Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 19937 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2018, 03:15:22 pm »
Yep, it was me who said that this was the 18th "school shooting" of 2018. And that was probably a very misleading report I should not have quoted as I did not research it at all before I posted that- shame on me (seriously).

Now, to turn a completely different corner in this discussion: while tragedies such as this Florida shooting get vast amounts of attention, they are relatively rare and statistically almost insignificant in actual fact. I am not minimizing the pain and suffering of the victims or their families, nor am I minimizing this tragedy in any way but the fact is that the risk of an American to be shot in a public school approaches zero in actual fact. It is very emotionally moving but in reality, does not reflect much actual risk in the US of attending our public school system.

Just like air travel, the safest way to commute by far, it gets an abnormal amount of attention when there is an air carrier (airliner) accident simply because of the scale of the death involved in a single incident. But the real danger of travel is and always has been automobiles, though they rarely make the national news.

Which brings us to the really hard question that no one wants to state aloud: do we <really> have a gun problem in the US or is it merely exaggerated emphasis on a meaningless statistic? The Concorde went from being the one of the safest public accessible aircraft to one of the deadliest aircraft after a single accident killing all on- board..... is that really meaningful data or is it just an irrelevant statistic?

If I have in any way inadvertently accused you of any misdeed or miss- statement in this thread, I apologize Mike and certainly did not mean to do so. Again, my entire purpose in this thread is to try and discuss potential advances regarding public school safety without knocking anyone or any group. I bear no one ill- will and am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone else. But this is a very contentious issue in the US, brought to a very fine point right now by this last weeks' tragedy in Florida and so it is somewhat difficult to discuss in a detached way, at least for a lot of us in the US I think. I know it is for me: I want all Americans to be as safe as possible of course, and abhor the death of anyone that is not inevitable (we have heart disease and cancer to kill us off- we do NOT NEED to kill each other!), especially children and yet I believe in, support and try to follow our Constitution at the same time.

Brian

Only reason I quoted everytown is it was quoted in the Washington Post article which was being used to demonstrate that I was incorrect about claiming 18, which actually I hadn't ;)


Even Everytown only has 5 school shootings in hours this year which is in line with what was stated in my post (although Possibly the BBC & The Guardian were using them as source, its not clear).

The 18 figure (which ironically I believe actually came from yourself initially in this thread which is maybe where Rhino got confused) ) includes such things as the suicide at a school which had been closed for 7 months
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2018, 03:20:34 pm »
It wasn't you that got confused :)




If I have in any way inadvertently accused you of any misdeed or miss- statement in this thread, I apologize Mike and certainly did not mean to do so.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2018, 03:25:19 pm »
But I get your point about scale Brian.

In an earlier post I stated there were circa 300 million firearms available to US civilians.
For the same year as those figures there were just over 12k homicides involving firearms (ie excluding suicides, legal shootings, accidental discharges etc)


Expressed as percentage of available firearms that 12k is 0.004%

In the UK using the same sort of figures it's 0.00014%

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Offline B.D.F.

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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 05:28:19 pm »
Yep, it was me who said that this was the 18th "school shooting" of 2018. And that was probably a very misleading report I should not have quoted as I did not research it at all before I posted that- shame on me (seriously).

But you didn't do it intentionally, like Everytown does it all the time.  So you are forgiven!  The only scary and typically relevant statistic is (1) bad kills good.  But most any statistic Everytown and their like throws around include (2) bad kills bad, (3) one kills self, and (4) good kills bad.  To me (and most like me) (1) being horrible/tragic/unacceptable/dangerous,  (2) being "whatever, you reap what you sow", (3) being "sad but happens", and (4) being perhaps "yay!"  And they know it matters tremendously in their inaccurate messages because 2-4 often account for a supermajority of the shootings.  Then we can further muddy the water when they include "wounding" and even further when it includes "intimidation" or even just "shots fired" hitting nothing.  Oh, and involving schools, another one of their favorites is to lump in gun violence that might technically be on school GROUNDS (like a sidewalk) but had no involvement at all with students or even teachers, and usually not even during school hours.

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Now, to turn a completely different corner in this discussion: while tragedies such as this Florida shooting get vast amounts of attention, they are relatively rare and statistically almost insignificant in actual fact.

Not really a new corner... remember my "Fighting Lightening"....  We humans seem to be programmed to horribly skew risk calculations by emotional reaction, not by examining rational facts.  It is exactly the same with the "war on terror."  More people are killed by bees or lawnmowers every year in the USA than foreign terrorism.  And yet we now spend billions and billions of dollars, scare everyone constantly, and even suspend Constitutional rights in the name of protection from terrorism.

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the risk of an American to be shot in a public school approaches zero in actual fact. It is very emotionally moving but in reality, does not reflect much actual risk in the US of attending our public school system.

And thus, doesn't necessarily warrant spending billions of dollars turning schools into oppressive, high security zones?  There is one quick and easy way to greatly reduce school mass shootings and deaths.  One that costs the government nothing and can be implemented almost instantly.  One that not only offers resistance to such events, but even major deterrence from them even happening in the first place.  One that "does something" : Allow good people to have guns there.

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Which brings us to the really hard question that no one wants to state aloud: do we <really> have a gun problem in the US or is it merely exaggerated emphasis on a meaningless statistic?

I already said it out loud, more than once, actually :)
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2018, 06:54:54 pm »
To put it simply.... We have armed guards to protect our airplanes and airports. We have armed guards to protect the court houses, judges and lawyers. We have armed guards in the mall  to protect the retail sales and products. We have armed guards to protect the factories, office buildings and other real property. We have armed police patrolling the streets and highways. We have the greatest military on earth to protect the country. But for some bizarre reason we won't do what is necessary to protect our children. Speaks volumes about our society.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2018, 05:51:40 am »
.... But for some bizarre reason we won't do what is necessary to protect our children. Speaks volumes about our society.

How about a simple solution of regulating the sale of assault weapons or not rolling back regulations banning sale of weapons of mentally ill persons? Speaks volumes about a segment of our society, indeed.....
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2018, 06:01:41 am »
Nobody here, that I am aware of, worships guns.  Many cherish their rights, though.

So now cue the call for more "gun control" laws that would NOT have prevented this tragedy (in a "gun free zone") but WILL make it harder for good people.

I'm sure you are aware of the use of metaphors. If you insist on being literal, perhaps the following rewrite will be to your taste.

"Thoughts and prayers to Parkland, FL and now let's get back to celebrating/venerating our guns.  :banghead:"
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2018, 06:09:49 am »
So what do you put on the alter in your batcave?  Maybe it's where you worship at the alter of global warming?
...or where you strive for Nirvana or a socialist utopia maybe. Or are we now both being a bit ridiculous?

Am unsure whether you are using "worship" and "alter" (sic) literally or metaphorically, but in any case your suggestions for my altar are not worship-worthy. Best I can do is hope for Nirvana and utopia and a reduction in global warming.  One way to prevent a discussion from becoming ridiculous is to stop shooting from the hip. (More gun-speak for your enjoyment)
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2018, 06:33:49 am »
Even if you took away almost all guns, they still exist and would still have to be addressed.  It is worthy to note another view about guns, too.  They are an equalizer.  Pretty much all other weapons require some type of physical strength or stamina to wield, allowing the physically powerful to dominate everyone else.  And the more physical strength/stamina the more effective such domination becomes.  Guns allow women to be more equal with men, and the less wealthy, weaker, older, sicker, or disabled to have effective protection.  In a strange sort of way, it fits nicely with the concept of democracy and voting equality (1 citizen, 1 vote).

Most [USA] gun owners have many guns each.  It isn't paranoia or hoarding- you can really only use one at any given time and, for carry, 1 or 2 is all that is generally practical.   I think four factors explain it best:  1) Many owners upgrade several times as they look for what they like the most or as newer technology comes available and retain what they previously purchased.  2) Many are collectors and like the variety and design.  3) There are different roles for different weapons- one might have a home protection gun, a full-sized carry gun, a smaller concealed gun, hunting guns, several target guns, training guns, etc.  4) Some engage in repair and restoration and/or speculation.

I am not a collector nor hunter and have only what I need for different roles (#3, above), which currently amounts to 4 roles (home defense, large carry, small carry, target) with one upgrade duplication for a total of 5, all pistols.

If I had the money (purchase, upkeep, taxes, insurance) and space, I would certainly have more than one car and one motorcycle :)

Interesting that guns are viewed as an equalizer even with adequate law enforcement (police). Without getting too personal, since you have been candid about being vertically challenged, did you encounter juvenile bullying and did that motivate your purchase of a variety of handguns? In my mind, one handgun to protect against home intruders is justifiable. Also, military veterans, especially combat veterans (with safeguards against PTSD) would have a moral high ground for gun ownership.
I know the Second Amendment is relevant and important to many people, but they did not have the AR-15 in 1791.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2018, 06:39:19 am »
How about a simple solution of regulating the sale of assault weapons or not rolling back regulations banning sale of weapons of mentally ill persons? Speaks volumes about a segment of our society, indeed.....

1) So called "assault weapons" are no more dangerous than typical hunting rifles.  They are just "scary looking".   The AR-15 (which is what is generally meant by the non-sense term "assault weapon") is just the common, default, popular, modern, non-military, non-automatic, multipurpose rife of this century.  The rounds it shoots are actually pretty weak.  What makes it so popular is that it is extremely reliable, has wide multi-manufacturer support and compatibility, and lots of available accessories (lights, scopes, handles, straps, lasers, etc); the same accessories also available for every other design of rifle.

2) All gun sales are very much regulated, already.

3) It is already illegal to buy, own, possess, or use guns for a long list of persons.

4) What is being rolled back is not selling to "mentally ill persons", it is to people that could be CLASSIFIED as "mentally ill" when, in fact, that is not at all what was being done.  Having someone else do your finances doesn't make one mentally ill.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2018, 06:54:40 am »
1) So called "assault weapons" are no more dangerous than typical hunting rifles.  They are just "scary looking".   The AR-15 (which is what is generally meant by the non-sense term "assault weapon") is just the common, default, popular, modern, non-military, non-automatic, multipurpose rife of this century.  The rounds it shoots are actually pretty weak.  What makes it so popular is that it is extremely reliable, has wide multi-manufacturer support and compatibility, and lots of available accessories (lights, scopes, handles, straps, lasers, etc); the same accessories also available for every other design of rifle.

2) All gun sales are very much regulated, already.

3) It is already illegal to buy, own, possess, or use guns for a long list of persons.

4) What is being rolled back is not selling to "mentally ill persons", it is to people that could be CLASSIFIED as "mentally ill" when, in fact, that is not at all what was being done.  Having someone else do your finances doesn't make one mentally ill.

What sort of hunting requires a semi-automatic rifle and related inventions like the bump stock? The regulations and restrictions that you refer to are riddled with loopholes. Being classified by a health professional as mentally ill is how you identify a mentally ill person, no? Cannot expect them to voluntarily carry a sign proclaiming mental illness. What does having your finances done by someone else have anything to do with mental illness?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2018, 06:58:06 am »
Interesting that guns are viewed as an equalizer even with adequate law enforcement (police).

When seconds matter, the police are just minutes away!

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Without getting too personal, since you have been candid about being vertically challenged, did you encounter juvenile bullying and did that motivate your purchase of a variety of handguns?

No.  I wasn't bullied any more than most anyone else.  Actually, I wasn't bullied much at all.  I don't think being 1-2" shorter than the average male of my generation made any difference.  Owning a handgun is a precaution no different than wearing all proper gear on my bike, even though I have never had an accident.  Buying a generator before I even ever lost power for an extended period.  Or having locks and alarms on my house, even though I have never been burglarized or home-invaded.

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In my mind, one handgun to protect against home intruders is justifiable.

And when not in the home?  And why does having 2 or 4 or 6 make it any different?

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Also, military veterans, especially combat veterans (with safeguards against PTSD) would have a moral high ground for gun ownership.

So military veterans should have more rights than other citizens?

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I know the Second Amendment is relevant and important to many people, but they did not have the AR-15 in 1791.

They also didn't have electricity, phones, TV, Internet, tasers, cars, motorcycles, tear gas, hedge funds, nuclear weapons, or vaccines.  So far, I think the Constitution has stood the test of time well, even though it is often ignored or corrupted.  The AR-15 is the musket of our time, just like a 15 round semi-automatic handgun is the blunderbuss/Duval/Sharpe pistol of our time, just like the car is the horse and carriage of our time.  Free speech on the Internet is protected now the same as on parchment paper hundreds of years ago.  During THEIR time, their guns were the most dangerous personal/common weapon they would encounter on the streets.  You will note the Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" it doesn't say "to keep and bear arms only of the type or power of this writing."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:43:03 am by maxtog »
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2018, 07:02:44 am »
How about a simple solution of regulating the sale of assault weapons or not rolling back regulations banning sale of weapons of mentally ill persons? Speaks volumes about a segment of our society, indeed.....
Please explain precisely what you're talking about here. Or are you repeating what you heard?

Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2018, 07:14:42 am »
What sort of hunting requires a semi-automatic rifle


What sort of motorcycle riding requires 0-60 in 3 seconds?
What sort of car driving requires cruise control?
What sort of house living requires 3 bathrooms?

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The regulations and restrictions that you refer to are riddled with loopholes.


Which would be what?  The infamous "gun show loophole"??  I would be glad to shred that to pieces with facts and statistics, if needed...

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Being classified by a health professional as mentally ill is how you identify a mentally ill person, no? Cannot expect them to voluntarily carry a sign proclaiming mental illness.


I can tell you are completely unfamiliar with what was done, why people are upset, and why it is being done away with.  If a veteran had their income check sent to someone else that helps with managing their finances, THAT WAS BEING REPORTED AS MENTAL ILLNESS!  And to add insult to injury, there was no due process in removing someone's Constitutionally guaranteed rights!

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/444582/no-gop-did-not-just-repeal-background-check-system-or-give-guns-mentally-il

If they can do that, what is next on the list of "mental illness?"  Telling your doctor you are depressed?  Frustrated?  Tired?  Telling a nurse?  Telling a healthcare clerk?

What DOES constitute "mental illness" is being in a mental hospital or being actually CLINICALLY diagnosed with a RECOGNIZED mental illness by a competent doctor.  But that isn't what was happening.
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