Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 21833 times)

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5542
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2018, 07:20:16 am »
Darn max, I was wondering if Mr. sanmo could actually tell us about the mental health thing or if he was stuck on talking points.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2018, 07:20:57 am »
.....
So military veterans should have more rights than other citizens?

They also didn't have electricity, phones, TV, Internet, tasers, cars, motorcycles, tear gas, hedge funds, nuclear weapons, or vaccines.  So far, I think the Constitution has stood the test of time well, even though it is often ignored or corrupted.  The AR-15 is the musket of our time, just like a 15 round semi-automatic handgun is the blunderbuss/Duval/Sharpe pistol of our time, just like the car is the horse and carriage of our time.  Free speech on the Internet is protected now the same as on parchment paper hundreds of years ago.  During THEIR time, their guns were the most dangerous personal/common weapon they would encounter on the streets.  You will note the Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" it doesn't say "to keep and bear arms only of the type or power of this writing."

In this matter, I trust military veterans to have the proper moral compass and training needed for responsible gun ownership. Remember the "well regulated militia" aspect of the Second Amendment?

What do any of the wonderful (and not so wonderful) innovations that you enumerated have to do with interfering with the benefits of the Bill of Rights. If the US Constitution is a living document the right conferred to bear arms should not be an unfettered right. Cigarettes are not illegal today solely because they have been in use for centuries. Knowing what we now know about its harmful effects, it would be banned if attempted to introduce it as a new product today.


2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2018, 07:51:46 am »
What sort of motorcycle riding requires 0-60 in 3 seconds?
What sort of car driving requires cruise control?
What sort of house living requires 3 bathrooms?


Meaningless analogies and I can give trite answers to each of them. You did not answer my question.

Quote
Which would be what?  The infamous "gun show loophole"??  I would be glad to shred that to pieces with facts and statistics, if needed...


Private sales on the internet. For example, the Las Vegas gunman was able to illegally purchase armor-piercing bullets and the vendor got nabbed only because his fingerprints were found on the shipment.

Quote
I can tell you are completely unfamiliar with what was done, why people are upset, and why it is being done away with.  If a veteran had their income check sent to someone else that helps with managing their finances, THAT WAS BEING REPORTED AS MENTAL ILLNESS!  And to add insult to injury, there was no due process in removing someone's Constitutionally guaranteed rights!

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/444582/no-gop-did-not-just-repeal-background-check-system-or-give-guns-mentally-il



If a SS recepient (not just a veteran) had their finances being managed due to a mental impairment then they would get flagged. By pushing veterans as the rallying point, the entire "mentally ill" restriction was rolled back?

Quote
If they can do that, what is next on the list of "mental illness?"  Telling your doctor you are depressed?  Frustrated?  Tired?  Telling a nurse?  Telling a healthcare clerk?

What DOES constitute "mental illness" is being in a mental hospital or being actually CLINICALLY diagnosed with a RECOGNIZED mental illness by a competent doctor.  But that isn't what was happening.


Ahh.....the familiar slippery slope argument.
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline turbojoe78

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2018, 08:01:38 am »
In this matter, I trust military veterans to have the proper moral compass and training needed for responsible gun ownership. Remember the "well regulated militia" aspect of the Second Amendment?

What do any of the wonderful (and not so wonderful) innovations that you enumerated have to do with interfering with the benefits of the Bill of Rights. If the US Constitution is a living document the right conferred to bear arms should not be an unfettered right. Cigarettes are not illegal today solely because they have been in use for centuries. Knowing what we now know about its harmful effects, it would be banned if attempted to introduce it as a new product today.

Cigarettes don't kill people ... people kill people!

Wait ... cigarettes do kill people ... we must BAN them to save people from harming themselves.   >:(

Knowing what we now know about its harmful effects, it would be banned if attempted to introduce it as a new product today.

Then there was the invention of the E-Cigarette introducing a brand new way to ingest nicotine and kill ourselves.   :'(


2014 ZG1400 Concours COG memb# 8645


Offline turbojoe78

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2018, 08:14:20 am »
Private sales on the internet. For example, the Las Vegas gunman was able to illegally purchase armor-piercing bullets and the vendor got nabbed only because his fingerprints were found on the shipment.

sanmo, could you point out to us, any of our current gun laws, or any you would like to have added that would have stopped that ILLEGAL purchase.
2014 ZG1400 Concours COG memb# 8645


Offline mikeyw64

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • Country: wales
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2018, 08:24:26 am »
In this matter, I trust military veterans to have the proper moral compass and training needed for responsible gun ownership. Remember the "well regulated militia" aspect of the Second Amendment?



That's a very good point that's often overlooked.


So what is the definition of "militia"

"(in the US) all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=militia&oq=militia&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



Ok so maybe a good starting point is to remove weapons from anybody who isn't eligible by law for military service.


That's fully in line with the word & spirit of the second amendment isn't it ?


Problem is as I read it the only legal requirement to join the US Military is  that ", you must either be a US citizen, or you must be a legal permanent immigrant, physically living in the United States, with a green card."  so actually that's probably a non starter

https://www.thebalance.com/us-military-enlistment-standards-3354003

Ok one that might offend a a group is to automatically exclude anyone who is not "able bodied" from owning a firearm as by the definition at the top  they are not eligible to join a Militia


And then I started thinking, is there a legal definition the the US Codes about what a Militia is and it turns out there is

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."

Edit Insert : Ah I found the Dick Act as well in relation to legal definition of the US Militia

Ok so  to summarise the 2nd amendments states that for the purpose of maintaining a well regulated militia that citizens can keep & bear arms.

Given that by US definition to be a member of the Militia in  the US you have to be male & between 17 & 45 or female and in the National Guard.

Nobody else should need to own or keep firearms , so sorry Brian etc, Hand em in as the Rule books say you don't need them ;)


Footnote , there is a proviso to the Age requirement which extends the Age limit to 64 for former regular members of the US Armed forces so basically nobody male  under the age of 17 or over 45 (64 for ex Forces regulars) thjat is not able bodied or any females not a member of the National Guard   has the right to keep a firearm as by definition in the USC they cannot be a Member of the Militia

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/32/313


--
space reserved for humourous sig file

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8178
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2018, 08:28:18 am »
In this matter, I trust military veterans to have the proper moral compass and training needed for responsible gun ownership.

Really?  Just like police?  Did you read my previous posting about that topic?  So the government should grant itself (remember, military and police are employees and thus part of the government) more rights than the citizens they are suppose to serve?

Quote
Remember the "well regulated militia" aspect of the Second Amendment?

That is a preamble and has nothing to do with the right.  Almost every Constitutional scholar and the Supreme court, agree on that.

Quote
What do any of the wonderful (and not so wonderful) innovations that you enumerated have to do with interfering with the benefits of the Bill of Rights. If the US Constitution is a living document

The the US Constitution is NOT a "living document."  The way it is supposed to change is only through Constitutional Amendment.  Not the whims of the time.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline mikeyw64

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • Country: wales
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2018, 08:36:32 am »


That is a preamble and has nothing to do with the right.  Almost every Constitutional scholar and the Supreme court, agree on that.



The 2nd Amendment as ratified is one sentence. To be preamble it would need to consist of one or more sentences or paragraphs.


However I'm sure somebody wll pop up with the relevant judgements at some point ;)


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Edit

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment
--
space reserved for humourous sig file

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8178
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2018, 08:37:42 am »
Meaningless analogies and I can give trite answers to each of them. You did not answer my question.


Actually, I did.

Quote
Private sales on the internet


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/07/report-federal-agents-try-show-ease-illegal-online-gun-purchases-fail-72-attempts-2-years/
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/3/most-illegal-attempts-to-buy-guns-online-fail/
https://reason.com/blog/2018/01/05/gao-agents-tried-72-times-failed-to-buy

Quote
If a SS recepient (not just a veteran) had their finances being managed due to a mental impairment then they would get flagged. By pushing veterans as the rallying point, the entire "mentally ill" restriction was rolled back?


If a law/procedure/regulation is that fragile/bad/poor/unfair/abusive/unconsitutional then yes, it needs to be rolled back.  Perhaps a different law/procedure/regulation could be put in place.  Many alternatives have been offered, those with appropriate procedures, safeguards, definitions, and due process.

Quote
Ahh.....the familiar slippery slope argument.


Ahh, the familiar dismissal of another, actual example of how a law WAS used incorrectly and DID create a slippery slope.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Rhino

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3963
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2018, 06:20:12 am »
For example, the Las Vegas gunman was able to illegally purchase armor-piercing bullets and the vendor got nabbed only because his fingerprints were found on the shipment.

Do you have a link to this? I'd like to know more about illegal "armor-piercing" .223 bullets. I could be wrong but I don't think such a thing exists. Regular ball ammo might be considered  "armor-piercing" because it doesn't mushroom as much as a hollow point or soft point. And I suppose some states have some sort of ban on them but not Colorado or Texas. I know NJ has a ban on hollow points, but that is the exact opposite of armor-piercing. But don't you gun control types want to ban hollow point as well as "armor-piercing"? Wouldn't that be a total ban on ammunition?

Also, almost any centerfire rifle ammo will penetrate kevlar body armor without military ceramic plates. Therefor wouldn't all hunting ammo be considered "armor-piercing"?

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2018, 06:28:27 am »
Do you have a link to this? I'd like to know more about illegal "armor-piercing" .223 bullets. I could be wrong but I don't think such a thing exists. Regular ball ammo might be considered  "armor-piercing" because it doesn't mushroom as much as a hollow point or soft point. And I suppose some states have some sort of ban on them but not Colorado or Texas. I know NJ has a ban on hollow points, but that is the exact opposite of armor-piercing. But don't you gun control types want to ban hollow point as well as "armor-piercing"? Wouldn't that be a total ban on ammunition?

Also, almost any centerfire rifle ammo will penetrate kevlar body armor without military ceramic plates. Therefor wouldn't all hunting ammo be considered "armor-piercing"?


.223 caliber was the only weapon in Paddock's arsenal?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-las-vegas-shooting-ammunition-seller-20180202-story.html
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2018, 06:34:11 am »
I do not know if this is unique to us "gun control types", but I was sickened to see pics of the PoS from the Parkland shooting being arraigned with his public defender appearing to comfort him with her arm over his shoulder. Is that part of the job or did her maternal instincts kick into high gear?
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline Rhino

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3963
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2018, 06:47:51 am »
.223 caliber was the only weapon in Paddock's arsenal?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-las-vegas-shooting-ammunition-seller-20180202-story.html


Interesting article. I notice they don't give any details of what the armor piercing ammo was. They say something of an "incendiary capsule" on their noses. Tracer bullets have the incendiary charge in the tail which is ignited from the propellent. Yes I have seen .223 tracers. But neither are illegal in Colorado or Texas. Definitely illegal to fire a tracer on all public property due to fire danger. I have fired .50 calibre API "armor piercing incendiary" ammo in Colorado on a private range. There were multiple law enforcement officers there. It's not illegal. I have a lot of questions for the whole article.

This is something I have seen numerous times in the press. Things like "didn't have a license for the gun" and "had explosives in the house". In most states there is no such thing as a license to own a gun. And is perfectly legal to use muzzle loaders which use black powder. Perfectly legal to reload your own ammo using smokeless powder. Perfectly legal to have fertilizer. This is what a lot of lazy reporters do, they setup straw men to push an agenda.

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5542
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2018, 06:49:03 am »
I do not know if this is unique to us "gun control types", but I was sickened to see pics of the PoS from the Parkland shooting being arraigned with his public defender appearing to comfort him with her arm over his shoulder. Is that part of the job or did her maternal instincts kick into high gear?
It looked like she was trying to set the framework for having the killer be perceived as a victim.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline Rhino

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3963
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2018, 06:57:37 am »
I do not know if this is unique to us "gun control types", but I was sickened to see pics of the PoS from the Parkland shooting being arraigned with his public defender appearing to comfort him with her arm over his shoulder. Is that part of the job or did her maternal instincts kick into high gear?

Sickened me as well. I have first hand experience with this behavior. A man that premeditatedly murdered 2 people and a lawyer and social worker fawning over him like he was the victim.  :pukeface: