Author Topic: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting  (Read 32443 times)

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #200 on: March 05, 2018, 01:52:49 pm »

Typically this happens in individual states and never on a national level.
ta, that's pretty much what I said/thought ;)
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #201 on: March 05, 2018, 01:54:16 pm »
Ta,

maybe someone should Propose  an Amendment ;)


I believe that is correct. We cannot even vote on a national level for national things such as the office of the President. It is always 'the several states' that actually control our 'national' votes.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #202 on: March 05, 2018, 02:38:24 pm »
OFFTOPIC: Very quickly, we elect our presidents through the states voting. The state vote (called the Electoral vote) and the popular vote usually coincide. But every now and then, they do not; the popular vote is for the other candidate but the electoral (states) vote is the one that is always used. This happened in 2000 and again in 2016. When it does happen, a huge ruckus starts because 1) most Americans do not know how the system works and are surprised that this can even happen and 2) the losing side is REALLY riled up because they actually carried the popular vote. So there is a flurry of action to 'fix' this problem (alter our system). But that takes a lot of work that no one wants to do and the public is fickle and soon enough is not interested in that anymore. So it fizzles out and we carry on.... until the next time it happens.

It would be very straightforward to alter so we can actually do a national majority vote for some, limited federal- level things such as the office of the President but that is not likely to ever happen.

And fixing the electoral system would be hugely easier than altering any of the first ten amendments to the Constitution.....  ;)

Brian

Ta,

maybe someone should Propose  an Amendment ;)
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #203 on: March 05, 2018, 02:40:56 pm »
Is the electoral system broken?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #204 on: March 05, 2018, 03:40:50 pm »
Back to your idea of altering the Constitution for a moment; yes, it is possible and has been done in the past but never for such fundamental things as already specified rights w/in the Constitution or existing Amendments. With the one glaring exception of prohibition but that was really just a bad idea being erased a mere 13 years after it was passed in teh first place. I do not believe we will see the removal or even alteration of any of the first ten Amendments (often called The Bill of Rights) in the foreseeable future.

Although it is possible, it is inconceivable that any admendment would ever pass that would interfere with the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments, that are practically part of the original document).  Personally, I think that would indicate a total failure of the whole American experiment.

BTW am I correct in saying that the USA doesn't have the ability/due process to allow for a national referendum (as we had with Brexit) where each person gets to vote on something at a national level?

I don't believe such a thing exists.  Although there is nothing to prevent legislation that could call for a referendum of that type.  Still, not sure it would be a great idea.  Direct government by the people is historically a disaster.  Most "normal" people typically do not have the time, skills, or knowledge to really understand a problem to the point of voting intelligently about it.  That is why we have a representative republic.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #205 on: March 05, 2018, 03:47:19 pm »
And fixing the electoral system would be hugely easier than altering any of the first ten amendments to the Constitution.....  ;)


What is far, far more broken here is not the electoral system, but the actual "first past the post" voting system.  If there was ever any ONE thing that needs changing, that would be the thing.  And it can be done, because States can choose to do it without any need for swaying the whole country.  We wouldn't need any change to the Federal Constitution, either.  I don't think it would even touch most of the States' Constitutions.

http://fairvote.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

Before computers, such a system of instant runoff voting would not have been practical.  But now it would be trivial.  And it is needed in primaries just as much as in actual elections.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #206 on: March 05, 2018, 03:59:47 pm »
OFFTOPIC: The Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution, were ratified at the same time as the Constitution itself and so are, in reality, part of the Constitution, at least in my [unlearned] view and understanding.

Going by memory here: it was part of a deal between the northern and southern states to ratify the Constitution in the first place. Some very powerful Southerners (Virginians I believe) were opposed to the Constitution as written because there were no or insufficient guarantees in it to prevent the reforming of a monarchy, or to prevent a handful of heavily populated states (the northern states at that time) from gaining control of the entire federal gov't. An additional provision of this 'deal' was locating the capital of the US in the southern states as it was originally in New York (a northern state). The northern states would not agree to the 'southern state' placement, hence the creation of Washington, DC, which while an independent district of the US, was originally part of Virginia and clearly in "the south".

As any of this applies to the topic at hand: I think we can all agree, there will be no alteration of The Bill of Rights in the foreseeable future.

Brian

Although it is possible, it is inconceivable that any admendment would ever pass that would interfere with the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments, that are practically part of the original document).  Personally, I think that would indicate a total failure of the whole American experiment.

<snip>

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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #207 on: March 05, 2018, 04:05:07 pm »
Apologies, there was me stating quire clearly that you do have a Constitutional right to bear Arms for the purposes of maintaining a well regulated Militia

The reason we are reacting negatively is that you have essentially said the ONLY reason to have gun rights is to maintain militias.  And that is not what the Amendment says (to those who understand the context of what was written).

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The first sentence is not a directive nor a requirement for the second sentence.  It is just a preamble that seeks to give a reason why the second sentence is so important.  The key word here is "people."  Not militia.  "People" are all the citizens.  Had they meant it otherwise, it might have been worded more like:"

"A well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of militias to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Quote
How does that make me anti gun?
#confused

If you believe what I interpreted is what you said, then you believe that gun rights exist ONLY and SOLELY for militia use.  And that is in direct conflict with the rights of individuals to be armed outside of a militia.  And that is, most assuredly, an anti-gun-rights stance.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #208 on: March 05, 2018, 10:53:20 pm »
OFFTOPIC.Speaking of the South, you guys still have the Corwin Amendment, which would have forever preserved slavery in those states where it was legal in 1861 and which was tabled to try & prevent the Civil War, on the books.

Now as stated there is no time limit on Ratification and whilst I accept the 27th was an exception (taking 200+ years to ratify and then only following a schoolkids essay which brought it to peoples attention) in theory this Amendment could still be passed even today.

OFFTOPIC: The Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution, were ratified at the same time as the Constitution itself and so are, in reality, part of the Constitution, at least in my [unlearned] view and understanding.

Going by memory here: it was part of a deal between the northern and southern states to ratify the Constitution in the first place. Some very powerful Southerners (Virginians I believe) were opposed to the Constitution as written because there were no or insufficient guarantees in it to prevent the reforming of a monarchy, or to prevent a handful of heavily populated states (the northern states at that time) from gaining control of the entire federal gov't. An additional provision of this 'deal' was locating the capital of the US in the southern states as it was originally in New York (a northern state). The northern states would not agree to the 'southern state' placement, hence the creation of Washington, DC, which while an independent district of the US, was originally part of Virginia and clearly in "the south".

As any of this applies to the topic at hand: I think we can all agree, there will be no alteration of The Bill of Rights in the foreseeable future.

Brian
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #209 on: March 05, 2018, 11:03:38 pm »
The reason we are reacting negatively is that you have essentially said the ONLY reason to have gun rights is to maintain militias.  And that is not what the Amendment says (to those who understand the context of what was written).

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The first sentence is not a directive nor a requirement for the second sentence.  It is just a preamble that seeks to give a reason why the second sentence is so important.  The key word here is "people."  Not militia.  "People" are all the citizens.  Had they meant it otherwise, it might have been worded more like:"

"A well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of militias to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

If you believe what I interpreted is what you said, then you believe that gun rights exist ONLY and SOLELY for militia use.  And that is in direct conflict with the rights of individuals to be armed outside of a militia.  And that is, most assuredly, an anti-gun-rights stance.

Let's be honest, nobody knows what was in the minds of the people who drew up the original US Constitution other than the words they left behind and they're open to interpretation.

If the same thing was drawn up today , in a world where public opinion and communications are so much different then would the wording have been made more precise? (although that leads to it's own problems)

Yes it may be classed as preamble but it sets the scene. It doesn't start off by saying " For the purposes of allowing home defence," or  "For the purposes of preventing the Government suppressing the People,"

NB its not a separate sentence, its part of the bigger sentence as it is separated by a comma not a full stop (or period). The Second amendment is one sentence.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #210 on: March 06, 2018, 06:24:39 am »
Agreed, many parts of the Constitution are vague, and many thing are simply not addressed by the Constitution at all (an entire area of study unto itself- what does it mean when something is [not in] the Constitution). But the writers of the documents are well known by other writings, and I believe one can easily get a sense or overall feeling as to the intention of each section of those documents. Personally, I find too much emphasis on a single word, or word order, etc. when a slightly more distant view actually works better to get the 'flavor' of what was written and especially, ratified by 'the people'.

The documents are now so dated that they must be interpreted and the ideas and ideals in them applied, not taken literally. For example: does one have a right to expect private communication when using e-mail? What did the 'founding fathers' think of e-mail and its use? That is why we have a Supreme Court, to deliberate over these things and fit the ideals into the current world. And overall, I think they do an outstanding job of it though many of their more middle- of- the- road judgments leave both sides of some issues unhappy (abortion, not gun control, comes immediately to mind as an example of that).

At this point in time, no one has any chance of wiping out the second Amendment of our Constitution. All of the arguments are about the finer points of it: does 'bear' mean carry around in a shopping mall? In some states it does, in some states it does not. What exactly is an 'arm' as referenced by 2A? Is it anthrax or never gas? No, and no one is arguing or fighting to get those included. No, our arguments are on much finger points such as can magazine size be limited? Should it be limited? Are some types of firearms that are functionally identical to other types to be singled out and withheld from the general public? These are the questions of today, not whether or not we should have a 2A or if it applies to individuals or 'militias'.

Brian

Let's be honest, nobody knows what was in the minds of the people who drew up the original US Constitution other than the words they left behind and they're open to interpretation.

If the same thing was drawn up today , in a world where public opinion and communications are so much different then would the wording have been made more precise? (although that leads to it's own problems)

Yes it may be classed as preamble but it sets the scene. It doesn't start off by saying " For the purposes of allowing home defence," or  "For the purposes of preventing the Government suppressing the People,"

NB its not a separate sentence, its part of the bigger sentence as it is separated by a comma not a full stop (or period). The Second amendment is one sentence.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2018, 04:21:41 pm »
Agreed, many parts of the Constitution are vague, and many thing are simply not addressed by the Constitution at all (an entire area of study unto itself- what does it mean when something is [not in] the Constitution).

Actually, that is addressed pretty clearly in the Bill of Rights as Amendment 10:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So anything not specifically given to the Fed (or denied the States) is a power of the States or the People (citizens).  The tricky part is figuring out what exactly IS given to the Fed in the document.   IMHO- most of the Federal laws on the books are probably not at all Constitutional if the principles were applied "correctly".  The Fed was supposed to be VERY small, with VERY limited powers.  Perfect example- ANYTHING in the Fed that has to do with education or health care is clearly State powers, not Federal.  I believe the founding Fathers, even given years of background and history and context of today, would STILL be horrified by what the Federal government has become.

Quote
But the writers of the documents are well known by other writings, and I believe one can easily get a sense or overall feeling as to the intention of each section of those documents.

Exactly.  That greatly helps putting it into context.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #212 on: March 06, 2018, 04:39:42 pm »
Spent this afternoon at my State House, 'standing up' for the cause regarding new bills being introduced into both houses (State Senate, State House of Representatives). Excellent Pro 2A (Pro- Second Amendment, in other words, pro- gun for those not in the US or familiar with the cryptic term) turnout, clogged up the works pretty well and several people involved told me the turnout was better than 10:1 on the pro- 2A side. We will see.....

I might even be on the news as I was standing right next to a gentleman who had a particularly antagonistic sign he was holding up. We are on the same side of the issue but I really do not think being antagonistic or worse yet, threatening, is the best way forward. His sign was absolutely the former and a bit of the latter and I honestly doubt it will win many 'hearts and minds' of those in the middle on this issue. Just my opinion of course.

Of course all this legislation is to limit / remove firearms in some way or another. It is now 6 March, closing in on four weeks since the FL school shootings and to the best of my knowledge, there has been no large scale, concerted effort to make public schools in the US any safer. Firearms legislation <may> work at some point in the future but limited access and screening of everyone entering a public school would ALREADY be working had there been a serious effort in that direction. And by serious, I mean federally sanctioned, federally posted guidelines on how to do it and federal direction and financial underwriting of such a thing. But here we are.....

Brian
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2018, 04:49:40 pm »
Spent this afternoon at my State House, 'standing up' for the cause regarding new bills being introduced into both houses (State Senate, State House of Representatives). Excellent Pro 2A (Pro- Second Amendment, in other words, pro- gun for those not in the US or familiar with the cryptic term) turnout, clogged up the works pretty well and several people involved told me the turnout was better than 10:1 on the pro- 2A side. We will see.....

I [and many others] do the same thing every year at the General Assembly (VA).  There it is more like 100:1 on the pro-2A rights side.  We completely swarm the building- and CCP's are allowed to carry there, too.  But it is always a continuous fight.  It takes but a blink of an eye for rights to disappear or erode to nothing.  Getting rights back later is always a LOT more difficult than keeping them in the first place.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #214 on: March 07, 2018, 12:49:23 am »
Be interesting to see if the "March for Our Lives" on 24th March will sway anyone/lead to further changes?


Yes I know that everytown (who are part of this along with the NeverAgain movement)  are  the polar opposite to you guys in the NRA and that many of you you disapprove of them but they do have exactly the same Constitutional rights to express themselves as you do.

Also aware that many people claim that Cameron Kasky etc may be "plants" , I have no idea. WHat I do know is that kids these days are far more savvy and have grown up with social media more and it is the youth that will eventually decide what their future will be.


 

Of course all this legislation is to limit / remove firearms in some way or another. It is now 6 March, closing in on four weeks since the FL school shootings and to the best of my knowledge, there has been no large scale, concerted effort to make public schools in the US any safer. Firearms legislation <may> work at some point in the future but limited access and screening of everyone entering a public school would ALREADY be working had there been a serious effort in that direction. And by serious, I mean federally sanctioned, federally posted guidelines on how to do it and federal direction and financial underwriting of such a thing. But here we are.....

Brian
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2018, 05:13:57 pm »
March 20:  "Good Guy with Gun Opened Fire on MD High School Shooter, Ended Threat"

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/20/good-guy-gun-opened-fire-md-high-school-shooter-end-threat/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/20/shooting-at-great-mills-high-school-in-maryland-school-confirms.html

And then, the ultra-left CNN version; full of emotion, sad quotes, and the obligatory focus on how it is [supposedly] the 17th "shooting" this year [probably using their creative definitions], and student protests, cute catch phrases, calls to action, and all kinds of thing that have nothing to do with the story but everything to do with their "agenda spin":

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/us/great-mills-high-school-shooting/

Didn't bother with NYT/Washing Post, but I would expect the same thing.
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Offline gPink

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2018, 06:21:56 pm »
...and wtf is a 'resource' officer? Are they so PC they won't say cop or guard or armed hall monitor?
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Offline sanmo

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2018, 06:32:55 pm »
March 20:  "Good Guy with Gun Opened Fire on MD High School Shooter, Ended Threat"

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/20/good-guy-gun-opened-fire-md-high-school-shooter-end-threat/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/20/shooting-at-great-mills-high-school-in-maryland-school-confirms.html

And then, the ultra-left CNN version; full of emotion, sad quotes, and the obligatory focus on how it is [supposedly] the 17th "shooting" this year [probably using their creative definitions], and student protests, cute catch phrases, calls to action, and all kinds of thing that have nothing to do with the story but everything to do with their "agenda spin":

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/us/great-mills-high-school-shooting/

Didn't bother with NYT/Washing Post, but I would expect the same thing.



So you want the news report to duplicate a very clinical police report, without any human interest or background stuff. Breitbart was terse as per your specifications, but apparently the Fox News report did not get the memo. Oops..... :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2018, 06:59:36 pm »
So you want the news report to duplicate a very clinical police report, without any human interest or background stuff. Breitbart was terse as per your specifications, but apparently the Fox News report did not get the memo. Oops..... :)


It doesn't have to be terse and cold like Breitbart, but not swilling in emotional blather and agenda like CNN.  The Fox report stuck to facts and things involved in the incident.  It was informative, rational, and to the point... it is news.  The CNN report was quite the opposite.  My point in sharing was not just to highlight the fact that "it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun", which is absolutely true, but also to show just how severely slanted certain media is at "news."

You might find this interesting too- same FL school as one of the deadliest mass shootings in history, students just arrested for bringing in knives, pulling them on each other, all the while the "resource officer" was sleeping in his car.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/20/stoneman-douglas-students-arrested-for-knives-deputy-suspended-for-sleeping-on-job.html

Of course, that isn't to be found on CNN at all, because it doesn't fit their agenda and narrative.  You won't find it on NYTimes either.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: 14 Feb 2018 FL school shooting
« Reply #219 on: March 21, 2018, 06:12:25 am »
...and wtf is a 'resource' officer? Are they so PC they won't say cop or guard or armed hall monitor?


Sheriff's deputy and member of the local swat team.  You can call them whatever you want but this one didn't cower outside the building.  I think that they call them that here in VA as well.   What do they call them where you live Gary?  This incident occurred across the river (Potomac) and over to the east of me.   Unlike FL, this sh*thead (shooter) only had a Glock.   Now trying to figure out where he got it from.
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