for their actions (instead of the "everyone is a victim game)

So you replace one impossible situation with few answers with a whole bunch of other perhaps somewhat lesser impossible situations with few answers.  I bet those factors are all the same when looking at child suicide.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 08:10:14 pm »
(basically setting up a manned entrance point where fast screening for metal (metal detector portal only) is done and nothing more. I am absolutely NOT talking about airport level security here but rather a fast scan and pass = enter, fail = [no entry] but no further testing.

If you have no hard perimeter/entry and nothing but an unarmed guard and a metal detector (the typically seen "cheap" solution), it will accomplish nothing but negatives.  That is what I call "security theater."  All the fear, all the inconvenience, and much of the cost, with little effectiveness.  The teenager could walk up to detector, pull out a gun, shoot the guard dead, and then start shooting everyone he wants inside.  Alternatively, he could work with someone else and gain access through any emergency exit, be inside in seconds and shoot anyone he likes, unchallenged.  This is exactly the type of nonsense one sees at concert halls, theme parks, and the like.

Quote
The idea of screening all personnel entering a public school would be the same: metal detector goes off, you do not get in.

That is, indeed, technologically possible, with a multi-layer entry system.  An open entry, then protection of the guard and internal personnel behind bullet-proof walls/glass/doors that are only opened to people who pass.  It really requires 3 doors/chambers to work (insecure entry/waiting, testing, and secure)- one main entry area, then one that allows a single person into a holding area and the door behind them locks, they are screened by automated equipment, and then the third door unlocks.  But this is typically big, expensive, and very slow entry..... one person at a time, rinse and repeat.  And if someone can't pass through due to false positives, it holds up everyone.  Unless, of course, you now replicate the 3-door system in parallel for additional entrances.  $$$!  Next point of irony..... since it now takes a long time to get in, there will be lots of people in the main insecure area waiting to get in.... still with no armed "good" people.  Bam, instant target area.  Same with parking lot.  Same with buses.

Quote
As to your social fixes and changes, all of that may be an excellent idea also but it will not work in the next 30 days:

Correct.  The hard problems take a long time to solve.  Many of the things that have created the situation have taken decades of social problems. 

Quote
One last point: as far as the statistical analysis, I am afraid that will not work in practice. I am not saying it is a bad idea, in fact I believe it is absolutely correct but the extremely simple emotional approach will kill that with 'what is one child's life worth'.

Exactly.  When people think with emotion and not reason, nothing will work.  We just end up with emotional laws that do little but create a lot of collateral damage.

My ending point is the same as been heard a lot- "the only thing that really stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun."  Same with deterrents.  Same with nuclear weapons.  You can't un-release the genie from the bottle.  Fortunately, there are typically a LOT more good people than bad.... or we really would be screwed.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 12:36:55 am »
As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned. All you can do is try & chip away at the problem. Sadly there is no quick/easy fix.


The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,0001 to 310,000,0002


The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in the United States is 101.05

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states


++++++++++++++

"The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were
handguns.Seventy-four percent of those individuals were reported to own more than one
firearm.

According to the ATF, by the end of 1996 approximately 242 million firearms were
available for sale to or were possessed by civilians in the United States. That total includes
roughly 72 million handguns (mostly pistols, revolvers, and derringers), 76 million rifles, and 64
million shotguns

By 2000, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 259 million: 92 million handguns, 92 million rifles, and 75 million shotguns.

By 2007, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns
."
Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf


Comparison on guns per 100 Head of population


Rank   Country   Guns per 100 residents   
1    United States   101
2    Serbia   58.21   
3    Yemen   54.8   
4    Cyprus   36.4   
5    Saudi Arabia   35   
6    Iraq           34.2   
7    Uruguay   31.8   
8    Norway   31.3   
9    France   31.2   
10    Canada   30.8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:46 am »
As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned.

Even if you took away almost all guns, they still exist and would still have to be addressed.  It is worthy to note another view about guns, too.  They are an equalizer.  Pretty much all other weapons require some type of physical strength or stamina to wield, allowing the physically powerful to dominate everyone else.  And the more physical strength/stamina the more effective such domination becomes.  Guns allow women to be more equal with men, and the less wealthy, weaker, older, sicker, or disabled to have effective protection.  In a strange sort of way, it fits nicely with the concept of democracy and voting equality (1 citizen, 1 vote).

Quote
The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

Most [USA] gun owners have many guns each.  It isn't paranoia or hoarding- you can really only use one at any given time and, for carry, 1 or 2 is all that is generally practical.   I think four factors explain it best:  1) Many owners upgrade several times as they look for what they like the most or as newer technology comes available and retain what they previously purchased.  2) Many are collectors and like the variety and design.  3) There are different roles for different weapons- one might have a home protection gun, a full-sized carry gun, a smaller concealed gun, hunting guns, several target guns, training guns, etc.  4) Some engage in repair and restoration and/or speculation.

I am not a collector nor hunter and have only what I need for different roles (#3, above), which currently amounts to 4 roles (home defense, large carry, small carry, target) with one upgrade duplication for a total of 5, all pistols.

If I had the money (purchase, upkeep, taxes, insurance) and space, I would certainly have more than one car and one motorcycle :)
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Offline Conrad

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 04:06:52 am »
10 years to the day for the shooting at NIU. I was there and it was like a war zone.

http://northernstar.info/news/years-later-learning-from-tragedy/article_ee5d9982-120a-11e8-975d-d76e2644553b.html
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 06:05:04 am »

The sheer number of guns available is quite frankly staggering:

The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,0001 to 310,000,0002

"The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were
handguns.Seventy-four percent of those individuals were reported to own more than one firearm.

By 2007, the number of firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns
."
Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf

Comparison on guns per 100 Head of population


Rank   Country   Guns per 100 residents   
1    United States   101
2    Serbia   58.21   
3    Yemen   54.8   
4    Cyprus   36.4   
5    Saudi Arabia   35   
6    Iraq           34.2   
7    Uruguay   31.8   
8    Norway   31.3   
9    France   31.2   
10    Canada   30.8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.

And when I posted about allowing teachers and or other persons in schools to be allowed to conceal carry, my thought was to remove the idea of schools being gun free zones.  I know it would not deter all bad guys intent on shooting up a school from trying to do so ... but ...

If we could save just one child ...
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 06:33:29 am »
Yes, we have a lot of firearms, pretty randomly spread throughout the population and area of the country (with some notable exceptions). Of course whether or not this is 'a problem' or simply the way the US works is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

And there are other, smaller genies waiting in the wings that you may not even be aware of in the UK.

The first thing is that a 'firearm' must be defined, and we have done so in the US by calling the 'part' that carries the serial number, usually the frame, "the gun"; all the other parts are simply machine parts that are not in any way firearms. So let us take the so often talked about AR-15 rifle for example; it is the lower receiver that is the 'firearm', with the great majority of the parts of that particular piece of hardware, including the difficult to manufacturer as well as the heat- treated parts [not] being part of the firearm. That means one can buy, own, sell, make, alter, possess or anything else, any and all of the parts of an AR-15 except the lower receiver.

Bear with me, I am going somewhere with this, I promise. Now, that lower receiver starts out as a block of aluminum, which is clearly not any part of a firearm but then goes through a manufacturing process to become the receiver that IS the firearm, and that part is regulated. But at what point does that piece of aluminum become a receiver? It is when it moves past the 80% point of the manufacturing time that it takes to make one. So, make an AR-15 lower but leave out the fire control group holes, leave a portion of the inside un=machined and it is NOT a receiver and firearm.

With the advent of CNC controlled machinery, and the refinement and general miniaturization of these machines over the years, they have become quite small, relatively inexpensive, and depending on software, easy to use. Now a complete 3-D milling machine needed to turn an 80% lower receiver into a 100% lower receiver is less than $1,000, not regulated in any way (hey, it is a machine tool, like a drill press) and can be set up to run on anyone's kitchen table.

So, tomorrow morning make "assault rifles" illegal in the US and an entire cottage industry will crop up to supply them illegally anyway. Oh there will be no where near the number being sold today, that is a fact, and statistically it would look great: AR-15's being introduced to the civilian population would drop by 99.9% but any gang- banger or worse yet, anyone hell- bent on doing great damage will be able to get one from some local 'back yard' operation. Sure the gov't will shut down and arrest those doing this, but others will spring up and just continue along. It will be like the US's War on Drugs, which ain't goin' all that great either: we intercept a huge amount of illicit drugs coming in to the US and those who supply them just ship even larger quantities.

So as you correctly point out Mike, the genie is long out of the bottle and has spread to all the corners of this country, there are other, smaller genies waiting in the wings to become a serious problem. Removing the firearms such as was done in the UK and Australia simply is not an option in the US, at least not one that would be effective for decades or centuries, but there are now other ways that will easily  supply that incredibly small part of the population that is actually causing all the firearm issues.

That leaves population controls or as maxtog suggested, changing the 'hearts and minds' of those few who are causing all of the violence. Changing the hearts and minds, or at least identifying the problem individuals would be best but is also the most difficult and given our Constitution, it would be difficult- to- impossible to 'stop' those deemed a threat anyway. Which leaves controlling the population as the only thing that has a chance of working; more security, less personal liberty, traded for less violent outbursts.

Brian

As stated previously elsewhere  (& which I don't think you would necessarily disagree about) the problem for you guys is that the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned. All you can do is try & chip away at the problem. Sadly there is no quick/easy fix.

<snip>

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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 06:58:17 am »
I'd be interested in info on a sub thousand dollar 3D mill.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 10:26:07 am »
I cannot point you toward any specific one(s) but I have seen them made to be used specifically for this purpose. They are not general purpose machine centers but specialized 'hobbyist' tools meant to do that one job only. It is more of a very elaborate and accurate router than a true milling machine but the point holds: they are available, unregulated and are not likely to ever be regulated; how would anyone regulate machine tools or power tools?

The ones I have seen are basically variations on this theme: https://www.banggood.com/2417-3-Axis-Mini-DIY-CNC-Router-Wood-Craving-Engraving-Cutting-Milling-Desktop-Engraver-Machine-240x170x65mm-p-1209292.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_elc&utm_content=zouzou&utm_campaign=pla-us-ele-Laser-Equipment-pc&gclid=CjwKCAiAn5rUBRA3EiwAUCWb28D7fsEvXh4_GWo2VIIJ4Fp_LEBv_bHIEw4y-VrzSKTWHbHn0f5y5hoC_qwQAvD_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN

For a more general purpose hobbyist machining center, you have to reach a little beyond a thousand dollars but not much; there are small gantry- type, general purpose machines available for under $2,000 pretty readily. Most of them are really routers but will cut steel albeit slowly and only with small cutters. A quick search will turn up a lot of examples like this one:https://www.sign-in-china.com/products/16215/new_professional_4060_desktop_cnc_router_drilling_milling_machine.html?ex=USD&utm_source=Googleshopping_us&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=googleshopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAn5rUBRA3EiwAUCWb2w4u3_cSar2X0c_8ZLiKVuJPJXSUXY2M8jmtlfgIBRvLFxX1_q3sRxoCoNEQAvD_BwE

And there are some pretty slick and surprisingly rugged and rigid kits out there that work pretty well, again for under a thousand dollars or so.

Back to the 80% receivers: a quick search will also turn up finished receivers being made as an illegal 'cottage industry' already; if the firearms are banned, there will just be a larger, still illegal, cottage industry that will crop up to supply them. In my own opinion, firearm regulation will not yield acceptable results; the recent Las Vegas terrorist attacker spent a great deal of time, money and effort to collect the hardware he used and I believe he would have done the same thing but gone a slightly different route had the hardware he purchased not been available legally. We tried to prohibit alcohol one time before too and that did not really work out IMO.

Back to the original topic, I would really like to see  some improvement here; my first grandchild is on the way and soon enough will be in the school system as well as 'out in the world' in the US. So it is not a case of 'us' or 'them', it is 'we' and I would like to see my grandchild(ren?) enter an improved environment. Put crudely and simply: I do not want to get 'that phone call' either, and we are all in this together so I am motivated to seek real improvements.

Brian

I'd be interested in info on a sub thousand dollar 3D mill.
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Offline Dualsport

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2018, 10:56:56 am »
Limited entry is the only solution--and the person defending at the limited entry should be behind adequate bulletproof cover and have the adequate defensive/repelling capability until the calvary can arrive. I am willing to open my wallet to achieve this. It must be done at every school, even the most rural. That means State level action and Federal funding assistance.
Too many issues and too many logistics to get caught up in to rationalize anything else. Further delay is unconscionable. Yes, we need to help or identify those that are troubled, but we are a heartbeat away from ISIS -- or some other insanity from attacking our hallowed places. Bombs, shootings, stabbings -- or any other kind of assault we haven't envisioned or encountered yet, must occur outside the walls of the Public school.
I received a traffic ticket in Springfield, MO and traveled there to fight the ticket. Our Oklahoma courthouse has one Sheriff Deputy (looks like he's the newest member of the force) and a metal detector, and it's simply inadequate protection against a determined combattant. However, the courthouse in Springfield is practically safeguarded with efficient limited access, e.g. it's efficient to get in, but not armed. If their Sherriff doesn't press a button, then the bulletproof revolving door will not allow access. It did not look impractical and should not be financially prohibitive.   We just have to do it. Even if you don't buy what I'm sell'n as any kind of a long-term solution, it is a practical first step. If in places we're willing to defend a courthouse to this level, then how could we ever rationalize not doing so to protect our most valued in society our children.

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2018, 11:17:42 am »
That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.


That or you only have to worry about the Crazy Canucks & the Mad Mexicans ;)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2018, 11:54:09 am »
Limited entry is the only solution--[...]Even if you don't buy what I'm sell'n as any kind of a long-term solution, it is a practical first step. If in places we're willing to defend a courthouse to this level, then how could we ever rationalize not doing so to protect our most valued in society our children.

I think most rational people would come to the same conclusion (one I said earlier, and Brian, and you are echoing)- you can't greatly protect an uncontrolled area- one where good people are likely not armed and bad people could be.   Interestingly, it is even possible for schools to NOT be gun-free zones and still work fine.  The objective should be to keep "bad" armed people out.  Licensed gun owners (those with a valid/active concealed carry permit) are actually among the most law-abiding and "good" people out there... armed or not.  Such a controlled-entry system could allow licensed  armed people into the secure area with little concern.  Of course, EMOTIONALLY, most people just can't deal with those facts.

I will just repeat an interesting statistic I used in the other thread as an example....  people might easily accept the idea of allowing an armed police officer into such a secured zone, yet scoff at the idea of a licensed civilian.  Police are who society trusts with guns, and demands they be armed to "protect us."  We think of them as having passed all kinds of tests of their character and ability.   And yet, as good (generally) as police officers are, police officers commit 700% more felonies than licensed, armed civilians!  In Texas, a comparison of all crimes lets that number soar to 1000% more than licenses civilians.  Guns are not the problem, it is who has them.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/8255/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-most-law-aaron-bandler
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/02/comparing-conviction-rates-between-police-and-concealed-carry-permit-holders/
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2018, 01:01:05 pm »
That could be the reason no other country has tried to invade the USA in many, many years.


Actually, the U.S. is being invaded continually.  "Illegal immigration" is a poor term and disguises the fact that if you enter the country LEGALLY, then yes, you are an immigrant.  If you enter ILEGALLY then you are in fact, an invader.


The news quote regarding 18 school shooting is disingenous as it includeds ANY discharge of a firearm within school property or close by even if no students involved:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2018/feb/15/jeff-greenfield/mostly-false-18-us-school-shootings-so-far-2018-an/



If guns are THE problem, then how come, with the millions of rounds fired at shooting ranges in this country, very few are shot/killed at a those locations?  And mostly by accident.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-die-annually-at-shooting-ranges-in-the-US



Schools are poorly designed for defense or evacuation.  I haven't been in a school since I graduated in 1973, but my recollection combined with news pictures says that they all have rooms with ONE door that opens to a hallway.  And the windows are not designed for easy egress.  There is no way out for students in the case of fire or threat except to go down that hallway, meaning slow evacuation, follow-the-slowest-leader style.  A shooter just has to walk down the hall and let the victims come out or go into the room and commence slaughter as the victims have no other way out.  Better would be an outside door in each room is ALWAYS LOCKED and that only opens OUT, so each room could be emptierd rapidly, let the kids push the door open and run like hell.  Sheltering inside is only minimally effective, and once the shooters learn that people hide in closets then they just start shooting into the closets.  I can't imagine there is much inside a school that will stop a rifle round.  I've shot .223 through a lot of stuff and it penetrates pretty well.


Figuring out how to stop producing psychopaths would help a lot, but I have no idea how to go about that.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2018, 01:25:56 pm »
Figuring out how to stop producing psychopaths would help a lot, but I have no idea how to go about that.

If you do, you would certainly earn a Nobel prize. 

https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

Unfortunately, it seems most of these rare acts of extreme and senseless violence are, indeed, committed by psychopaths and sociopaths.  Even more unfortunate is that the best science can tell, people are born with varying degrees of psychopathic tendencies.  The real slippery slope is that we are getting better at detecting who actually is higher or lower on the scale, even at an early age.  I have seen programs that claim an FET brain scan can spot psycho/sociopaths.... the common trait being that they cannot empathize correctly with others and that actually shows clearly in the scans when questioned about certain topics.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:16:41 pm by maxtog »
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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2018, 01:32:30 pm »
The BBC is reporting at least 17 fatalities.


What's also sad is that its only the 7th week of the year and this is already the sixth school shooting incident in 2018 that has either wounded or killed students.


Edit: Another news site I've read it on (The Guardian) says its at least the 8th this year

Just a tad misleading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.82ea612a8cf5

Offline Rhino

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2018, 01:34:03 pm »
I am wary of arming any significant number of people in crowded, public places, especially closed- in places, simply because the potential for collateral shooting victims would increase, at least IMO. No amount of training or skill will prevent the shooting of the wrong people by mistake, or even the shooting of unintended people in addition to shooting the 'right' person(s) due to over penetration.

Arming civilian guards has worked to stop school shootings in Israel.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2018, 01:57:14 pm »
On this I disagree: psychopathy is not a binary (Positive or Negative) state but a sliding scale. Further, some amount of psychopathy is actually desirable in many instances and functions in society; those following statistical analysis vs. emotional reaction are demonstrating psychopathic behavior.

Also, given our constitution, what exactly would we do about sociopaths / psychopaths anyway? Due process and all that will stop preemptive action on the part of almost all official agencies and systems currently in place. 'Innocent until proven guilty' really gets in the way of pre- prosecuting those [perhaps more likely] to commit crimes vs. those [less likely to commit crimes] before any crime is committed. Unless we are willing to toss the entire Constitution, and I personally am not willing to do that for any amount of increase in perceived safety (as it will be false safety anyway but the traded freedoms will most certainly be gone, most likely forever).

Further, I am not sure it is truly psychopaths that are the real problem. I believe it may well be people perhaps outside the 'normal' behavioral envelope, but then again perhaps not, who are having either a crisis situation or are reaching the end of a long- term, building, crisis situation. Could this perpetrator of this FL tragedy have been steered through some type of counseling / oversight and then back toward an acceptable existence? I am not sure that is NOT the case. I have no reason to believe that that man is a psychopath at all really. And I think it is really dangerous to think that a very small segment of our society are the only ones that will and have caused us harm due to a major psychological defect; normal people in a time of crisis are far more likely to present the larger danger I think. For every Ted Bundy, a true psychopath that no amount of help or oversight would have worked on, IMO, there are hundreds or thousands of psychologically 'normal' people who 'snap' or 'overload' for some period of time.

But we are straying from the topic at hand I think, and that is what can and / or should be done about these recent events in public schools. As I believe the emotional response will carry the day, we will have to do something, effective or not, so we should try and make what we do as effective as possible while staying w/in the limits of our own laws and overall rules. Which brings me all the way back to what can be done immediately and is most likely to be effective [not foolproof or 100% effective but simply effective]. And again I propose a very simple, limited access portal to public schools will address this issue w/in a matter of weeks if we choose to do it. To add a portal onto every single public school in the US is within the realm of possibility, would use standard construction materials and practices, and readily available and well- proven devices such as metal detectors. The fine points are not really far less important such as operators behind bullet proof glass or not; what is important is that only those who can pass through a metal detector without setting it off are allowed to enter the second and final part of the entrance portal and actually enter the school proper.

Will it be a P.I.T.A.? Yep. Will it be costly (monetarily, as well as wasted time)? Yep. But it would also be effective IMO and be a good return on the effort and money expended in putting in such mechanics.

Is it reprehensible that elementary schools should require dual- station, secure entry points with metal detectors? Yep. But it is 2018 and the idea of living in the good ole' days of the 1950's is gone, so this is the real world that we must deal with IMO.

And beyond all of that, as I said before, any or even many other options can be refined, put into place, discussed, and so forth AFTER the entrance portals are in place in front of public schools. This restriction would in no way affect our ability or the desire to do other things to enhance safety and with a little luck, better address the root cause(s) of these situations. But right now, this month, I believe it offers the best way to address the situation of violent outbursts in public schools in the US.

Brian

If you do, you would certainly earn a Nobel prize. 

https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

Unfortunately, it seems most of these rare acts of extreme and senseless violence are, indeed, committed by psychopaths and sociopaths.  Even more unfortunate is that the best science can tell, people are born psychopathic or not.  The real slippery slope is that we are getting better at detecting who actually is one, even at an early age.  I have seen programs that claim an FET brain scan can spot psycho/sociopaths.... the common trait being that they cannot empathize correctly with others and that actually shows clearly in the scans when questioned about certain topics.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 02:15:20 pm »
On this I disagree: psychopathy is not a binary (Positive or Negative) state but a sliding scale.

We probably don't disagree at all.  I shouldn't have worded it as a yes/no, I know it is variable, just paying the price now for sloppy/quick posting.  I just edited it, to help with that.  And yes, it can actually be "positive" in some ways (when on the lower end of the scale and with proper nurture).  I spent hours researching it years ago, and it is quite fascinating.

Quote
Also, given our constitution, what exactly would we do about sociopaths / psychopaths anyway?

That was my "slippery slope" disclaimer.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 02:15:31 pm »

Quote from: mikeyw64 on Yesterday at 12:16:22 am
Quote
The BBC is reporting at least 17 fatalities.


What's also sad is that its only the 7th week of the year and this is already the sixth school shooting incident in 2018 that has either wounded or killed students.


Edit: Another news site I've read it on (The Guardian) says its at least the 8th this year

Just a tad misleading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.82ea612a8cf5

I never said there had been 18 school shootings this year.


The news reports that I referenced were that this was the 6th or 8th this year here there had been injuries or fatalities which ties in with the Washington Post article.


"Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury"
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