Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 33308 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2018, 07:44:18 am »
There was one of these instances where the local officials refused to use the name of the perpetrator, with the thought of not providing him any kind of gratification. In the big picture, turning these people into pariahs, socially, which they SHOULD already be but somehow do not seem to quite 'make it' would be one of the most beneficial things for everyone IMO.

The 'big picture' is that if a society finds some particular behavior reprehensible then very little of it will actually happen because no individual wants to be 'that' person. This is apparently common in Japan for example, where person hygiene, grooming and general care (especially not being over weight) is considered unacceptable actually works to prevent people from doing or becoming those things.

But it just does not seem that the people who perpetrate these types of horrible social incidents ever get quite to the level of 'horrible human'. And I have no idea why this is. ??

And it does not seem to be an unusual situation in the western world either.

All of that to say that I think it would be of huge benefit and might actually go a long way to eliminate the root of the problem (if no one wanted to be 'that person' who did that horrible thing) but have no idea of how to get an entire society to behave / think that way.

Brian

Some interesting alternatives that I haven't seen discussed here such as "not naming the shooter" and "having 2 doors in every classroom"


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43118865
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2018, 07:48:34 am »
Maybe  policy of not naming for a month then go for a full blown name & shame?


I thought the 2 doors idea had merit.

Ok wouldn't prevent but might help mitigate

There was one of these instances where the local officials refused to use the name of the perpetrator, with the thought of not providing him any kind of gratification. In the big picture, turning these people into pariahs, socially, which they SHOULD already be but somehow do not seem to quite 'make it' would be one of the most beneficial things for everyone IMO.

The 'big picture' is that if a society finds some particular behavior reprehensible then very little of it will actually happen because no individual wants to be 'that' person. This is apparently common in Japan for example, where person hygiene, grooming and general care (especially not being over weight) is considered unacceptable actually works to prevent people from doing or becoming those things.

But it just does not seem that the people who perpetrate these types of horrible social incidents ever get quite to the level of 'horrible human'. And I have no idea why this is. ??

And it does not seem to be an unusual situation in the western world either.

All of that to say that I think it would be of huge benefit and might actually go a long way to eliminate the root of the problem (if no one wanted to be 'that person' who did that horrible thing) but have no idea of how to get an entire society to behave / think that way.

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2018, 08:13:54 am »
Me too, I think both ideas have merit, especially the not naming the perpetrator one. I just do not know how to go about it- free press and all, someone will always print the name and all the other agencies will pick up on that.

And I think it would go a long way toward prevention.

Brian

Maybe  policy of not naming for a month then go for a full blown name & shame?


I thought the 2 doors idea had merit.

Ok wouldn't prevent but might help mitigate
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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2018, 08:31:01 am »
sanmo...which of the following statements do you find most applicable..

A stranger is an enemy until proven to b a friend.

A stranger is a friend until proven to be an enemy.
Statement 2 for sure. You have to be in the first category to advocate concealed carry or open carry of guns. I'm assuming this psych profile is related to the gun debate.

sanmo,  you have absolutely no idea how we who advocate for concealed carry think.  When Gary posted that question to you I wondered how you would answer.  I answered the same as you ... yes, statement #2 is how I look at things.

I bet that most of us on this forum who are CC permit holders, and most in general would answer the same.

You really have no idea at all how we think!
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2018, 08:33:55 am »
 :)
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2018, 09:40:01 am »
sanmo,  you have absolutely no idea how we who advocate for concealed carry think.  When Gary posted that question to you I wondered how you would answer.  I answered the same as you ... yes, statement #2 is how I look at things.

I bet that most of us on this forum who are CC permit holders, and most in general would answer the same.

You really have no idea at all how we think!

I'm glad we think alike in that matter and in our choice of bikes. To help educate me, why do you have a CC permit and presumably carry a gun?
(Will do my best to check in frequently so that this conversation is not too disjointed)
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2018, 10:10:53 am »
Knowing everybody is on edge from the Parkland shootings, what (if anything) should be done with the owner of this?


Offline Rhino

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2018, 12:58:32 pm »
Knowing everybody is on edge from the Parkland shootings, what (if anything) should be done with the owner of this?




Discombobulation at the very least!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2018, 02:48:04 pm »
Standard issue US military magazines are 30 round. Different AR's are sold with different magazines, often MAGPUL plastic magazines of 20 round capacity.

As you pointed out, magazines are available in many different capacities. But the 30 round is most common, by far.

At this time, there is no US federal limit on magazine size anyone can possess or use.

There are also 'oddball' magazines, often rotary, that can and do have much more capacity. But I do not know of any '50' round magazines and I do not believe there are any '60's either. That said, I am not aware of ANY nefarious uses of any AR with the 'oddball' magazines, all that I have see from photographs have been the ubiquitous 30 round, metal, <probably> standard issue magazines.

Our associate (in this conversation) is simply throwing numbers out in his ignorance, believing accuracy not important so '50' and '60' sounds better as a 'sound- bite' than 20 or 30. My point was that there is absolutely no reason to engage him / her on this topic and start doing math with other firearms magazines nor compare what other firearm magazines may hold, how long it takes to change them and so forth. Put simply, this gentleperson is throwing out snippets he / she has picked up from [often also badly informed] news outlets, and he / she is no longer discussing anything, merely taking potshots (pun intended).

But, as always, it IS a free country and all are of course free to go down any verbal path, the gentleperson specified also of course. Carry on.

I do believe the original topic was the tragic high school shooting in Florida on 14 Feb. 2018

Brian


stock up on these....

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ar15-m16-100rd-dual-drum-mag-gen-2-tan



AR style...
also available for the Mini 14  ;)

temporarily out of stock... wonder why?
https://www.classicfirearms.com/mini-14-100rd-dual-drum-mag-for-all-ruger-mini-14-rifles

and of course the "old standby"

https://www.classicfirearms.com/75-rd-rear-loading-ak47-drum-mag-korean

oh, they have been used in nefarious events.... like Aurora... but the mag jammed....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

I guess the folks that survived were lucky that it did...

Charles Whitman comes to mind, when I think about interesting cases...


« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 03:32:26 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2018, 03:15:12 pm »
I know they are available, but I was pointing out that 1) that is not the norm., either on the range or in a mass shooting and 2) have you ever seen any drum type magazine used in a mass shooting?

My comments were directed toward the idea that the 'usual' or 'standard' or 'often found' magazine for an AR-15 holds "50" or "60" rounds, and I disputed that. The large 'commonly used' magazine for an AR-15 is 30 rounds though 20 and 10 round magazines are quite common, especially for things such as shooting off a bench where that long, 30 round magazine really gets in the way.

I would say the same thing about most Glocks: they certainly are 34 round magazines available for them but 1) it is not common. 2) it would make the 'handgun' too large to be useful as a handgun under any normal, rational circumstances, and 3) again I am not aware of anyone using such optional, clearly ridiculously large magazines for either a mass shooting or the usually gang- bangers tinking away at each other on a Friday night. So to argue about "those 34 round Glocks" or "50 or 60 round AR-15's" seems silly to me.

One can probably buy pants (trousers) in size 60 also but that is NOT the norm. though we (Americans) are certainly doing all we can do to work our way up to that.....

Brian


stock up on these....

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ar15-m16-100rd-dual-drum-mag-gen-2-tan



AR style...
also available for the Mini 14  ;)

temporarily out of stock... wonder why?
https://www.classicfirearms.com/mini-14-100rd-dual-drum-mag-for-all-ruger-mini-14-rifles

and of course the "old standby"

https://www.classicfirearms.com/75-rd-rear-loading-ak47-drum-mag-korean
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2018, 03:22:37 pm »
It was probably more the norm in the roaring twenties ;)




I know they are available, but I was pointing out that 1) that is not the norm., either on the range or in a mass shooting and 2) have you ever seen any drum type magazine used in a mass shooting?

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2018, 03:28:44 pm »
And that 100 round Thompson rotary magazine was not the norm for that sub- machine gun either, the 50 round straight magazine was. The round magazine was specifically rejected for military use because it was found to be unreliable.

Brian

It was probably more the norm in the roaring twenties ;)



Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2018, 03:31:53 pm »
A Columbine shooting survivor and current Colorado state representative is pushing to end gun- free school zones so school personnel can be armed.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/19/colorado-congressman-columbine-survivor-pushes-to-end-gun-free-zones-in-schools.html

I merely present this as an interesting idea. As I said before, I have reservations about arming a lot of people in public schools; I am not against it per se but I am wary that the personnel would have sufficient training and practice to do more harm than good.

Brian
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2018, 03:32:48 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/us/aurora-gunmans-lethal-arsenal.html

The drum type magazine used in the Aurora, CO theater shooting.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2018, 03:35:36 pm »
sorry
I was adding this to my original post,
when you posted

oh, they have been used in nefarious events.... like Aurora... but the mag jammed....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting


But mind you, I am all about others not saying I can't own a gun based on it's color, or manufacture, or it's capacity...

I enjoy my firearms....

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2018, 03:36:12 pm »
Yes, it appears you are correct. But in that same article, it says he used that rifle and drum magazine until it jammed. As I said about the Thompson, they tend to be unreliable, so that rather negates the point that such large but unusual magazines are available.

Brian

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/us/aurora-gunmans-lethal-arsenal.html

The drum type magazine used in the Aurora, CO theater shooting.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2018, 03:45:08 pm »
Yes, that is apparently correct but I was not aware of it until it was posted in this thread just a while ago.

But my point in all of this about magazine capacity is really this: if magazine capacity is limited to, say, 10 rounds, what will be the result? In my view, it will not stop these terrible tragedies and miss use of a firearm but it may reduce the number of victims but does that really gut us anywhere. I mean if the number of victims at Sandy Hook was reduced from 26 to, say, 18, would that be considered a 'win'? Would it console the families of the (say) 18 victims that more were not killed due to reduced magazine capacity? If the thought is continued, let us say that 'large capacity' magazines are actually removed, and throw in AR-15's as well. No more AR-15's and no more 20, 30 or other large magazines exist. But these same people will simply use a different tool to do the same thing, and if future events are reduced in number, is that really our goal? Those now calling for banning AR-15s will then call for the banning of the next firearm used in a mass shooting, exactly as happened in Australia. And while some people certainly want all firearms removed from the public's hands, I do not think it will happen anytime in the near future in the US.

I am trying to think about ways to address the problem in its entirely, not reduce the statistical happenings.

Brian

sorry
I was adding this to my original post,
when you posted

oh, they have been used in nefarious events.... like Aurora... but the mag jammed....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting


But mind you, I am all about others not saying I can't own a gun based on it's color, or manufacture, or it's capacity...

I enjoy my firearms....
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2018, 03:45:14 pm »
Some interesting alternatives that I haven't seen discussed here such as "not naming the shooter" and "having 2 doors in every classroom"


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43118865


I actually tend to agree with everything on that list, except #6, which of course, would lead to much higher [ban-on-good] gun violence, overall.  (I would also need exact details on #5 before giving it my thumbs up).

There is absolutely no question in my mind that this shooting was a copy-cat.
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2018, 03:45:49 pm »
sorry
I was adding this to my original post,
when you posted

oh, they have been used in nefarious events.... like Aurora... but the mag jammed....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting


But mind you, I am all about others not saying I can't own a gun based on it's color, or manufacture, or it's capacity...

I enjoy my firearms....

Yeah, my post kept getting blown up because the quote was being altered by you! Good thing, because I had some nasty stuff in there which is best left unsaid.  ;D
Now if the AR-15 is in pink do you think it will be less "scary" or  "evil" looking?  8)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2018, 03:58:21 pm »
I'm glad we think alike in that matter and in our choice of bikes. To help educate me, why do you have a CC permit and presumably carry a gun?

Not addressed to me, but I will ask you questions in return and see what you think:

Why do you wear proper riding gear on a bike?
Why do you wear a seatbelt in a car?
Why do you check both ways before crossing the street?
Why do you read the warning labels on a drug before taking it?
Why do you lock your doors on your house?
Why do you buy life insurance?
Why did you buy a fire extinguisher or have smoke detectors?
Why would you be aware of your surroundings while using an ATM?
Why do you perhaps wash your hands after shaking people's hands or maybe shopping?
Why would you keep your wallet in a secure area and keep it with you at all times?
Why would you put a lock code on your phone?
Why would you not write your passwords on a card you carry?
Why would you carry a spare tire or an inflation kit on your vehicle?
Why would you not want to walk around the neighborhood at night without a phone and flashlight?
Why do you look through your peephole before opening your door?

You don't have to assume everyone is evil or bad or dangerous or that every situation will be negative to take sensible precautions.   A threat might be very rare but also extremely dangerous... or it might be more common and yet less dangerous.  Either way, one might decide to take steps to mitigate those.

The overwhelming majority of the concealed carry permit owners *I* know, are the nicest, most trust-worthy, friendly, moral, and good people I have ever known.
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