Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 21928 times)

Offline Conrad

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2018, 06:59:11 am »
Yeah, but it could be that's what they were told or a policy.   We don't know that yet.   But I do know if I knew children we're being harmed I wouldn't be cowering behind vehicles.  I'd be in there trying to save them regardless of the cost.

Since the first LEO, who was cowering behind the building, was immediately suspended, I'm guessing that his actions violated policy.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2018, 07:14:45 am »
sanmo, I don't think anyone is saying they WANT teachers to carry guns, there saying if there were teachers who want to get trained and carry guns then it might make our children safer.

This sounds good in theory, but operationally so many things can go wrong. I really hope that whatever they come up with is effective,

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And whether it's teachers, administrators or janitors, it makes more sense to have them conceal carry.  The kids in class wouldn't even know who was carrying and who wasn't so they wouldn't be "terrified".  Do you walk around terrified everywhere you go?  Next time your out in public, try to guess who is carrying a gun, and who isn't.

How many school teachers, administrators or janitors do you know wear concealing jackets or vests on the daily job? I suppose strapping to the leg is an option though it rules out a large caliber needed to be effective against a maniac with an AR-15. Keeping it in a bag or lockbox has associated problems of unauthorized access.

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And remember ... were out there ... everywhere ... with our guns ... and we will protect you too.   8)

Thanks for the offer of protection, but I'd much prefer if both you and the bad guy left your weapons at home. Getting near a shootout between you warriors just doubles my risk of getting hurt by the crossfire.  :)


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Everyone has there place in society ... the sheep ... the wolves ... and yes ... the sheepdogs ... always on watch, protecting the flock.   Baaa! Baaa!

True, and sometimes the sheepdogs turn out to be just Yorkies or Bichon as in the Parkland tragedy. All bark and no bite.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2018, 08:57:33 am »
This sounds good in theory, but operationally so many things can go wrong.

If you believe that there is a huge crisis in [bad on good] gun violence, then you ALREADY believe "so many things can go wrong."

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How many school teachers, administrators or janitors do you know wear concealing jackets or vests on the daily job?  I suppose strapping to the leg is an option

As is pocket carry, and inside-pant carry, and several other methods.

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though it rules out a large caliber needed to be effective against a maniac with an AR-15.

One doesn't need a "large caliber" gun to be effective on someone in such a school attack.  This isn't a sniper situation.  "Scary-looking rifle" doesn't give the shooter some magical ability.

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Thanks for the offer of protection, but I'd much prefer if both you and the bad guy left your weapons at home.

Fallacy.  Your desire to have a good person leave their weapon at home will do absolutely nothing to compel a bad person to do the same.  If we are going to live in a fantasy, I would much prefer there be no more violence in the world.  Let me know when you have a workable plan for that.  Meanwhile, I much prefer to have options to protect myself and those I care about.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2018, 11:00:37 am »
If you believe that there is a huge crisis in [bad on good] gun violence, then you ALREADY believe "so many things can go wrong."

As is pocket carry, and inside-pant carry, and several other methods.

One doesn't need a "large caliber" gun to be effective on someone in such a school attack.  This isn't a sniper situation.  "Scary-looking rifle" doesn't give the shooter some magical ability.

Fallacy.  Your desire to have a good person leave their weapon at home will do absolutely nothing to compel a bad person to do the same.  If we are going to live in a fantasy, I would much prefer there be no more violence in the world.  Let me know when you have a workable plan for that.  Meanwhile, I much prefer to have options to protect myself and those I care about.

Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".
Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda. You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine, in the aftermath of the Parkland shooting. I am not a medical doctor so I cannot confirm the accuracy of her pathology report, but have no reason to doubt it either.  https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2018, 11:36:46 am »
I do not think I ever said anything about what an AR- 15 looks like. ?? Perhaps you are starting to confuse me and maxtog? Do we 'all look alike' to you?  ;)

I am certainly not confusing you with Charles Rangle (NY) or John Lewis (GA) or Diane Feinstein (CA) though you seem to share a political party.

And I have, and will continue to defend your right to say whatever you want, and further freely admit your thoughts and opinions are as valid as mine or anyone else's.

Brian (not maxtog)

Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".
Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda. You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine, in the aftermath of the Parkland shooting. I am not a medical doctor so I cannot confirm the accuracy of her pathology report, but have no reason to doubt it either.  https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553937/?__twitter_impression=true
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2018, 12:28:45 pm »
Dude, you are getting so sanctimonius in your defense of your weapons collection that you fail to see the subtle humor in "students terrified of gun-toting teachers" or "good guys and bad guys leaving their weapons at home".

I don't find any of it humorous, no.  And  tend not to try and make implied statements veiled as jokes so I can then later state that isn't what was meant.  I am not saying that is what you are doing, I don't know.

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Let me say that your (and BDF's) repeated assertion that the AR-15 type gun is just a "scary-looking rifle" reeks of NRA propaganda.

What I said is that most people have an irrational judgement about the AR-15 because of the way it looks... because it looks "scary" (and it does look scary) and that is true.   There are plenty of other non-military rifles that are just as or even more dangerous than the AR-15, but aren't being targeted (pun intended) because they lack the "look" of an intimidating rifle.  A typical hunting rifle is every bit as dangerous, but it doesn't have the look.

Further, I am not really even a fan of the NRA.  I believe in and support many of their causes, but I am certainly no mouthpiece for them.

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You may have already seen this ER radiologist's essay on the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle with a high capacity magazine

Yes, in fact, I do a lot of research and saw it before your posting.  I don't think it is particularly enlightening or revealing at all.  We all know that rifles are typically much more powerful and deadly than hand guns.  But they are also extremely difficult to conceal and carry and are rarely used in bad-on-good attacks.

Your statement was that you could not defend effectively against an AR-15 with a low caliber gun.  What I said was that was incorrect.  I didn't say or imply a low-caliber handgun was as effective or as deadly as an AR-15.  However, if a mad AR15 gunman burst into a building and started shooting people at close range (as was done in this school shooting), having even a few people shoot at him with ANY caliber weapon could end it quickly.

Would it surprise you to know I don't even own a rifle, and don't plan to?
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2018, 12:32:52 pm »
For many of us this side of the pond the word "Armalite" is synonymous with the Provisional IRA as many AR15s & AR18s were purchased (legally I believe) in the US with funds provided by Irish American Republicans before being smuggled in (illegally) to Northern Ireland on ships such as the QE2.

A little more than scary looking, the AR18 was particularly liked by them for it's stopping power and indeed became known as "The WidowMaker" over here.

Footnote. Am aware that this was not the PIRAs sole source of arms as they got a shedload of them(plush cash) from amongst others the Libyans)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2018, 02:19:39 pm »
If we are going to do down that road, then I will step up and say (type) out loud: the caliber used in the AR-15, 5.56 NATO, is a relatively low power rifle caliber and in fact, far less powerful than many, if not most, pistol calibers. Somehow or other, the standard cartridge used in that rifle has been 'tagged' as some type of 'very powerful' cartridge and it is not, not even close. Not legal to hunt deer with in many states in the US, and absolutely lacking stopping and 'lethality' as compared with other, commonly used pistol and rifle cartridges.

For example, the classic 30-06 Springfield that everybody, starting with great- granddad used and continues to use for hunting, target shooting and typical sporting uses is far, far larger and more powerful than the 5.56 NATO. So is the 7.62 NATO cartridge, which is the same diameter and only very slightly behind the 30-06 in power, still far more powerful than the AR-15 caliber.

5.56 NATO is the standard service rifle caliber currently in use by the US armed forces (standard issue, not sniper rifles, etc.). It is by far the smallest and least powerful service rifle caliber to have been used by the US in a century and most likely, ever in the country's history. In fact, part of the reason it was adopted was its low recoil, the by- product of a low powered cartridge. The standard service cartridge from 1906 through 1957 was the already mentioned 30-06 Springfield, used in several bolt action rifles as well as the M1 Garand, still in wide spread use and in fact a standard target rifle and caliber at many of the largest shooting events in the US. From ~1957 to the mid- 1960's the US armed service standard issue rifle caliber was the 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester, and again it was virtually as powerful as the previous 30-06. Finally, when the AR-15 was adopted, it was adopted in caliber 5.56 NATO, or the equivalent .223 Remington (virtually interchangeable).

So the oft- stated 'legend' of this 'horribly powerful caliber' just is not correct.

The above is fact, but this is conjecture on my part: had the Las Vegas shooting been done with a similar but larger rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO, such as the FN-FAL that is the most widely used service arm in the 'free world' (often called 'the right hand of the Free World'), there would have been more fatalities due to both the increased lethality of the larger (and still standard sporting size) in initial wounds but almost certainly due to greatly increased power of the ricochets off the ground behind the initial victims (a human is almost NEVER NEARLY enough to stop a 7.62 NATO).

We can argue endlessly about many of these issues but the mechanical facts remain facts. The AR-15 is NOT chambered for a 'very powerful' or 'more powerful' caliber than is otherwise typically used in hunting, target shooting and general civilian use but in fact is LESS powerful than MOST calibers typically used by the civilian shooting public.

OK, end of rant.  ::)

Brian


<snip>

Yes, in fact, I do a lot of research and saw it before your posting.  I don't think it is particularly enlightening or revealing at all.  We all know that rifles are typically much more powerful and deadly than hand guns.  But they are also extremely difficult to conceal and carry and are rarely used in bad-on-good attacks.

Your statement was that you could not defend effectively against an AR-15 with a low caliber gun.  What I said was that was incorrect.  I didn't say or imply a low-caliber handgun was as effective or as deadly as an AR-15.  However, if a mad AR15 gunman burst into a building and started shooting people at close range (as was done in this school shooting), having even a few people shoot at him with ANY caliber weapon could end it quickly.

Would it surprise you to know I don't even own a rifle, and don't plan to?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2018, 02:41:33 pm »
For many of us this side of the pond the word "Armalite" is synonymous with the Provisional IRA as many AR15s & AR18s were purchased (legally I believe) in the US with funds provided by Irish American Republicans before being smuggled in (illegally) to Northern Ireland on ships such as the QE2.

A little more than scary looking, the AR18 was particularly liked by them for it's stopping power and indeed became known as "The WidowMaker" over here.

Footnote. Am aware that this was not the PIRAs sole source of arms as they got a shedload of them(plush cash) from amongst others the Libyans)
Are you sure some of the AR18s used during The Troubles didn't come from Sterling in the your own country?
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2018, 03:47:35 pm »
Are you sure some of the AR18s used during The Troubles didn't come from Sterling in the your own country?

Some of them may have been made by Sterling originally, equally some of them may originally have come from Howa in Japan as well as out of the Armalite factory in the US.

Where they were made isn't quite the same thing as where they were bought. :)








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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2018, 04:18:28 pm »
It seems you may be deflecting here a bit. You can say with confidence that none of the British built weapons were sold illegally and floated across the waters? That they all came from the former Colonies or Libya?
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2018, 04:35:49 pm »
I do not think I ever said anything about what an AR- 15 looks like. ??

You are clearly more concerned with what you call assault weapons than handguns, and this unfortunately is an all- too common belief because the assault weapon "looks evil". But statistically, magazine fed auto-loading rifles are virtually insignificant in the instances of undesirable uses of firearms; it is the handgun that causes almost all the firearms related deaths and gunshot wounds in the US. In fact, guess which single model of firearm has the lowest fatality rate in the US of A...... yep, the AR-15 series of rifles.
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Perhaps you are starting to confuse me and maxtog? Do we 'all look alike' to you?  ;)

I am certainly not confusing you with Charles Rangle (NY) or John Lewis (GA) or Diane Feinstein (CA) though you seem to share a political party.

And there it is. The racism that I knew would raise it's ugly head sometime. With some sexism thrown in for cover. Well done.....

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And I have, and will continue to defend your right to say whatever you want, and further freely admit your thoughts and opinions are as valid as mine or anyone else's.

Brian (not maxtog)

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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2018, 04:53:29 pm »

What I said is that most people have an irrational judgement about the AR-15 because of the way it looks... because it looks "scary" (and it does look scary) and that is true.   There are plenty of other non-military rifles that are just as or even more dangerous than the AR-15, but aren't being targeted (pun intended) because they lack the "look" of an intimidating rifle.  A typical hunting rifle is every bit as dangerous, but it doesn't have the look.


I get that the AR-15 is getting a lot of notoriety because it is being used in these high-profile mass casualties. It may very well be underpowered compared to other hunting rifles, but we are not talking about sniper marksmanship here. The targets are in relatively close quarters and you are conveniently ignoring the 50 - 60 round high capacity magazines that wreak havoc in a cluster of panicked individuals. The AR-15 is no more "scary looking" than any of the gobs of semi-automatics at Cabelas or Dicks. If anything the price makes it the saturday night special of semi-automatics.
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Offline lather

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2018, 04:55:44 pm »
A firearm does not have to be powerful to be lethal. I have read some medical accounts to the effect that the 5.56 inflicts massive damage on human tissue realtive to its size. And this reminds me that an AR-15 fan friend of mind once told me that the round is so deadly because it tumbles in flight or on impact. Any truth to that?


If we are going to do down that road, then I will step up and say (type) out loud: the caliber used in the AR-15, 5.56 NATO, is a relatively low power rifle caliber and in fact, far less powerful than many, if not most, pistol calibers. Somehow or other, the standard cartridge used in that rifle has been 'tagged' as some type of 'very powerful' cartridge and it is not, not even close. Not legal to hunt deer with in many states in the US, and absolutely lacking stopping and 'lethality' as compared with other, commonly used pistol and rifle cartridges.

For example, the classic 30-06 Springfield that everybody, starting with great- granddad used and continues to use for hunting, target shooting and typical sporting uses is far, far larger and more powerful than the 5.56 NATO. So is the 7.62 NATO cartridge, which is the same diameter and only very slightly behind the 30-06 in power, still far more powerful than the AR-15 caliber.

5.56 NATO is the standard service rifle caliber currently in use by the US armed forces (standard issue, not sniper rifles, etc.). It is by far the smallest and least powerful service rifle caliber to have been used by the US in a century and most likely, ever in the country's history. In fact, part of the reason it was adopted was its low recoil, the by- product of a low powered cartridge. The standard service cartridge from 1906 through 1957 was the already mentioned 30-06 Springfield, used in several bolt action rifles as well as the M1 Garand, still in wide spread use and in fact a standard target rifle and caliber at many of the largest shooting events in the US. From ~1957 to the mid- 1960's the US armed service standard issue rifle caliber was the 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester, and again it was virtually as powerful as the previous 30-06. Finally, when the AR-15 was adopted, it was adopted in caliber 5.56 NATO, or the equivalent .223 Remington (virtually interchangeable).

So the oft- stated 'legend' of this 'horribly powerful caliber' just is not correct.

The above is fact, but this is conjecture on my part: had the Las Vegas shooting been done with a similar but larger rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO, such as the FN-FAL that is the most widely used service arm in the 'free world' (often called 'the right hand of the Free World'), there would have been more fatalities due to both the increased lethality of the larger (and still standard sporting size) in initial wounds but almost certainly due to greatly increased power of the ricochets off the ground behind the initial victims (a human is almost NEVER NEARLY enough to stop a 7.62 NATO).

We can argue endlessly about many of these issues but the mechanical facts remain facts. The AR-15 is NOT chambered for a 'very powerful' or 'more powerful' caliber than is otherwise typically used in hunting, target shooting and general civilian use but in fact is LESS powerful than MOST calibers typically used by the civilian shooting public.

OK, end of rant.  ::)

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2018, 05:35:27 pm »
I never said an AR-15 was or was not lethal but as you brought it up, it most certainly is often lethal to small to medium sized, thin skinned mammals. My point was and is that the AR-15 is NOT chambered in a very powerful, particularly lethal cartridge, nor even one near the 'middle of the pack' of commonly used firearm calibers for normal, US hunting and target shooting. A typical LEO's .40 S&W, loaded with hollow points and used for a solid torso hit would would be, in my opinion and experience, far more destructive than . 5.56 NATO projectile in the identical place on the identical target, at least at close range (under 100 yards).

No. Another myth perpetuated by.... I have no idea who we have to thank for that one. No firearm purposefully uses a single projectile, long gun or short gun, that tumbles, nor have they ever done so as it would be a particularly ineffective thing to do.

If the bullet 'tumbled' in flight, it would do what is called 'key-holing' in targets (where the perforation is not round but elongated from the projectile passing through on its side.... leaving a penetration that looks like a 'keyhole'). Further, the only way a projectile of any kind can travel appreciable distances, with any accuracy, is if it travel along its axis, any appreciable 'wobble' is hugely detrimental, actual tumbling would effectively ruin the projectile's flight as well as use the projectile's kinetic energy at a fantastic rate, rendering the projectile far less effective in relatively short distances (less than 100 yards and it gets much worse as the distance increases). Please note that I did not say a tumbling projectile was not dangerous, merely that it is never, ever done with conical projectiles from long guns or short guns on purpose.

In fact, the only firearms I have ever seen do this are handguns in large diameter calibers, usually using lead bullets and 'leading' the barrel so badly that the rifling can no longer be seen. By the time tumbling actually occurs, accuracy is so poor that is it often necessary to move to a very short distance (under 10 yards) to the target to even be able to hit something the size of a target. And once that is done, the 'key-holing' obvious (the hole in the target is of a projectile sideways or close to that shape).

High velocity bullets can cause hydrostatic shock but again the AR-15's cartridge is well down in the range where that becomes important regarding lethality. The same .22 caliber projectiles driven from a .220 Swift (obsolescent now), 22-250 or a host of other, readily available and often used sporting calibers will easily add 30% to the projectile's velocity and begin to become effective through sheer velocity rather than velocity coupled with projectile weight and / or bullet wound channel size (caused by expanding bullets, which again, the AR-15 usually does not use although it certainly can). And again, a .30 caliber bullet traveling <nearly> as fast as a .22 caliber bullet will simply do more tissue and especially hard material (bone, cartilage) damage than the smaller bullet as well as penetrate far more.

If you want to read some interesting, in- depth accounts of calibers and their various wounding abilities, read the US gov't reports generated in the 1930's before the 30-06 was re- adopted for use in the then- new M1 Garand. A smaller, faster round was tried with mixed results and in the end rejected (a .276 diameter if memory serves). The reports are truly grisly but what else would one expect when studying gunshot wounds and trying to choose the most effective (read: the most tissue damage w/in reasonable restrictions, meaning that the average person can become proficient with that size caliber) caliber / velocity / projectile type and shape.

All the way back to the topic at hand: I am merely trying to bring some facts to a topic often skewed in one direction or the other by the various factions. All that I have said is easily verified by reputable sources, perhaps most notable the ordnance boards of the various US armed services over the years.

Brian

A firearm does not have to be powerful to be lethal. I have read some medical accounts to the effect that the 5.56 inflicts massive damage on human tissue realtive to its size. And this reminds me that an AR-15 fan friend of mind once told me that the round is so deadly because it tumbles in flight or on impact. Any truth to that?
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