Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 18370 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2018, 06:16:09 pm »
I dunno. Allowing carrying in an establishment serving liquor does not sound like a great idea.

So it doesn't matter that I don't drink?  Ever?  So you would ban me from just about every restaurant anyway?  By the way, Virginia is no longer that insane- carrying (with a CCP or not) is perfectly legal where alcohol is served (2010+).  Although you are not legally allowed to carry while drinking alcohol (or otherwise intoxicated/impaired), which is pretty reasonable (since you like the word "reasonable" :) ).

And what about CCP's?  Remember, those are the most responsible, "good" people in the nation, those who have no record of mental illness or drug/alcohol addiction, have never had any felony, who are much more "good" than the police, who have proven they are citizens with a certified address, who have mandated training..... you think those should be banned as well?

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There is a reason even good guys are not allowed to drive drunk.

That is a large jump.  A better analogy would be banning cars anywhere near an establishment serving liquor, maybe?  Does THAT sound reasonable?

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Getting back to the general topic of carrying, let's assume you carry all the time, without fail. Now either every member of your family and other loved ones must also carry a personal firearm or you must accompany them for protection each and everytime they step out of the home.  Which of those is true?

That is a fallacy such as asking someone who did not kill their wife "did you kill your wife with a gun or a knife?"  Obviously this is not an either-or answer.  In your posit, there is no reason why it would HAVE be one way or the other.  Why would there be?

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I personally would have some 'splaining to do if I carried a gun and let my wife and son remain unprotected.

You would be highly paranoid if you believed they could not be allowed out of the house without either being armed or being escorted by someone armed.... unless you lived in a very, very bad area or had reliable knowledge that someone actually was actively trying to target you or your family at that time.

I know there is more risk driving in the snow.... a much higher risk of accident, injury, or death.  I might decide to forego driving to the store due to the snow.  But I might also decide to go anyway.  I might also decide to get a safer vehicle, or put chains on the tires, or have someone with a better vehicle or more experience driving in snow take me.  Life is complicated.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2018, 06:36:36 pm »
ok
here's the list... I went down thru it...
tell us just how many of these occurrences were committed with an AR type rifle....

I think you will be surprised...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

And while reading that list, one should note that:

* The list is ALL shootings, the vast majority with no deaths.
* Some are there even with no injuries of anyone.
* They even included "pellet guns" in that lineup.
* Only a few are "mass shootings."
* Many are not inside the school, but just outside on school grounds or parking lots.

Then add up the numbers and compare to deaths (and/or injuries if you like) of children by self-infliction, drunk drivers, child abuse, food allergies, drugs, fights, poison, fires, bees, car/bike/skating/walking/whatever accidents, and you quickly realize that although such shooting are, of course, very tragic... they are just a blip in the data.

Again, emotion is the fuel driving this, not rational thought.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2018, 06:45:46 pm »
hey Max... :thumbs:
I was pleasently surprised, while living in Va., to find the CC law perfectly fine, when related to establishments that serve alcohol... carrying is a responsibility in it's own, so it pretty much a no brainer allowing someone to carry if they do not/have not consumed on premises..  especially when criminals don't follow laws, and what better place to find MANDATED carry privilege, than in a bar... where dumb people get realllly dumb, and nobody is gonna protect you or your loved ones better than yourself...

 I always found it rediculous to allow "drive thru liquer/alcohol" sales, and the preponderance of allowing every single gas station you pass, to sell carry out alcohol... like someone ain't gonna pop the top before leaving the driveway......  there was a mini store by my house, on rt 30, where beer flowed like number one sales... and the State police, and County sheriff's from 2 adjoining counties, would set up "shop" about a mile down the road from the store.. it was hilarious watching them all pull out, and driving straight into their worst nightmare...

can't fix stupid... :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2018, 06:54:24 pm »
Anybody remember the outcry to ban tomahawks? No? Well, instead of all the hand ringing and panty wadding the local governor put a bounty on the head of the perps. I'll grant you there was a bit of gender inequality in the bounty but it was a substantial income  for an enterprising good guy with a gun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Brown_school_massacre
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #169 on: February 27, 2018, 10:56:49 pm »

The only exception [to thinking about it or obsessing over it] being when I know I will expect to encounter a so-called "gun free" zone.  That totally screws with normality and certainly makes me uncomfortable

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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2018, 06:34:11 am »
I'm glad we think alike in that matter and in our choice of bikes. To help educate me, why do you have a CC permit and presumably carry a gun?
(Will do my best to check in frequently so that this conversation is not too disjointed)

As for bikes, Dad got my brothers and I a Mini Bike when we were young.  (other kids in the neighborhood had them)
From there we went to dirt bikes, then at 19 I got my first street bike, a 1979 Kawi SR650.  (I'm the oldest of the brothers)
I have had one or more bikes since then.

The other kids in the neighborhood also had BB guns so of course we wanted them too.  Dad said we had to be 10 years old before he would get us a BB gun so on our 10th birthdays we got our BB guns and were taught by Dad how to use them safely.
I liked watching the Rifleman and though lever action guns looked great. My first gun at 10 yrs old was a Daisy Champion 99.
We were only allowed to shoot our guns with my fathers supervision until we had shown him through the years that we knew how to use them responsibly.

For my 18th birthday, my Grandfather gave me his Mossberg 22 cal. bolt action target rifle and me and my friends had plenty of woods around and a large sand pit where we could go shooting.

I still have all the guns I have ever owned, I would have all the motorcycles too if I had the space and the money.

I got my CC License to own and carry handguns after what happened at Sandy Hook for 2 reasons.  First because I have seen how little the regard for human life has grown since I was young.  (the worst thing that ever happened in schools back then was kids would get into fist fights.)  Second was I had always wanted to get a hand gun but always seemed to have something more important to be doing and our 2nd Amend right would always be there ... right?  When I applied for my CCL the officer told me about a 82 yr old gentleman who had been in the week before to apply, when he asked him why at 82 did he want a CCL he was told ... "I have been around for 82 years and always believed we would have our 2nd A.R., with the things I am seeing now, I want to make sure I can get it before our rights get taken away"  That's kind of the same reason I got mine then.

As to why I carry, I was a boy scout, there moto is "Be Prepared".  I don't carry looking for trouble, I hope to never find myself in a situation where I'll ever need to resort to having to defend myself with a gun.  But if I ever did find myself in that position I would prefer to "Be Prepared".

I may only get one chance to save my own life, or the life of someone else, if that situation arises, I want to have my best "shot" at going home alive.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2018, 11:19:15 am »
Now our various state legislatures are starting to advance new legislation in response to this school shooting. And this is where the US gets really strange when compared with virtually any other country; we are not doing it on a national level but a state level. This results in some really odd things such as some states are moving toward tighter gun control while other states are moving toward loosening gun restrictions. Florida is talking about moving in both directions at one time: moving toward perhaps banning some firearms and also moving toward making it easy for teachers to arm themselves. California is moving toward much stricter overall gun control of course (some of the most stringent current firearm legislation in the country is in the state of CA). Other states, such as Arizona, Iowa and Wisconsin are moving toward fewer restrictions and / or firearms and shooting protections such as a state constitutional firearm amendment, protecting shooting ranges and similar.

To non- Americans, this must appear beyond strange. To most Americans, I think it appears a little strange but also annoying because no matter which side one is on, some state or other is moving the 'wrong' way.

The US can, of course, legislate on the federal level as well but that is not likely to happen as one political faction controls the Executive and both houses of Congress right now and there is little chance of substantial firearms legislation passing. Of course this can and will change in the future and the 'other' party will control one or more of the three sections mentioned (the President, the Senate and the House of Representatives) and so very different things may then become possible.

Brian
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2018, 11:44:05 am »
Which reminds me:

Did you do any digging into the Redlight laws such as the one coming in in RI?

What happens if the person crosses to a state without any such law? Can they just get a firearm there?

What happens if they go to a State with the same law? Can the judgement in one State apply in another State?


Now our various state legislatures are starting to advance new legislation in response to this school shooting. And this is where the US gets really strange when compared with virtually any other country; we are not doing it on a national level but a state level. This results in some really odd things such as some states are moving toward tighter gun control while other states are moving toward loosening gun restrictions. Florida is talking about moving in both directions at one time: moving toward perhaps banning some firearms and also moving toward making it easy for teachers to arm themselves. California is moving toward much stricter overall gun control of course (some of the most stringent current firearm legislation in the country is in the state of CA). Other states, such as Arizona, Iowa and Wisconsin are moving toward fewer restrictions and / or firearms and shooting protections such as a state constitutional firearm amendment, protecting shooting ranges and similar.

To non- Americans, this must appear beyond strange. To most Americans, I think it appears a little strange but also annoying because no matter which side one is on, some state or other is moving the 'wrong' way.

The US can, of course, legislate on the federal level as well but that is not likely to happen as one political faction controls the Executive and both houses of Congress right now and there is little chance of substantial firearms legislation passing. Of course this can and will change in the future and the 'other' party will control one or more of the three sections mentioned (the President, the Senate and the House of Representatives) and so very different things may then become possible.

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2018, 12:28:44 pm »
I think I misspoke: it is called the 'red flag' law.

Crossing state lines and buying firearms: no, that is illegal but not because of this law, it is against federal law (in most circumstances, exception noted later). No person can purchase a firearm unless he / she is a resident of that state at the time of purchase. So nothing to do with the red flag law, we cannot cross state lines and buy firearms under any circumstances unless one is also a resident of that state also; it is possible for a person to hold 'residence' in more than one state at a time (such as a summer house, vacation house, etc.).

As to the law crossing into other states, no, the law and hence the restriction would not follow into another state. But as written above, one would have to prove residence in any state where one tries to purchase a firearm and that must be physical proof, such as an official I.D. card issued by some state agency, showing a residence as a mailing address in that state, and in some cases, written proof of something such as a utility bill, again showing one's name and a residence as an address in the state one is trying to purchase a firearm in. We are not supposed to have driver's licenses in multiple states at the same time so the way it <could> work would be something such as: I am a RI resident. But if I also owned property in, say, Vermont, I would also be a resident of Vermont also. So if in Vermont, I would use my RI driver's license to prove identity and at the same time present a utility bill with MY name on it showing a valid Vermont residential mailing address and stating that I was, at this moment in time, a resident of Vermont.  The odds that that would happen are pretty remote, and besides, it is extremely unlikely to be used by anyone under 'red flag' restriction to actually purchase a firearm in another state.

If you look at statistics, our (the US) high gunshot wound numbers are NOT the result of long guns (rifles and shotguns) but the result of handguns. Further, the huge majority of our nefarious handgun deaths, such as those in sections of large cities that are gang and or drug related are done with ILLEGAL firearms in the first place. So the finer points of a possible work- around or duping of actual laws is not now and never has been a problem of any amount. It has always been a problem of those having already committed at least one felony in the first place to even have possession of the firearm. Which is why most people find the idea of 'gun free' zones a farce to begin with because someone who is going to shoot a rival gang member with an illegally possessed firearm in the first place certainly will not be slowed down in the least if potentially facing another, relatively minor felony in addition to the major felonies he / she is about to commit. It would be similar to making a law that makes it illegal to smoke in a car that one stole; if a person has already committed a significant felony by stealing a car, why in the world would that person suddenly be put off in the least about going right ahead and sparking up a smoke while making the getaway?

Brian

Which reminds me:

Did you do any digging into the Redlight laws such as the one coming in in RI?

What happens if the person crosses to a state without any such law? Can they just get a firearm there?

What happens if they go to a State with the same law? Can the judgement in one State apply in another State?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2018, 12:30:23 pm »
Which reminds me:

Did you do any digging into the Redlight laws such as the one coming in in RI?

What happens if the person crosses to a state without any such law? Can they just get a firearm there?

What happens if they go to a State with the same law? Can the judgement in one State apply in another State?

This is actually complicated.  Technically, you can't just buy a gun out of state dealer.  It has to go through an FFL.  So you would have to get it transferred to an FLL in your home state (they will know this when they do a mandatory background check) and they will finish the transaction, after a background check.  And they must follow the laws of your home state.

If you are talking about carrying, the moment you step foot in another state, you must comply with that state's laws.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2018, 12:37:43 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

lots of terms here being "surmised"...
Red flag? Red Light?

I'm thinking it's the section relating to "Peacable Journey", which means transporting thru various states... but I may be wrong...

anyways, it is pretty much always based on state by state laws, and many of which just defer to Fed Law, as generically they didn't want to subject time to it

Oh, My understanding of "Red Flag" law, is :
"the rights of the Police, to disarm, and hold firearms from anyone they deem questionable, for the purpose of further examination of said person"...
.... and to return said firearm, or retain it permanently, based on the outcome of the persons identity, or status within the realms of the specific state they are in when approached/questioned/flagged.

I think Washington State, Indiana, Connecticut, are states with the Red Flag law currently...Corrected to add others
defined as:
"The police may temporarily take guns away from people a judge deems a threat to themselves or others."

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2018, 12:40:40 pm »
He meant can one cross a state line and purchase a firearm in that (new) state. And the answer is generally no (prevented by federal law) but rarely yes (someone has legal residence in two different states at one time).

What you are talking about is transferring (as in buying or selling) a firearm legally between two people in two different states. And the path for that takes two FFL (Federal Firearms License, not easy to get and those holding them are well vetted beforehand, and they are issued by the federal gov't, not any state) license holders, one in each state. It works like this: I find a firearm for sale in a different state that I want to purchase. I make the monetary transaction (pay for it, as well as the additional FFL and shipping fees) and the current owner takes the firearm to a licensed FFL who takes possession of the firearm, leaves a paperwork trail (required by law), then sends the firearm to the FFL of my choice, in my state. I then go to my FFL, pay any state sales tax, fill out both federal and state paperwork on said firearm, get a background check and if required in my state, wait the mandatory period (10 days in RI) an can then take possession of the firearm from my FFL holder (usually a gun store but not always, can also be a gunsmith, gun manufacturer, etc.).

And so yes, there is a method in place that is legal but properly vets the firearm purchaser. And contrary to some groups' claims, one cannot buy a firearm 'from the Internet' and skip any of these steps.

Brian

This is actually complicated.  Technically, you can't just buy a gun out of state dealer.  It has to go through an FFL.  So you would have to get it transferred to an FLL in your home state (they will know this when they do a mandatory background check) and they will finish the transaction, after a background check.  And they must follow the laws of your home state.

If you are talking about carrying, the moment you step foot in another state, you must comply with that state's laws.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2018, 12:48:05 pm »
Our Red Flag law was repealed in 1896 ;)

I think I misspoke: it is called the 'red flag' law.

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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #178 on: February 28, 2018, 03:36:52 pm »
Now our various state legislatures are starting to advance new legislation in response to this school shooting. And this is where the US gets really strange when compared with virtually any other country; we are not doing it on a national level but a state level. This results in some really odd things ...

I don't think it's odd. Heck it's the law, and it even has a title: States' rights. I live in FL, and just because our neighbors in Alabama think about a certain issue one way doesn't mean we Floridians have to follow suit.

For example, we don't think inbreeding is a good idea.

Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2018, 03:48:38 pm »
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So it doesn't matter that I don't drink?  Ever?  So you would ban me from just about every restaurant anyway?  By the way, Virginia is no longer that insane- carrying (with a CCP or not) is perfectly legal where alcohol is served (2010+).  Although you are not legally allowed to carry while drinking alcohol (or otherwise intoxicated/impaired), which is pretty reasonable (since you like the word "reasonable" :) ).

Congrats on being a teetotaler. However, there are health benefits to an occasional drink, probably from making the subject less uptight.  :)
Yes , many states now let CCP carry in liquor serving establishments so long as alcohol is not being imbibed. That seems a reasonable accommodation, similar to a designated driver for drinking buddies. Letting an intoxicated person carry a gun or drive a car is a bad idea whether it a good guy or bad guy (or gal).

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And what about CCP's?  Remember, those are the most responsible, "good" people in the nation, those who have no record of mental illness or drug/alcohol addiction, have never had any felony, who are much more "good" than the police, who have proven they are citizens with a certified address, who have mandated training..... you think those should be banned as well?

Unnecessary, over the top pandering. Just because a person has undergone CCP qualification does not make them"good" people or that they will stay "good" the rest of their lives.

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That is a large jump.  A better analogy would be banning cars anywhere near an establishment serving liquor, maybe?  Does THAT sound reasonable?

I'm not even sure where this came from.

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That is a fallacy such as asking someone who did not kill their wife "did you kill your wife with a gun or a knife?"  Obviously this is not an either-or answer.  In your posit, there is no reason why it would HAVE be one way or the other.  Why would there be?

You would be highly paranoid if you believed they could not be allowed out of the house without either being armed or being escorted by someone armed.... unless you lived in a very, very bad area or had reliable knowledge that someone actually was actively trying to target you or your family at that time.

lol. Nobody asked if you killed your wife. Simply put, if you need the protection of a firearm, even if just a precaution, why doesn't your family deserve the same protection? Don't dwell on this. I suspect that not too many CCP holders can answer that question logically either.

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I know there is more risk driving in the snow.... a much higher risk of accident, injury, or death.  I might decide to forego driving to the store due to the snow.  But I might also decide to go anyway.  I might also decide to get a safer vehicle, or put chains on the tires, or have someone with a better vehicle or more experience driving in snow take me.  Life is complicated.

The debate seems to have gone completely off the rails by this point. Anyway since you are a good sport, are you ready for one more question?
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