Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 18219 times)

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4772
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2018, 07:46:46 am »
I believe the way it is being reported, and the wording of the charge against the ammunition seller is leading to incorrect conclusions: as far as I know, he was not charged because the ammunition was armor piercing or tracer types but because he was 'manufacturing and selling ammunition without a manufacturing license', which is illegal in and of itself. So perfectly legal ammunition is illegal if made (loaded or re-loaded) by anyone who is not properly licensed.

As to the AP aspects; military 5.56 AP is perfectly legal for civilian purchase, possession and use, at THIS time. It has been illegal in the past, perhaps during more than one time- period but I am going by memory here. Either way, it is readily available to anyone is the US unless it is illegal in some states. It is readily identified by the green tip of the projectile.

The ammunition seller is an engineer for Honeywell BTW and not what anyone (or most at least) would think of as a criminal but he did violate a technical 'fine line' of the law, has been charged, and will almost certainly be prosecuted because of the nature of the Las Vegas crime. In extreme situations, anyone and everyone around the periphery of the actual event falls under scrutiny and the most intensive persecut..... er, I mean prosecution imaginable. And this has nothing to do with firearms but any event seen as a tragedy, such as 'The Station' nightclub fire, which is just a couple of miles away from me. 

As to the soft-points or hollow-points, I do not <believe> they are legal anywhere in the US with hollow-points commonly used for target shooting, especially long distance target shooting (they are the type of projectile that is the most inherently accurate), and soft point ammunition being used for hunting almost in all cases, at least in rifle calibers.

Brian

Do you have a link to this? I'd like to know more about illegal "armor-piercing" .223 bullets. I could be wrong but I don't think such a thing exists. Regular ball ammo might be considered  "armor-piercing" because it doesn't mushroom as much as a hollow point or soft point. And I suppose some states have some sort of ban on them but not Colorado or Texas. I know NJ has a ban on hollow points, but that is the exact opposite of armor-piercing. But don't you gun control types want to ban hollow point as well as "armor-piercing"? Wouldn't that be a total ban on ammunition?

Also, almost any centerfire rifle ammo will penetrate kevlar body armor without military ceramic plates. Therefor wouldn't all hunting ammo be considered "armor-piercing"?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4772
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2018, 07:56:13 am »
Your second point is not correct- the ammunition was only illegal to be purchased because it was allegedly 'manufactured' (reloaded apparently) by a person who was not licensed to manufacture ammunition. The ammunition itself was and is legal to the best of my knowledge, and would remain perfectly legal had it been reloaded by the end user himself.

As to your third point, yes, the attempt to block S.S. recipients who had their allotments directly sent to someone else on their behalf due to them not being competent or able to receive the payments directly was attacked as 'the government wants to ban guns for the elderly' (or perhaps 'the retired', or even 'those receiving Social Security). It was skewed, and apparently on purpose. The right uses the identical techniques to resist new anti- gun legislation that the left does in trying to get it passed, such as trying to show that some surrounding, related events, such as the purchase of "armor piercing ammunition" is illegal. Same game, different slants.

I agree with your last statement: there is no slippery slope here, just a sheer drop- off into an illegal abyss of unilateral personal disarmament of all citizens. Or were you not addressing the anti- gun agenda?

Brian

Meaningless analogies and I can give trite answers to each of them. You did not answer my question.

Private sales on the internet. For example, the Las Vegas gunman was able to illegally purchase armor-piercing bullets and the vendor got nabbed only because his fingerprints were found on the shipment.

If a SS recepient (not just a veteran) had their finances being managed due to a mental impairment then they would get flagged. By pushing veterans as the rallying point, the entire "mentally ill" restriction was rolled back?

Ahh.....the familiar slippery slope argument.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4772
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2018, 08:11:04 am »
We do not know, no- one knows as far as I can tell. We do not know what the author(s) of that Amendment meant with certainty.

It is a poorly written set of words to be sure though and requires interpretation and 'perceived implication' to actually try and use or apply it.

Some Constitutional scholars claim that the first part of Amendments like the second one (many are written in such ways as to make them confusing as to scope, intent and so forth) is the explanation for its existence while the second part is the actual intent. Others disagree. Some also take it to be applied literally, such as the interpretation of the word 'arms', while others think it has a limited application. Certainly on some level is IS limited because no private person could own 'any' "arms", such as a biological or nuclear device that could be used as a weapon. A wealthy person could certainly afford to purchase an F 22 Raptor, for example, but it is unlikely that that would actually be allowed to happen. Further, if the aircraft <could> be purchased and posessed by a private person, it certainly could NOT be outfitted with a full weapons compliment, especially if any of those weapons might be nuclear. It is usually stated by the umbrella statement that the Constitution (with its Amendments) is not a suicide pact, which of course makes good sense.

At any rate the Second Amendment of our Constitution is most certainly 'infringed' in many different ways starting with the types of 'arms' we can posess, then moving onto who may NOT posess them (felons, those duly adjudicated mentally incompetent, those dishonorably discharged from any US service, etc.) and so forth. So to take the words literally is impossible first because of how they are written, and secondly because that Amendment has effectively been violated many times, in many ways, since 1934 at least (when the National Firearms Act was passed) if not earlier in some locations (carrying a firearm in NYC, for example, has been illegal for a long time now).

We need an entire branch of our government to try an figure out the answers to these questions virtually continuously, and they cannot come to an easy conclusion, in fact, they are usually split 5 to 4 on ANY answer they issue on this topic (speaking of the Supreme Court here).

Brian


That's a very good point that's often overlooked.


So what is the definition of "militia"

"(in the US) all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=militia&oq=militia&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



Ok so maybe a good starting point is to remove weapons from anybody who isn't eligible by law for military service.


That's fully in line with the word & spirit of the second amendment isn't it ?

<snip>

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline mikeyw64

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • Country: wales
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2018, 01:39:32 am »
How sad.


It appears there was uniformed, trained & armed "good guy" on the school Campus who was outside the building and yet did not intervene.


Could  he have made a difference? Well his boss (the Sheriff) seems to think so.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634
--
space reserved for humourous sig file

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5491
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2018, 03:49:34 am »
sad

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
 Martin Luther King, Jr.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2018, 05:13:15 am »
Guess all the goodness drained out of him when he heard the gunfire. Dereliction of duty is the appropriate description here. Early reports are that he had a checkered past in law enforcement. :banghead:
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8014
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2018, 09:58:28 pm »
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/23/serial-failure-heres-how-government-totally-dropped-the-ball-in-stopping-florid-n2453448

Good summary of the so many failures and warning signs.  Cruz might have just as well walked around with a sign saying "I am a ticking time bomb.  Please stop me."  I have no idea how they got that "confidential" Florida Department of Children and Families investigative summary, but it is horrifying (link is in the article).  And that is just ONE document!  There is no way anyone can deny mental illness in this case.

Had our EXISTING policies and laws been enforced properly, this probably would not have happened at all.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5491
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2018, 06:24:58 am »
Does the Broward County Sheriff' Department have a non-engagement policy?
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5752
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2018, 07:37:08 am »
Does the Broward County Sheriff' Department have a non-engagement policy?

It would appear that they do. Now the story is that when the Coral Springs LEOs arrived at the HS that there were 4 Broward Sheriffs outside the school. 3 'taking positions*' behind their squad cars and one 'taking position*' behind building 12.


* aka cowering.
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5491
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2018, 07:42:52 am »
Did none of those 'officers' have children? If they do what do those children think of their fathers now?
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2018, 08:59:53 am »
It would appear that they do. Now the story is that when the Coral Springs LEOs arrived at the HS that there were 4 Broward Sheriffs outside the school. 3 'taking positions*' behind their squad cars and one 'taking position*' behind building 12.


* aka cowering.

What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline turbojoe78

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: us
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2018, 09:54:10 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.

sanmo, I don't think anyone is saying they WANT teachers to carry guns, there saying if there were teachers who want to get trained and carry guns then it might make our children safer.

And whether it's teachers, administrators or janitors, it makes more sense to have them conceal carry.  The kids in class wouldn't even know who was carrying and who wasn't so they wouldn't be "terrified".  Do you walk around terrified everywhere you go?  Next time your out in public, try to guess who is carrying a gun, and who isn't.

And remember ... were out there ... everywhere ... with our guns ... and we will protect you too.   8)

Everyone has there place in society ... the sheep ... the wolves ... and yes ... the sheepdogs ... always on watch, protecting the flock.   Baaa! Baaa!
2014 ZG1400 Concours COG memb# 8645


Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5491
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2018, 10:32:52 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun. Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.
Not really sure about their 'good guy'status.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline VirginiaJim

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10672
  • Country: england
  • I've forgotten more than I'll ever know...
    • Kawasaki 1400GTR
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2018, 10:39:03 am »
Yeah, but it could be that's what they were told or a policy.   We don't know that yet.   But I do know if I knew children we're being harmed I wouldn't be cowering behind vehicles.  I'd be in there trying to save them regardless of the cost.
"LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  08-C14 EA FC ABS 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology (sold).  U.N.I.T is Back!  2016 Indian Roadmaster.

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8014
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2018, 11:35:04 am »
What? Four good guys could not stop one bad guy with a gun.

Um, no, not if they cower outside.  What a ridiculous statement.

Quote
Now they want teachers to pack heat. Recipe for disaster.

No it isn't, not if the person is trained and licensed.  The whole point is that there might already be someone on or IN the scene and ready and with something direct to lose.  And nobody is saying teachers SHOULD [must]  be armed, just that they (and other staff) should have that option on the table (concealed, of course).

Quote
On the bright side, academic achievement scores might go up with students being terrified of their teachers and paying attention to what is being taught.

Nah, they will still spend every waking moment staring at their phones.  And students would have no business knowing who is or isn't armed.  Just knowing there MIGHT be armed, good citizens around (like in most places) would be a major deterrent to choosing lethal activity. 
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II