Author Topic: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!  (Read 1691 times)

Offline Dualsport

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Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« on: February 16, 2018, 11:39:03 am »
I recently obtained heated gear and have been riding in weather below 20 degrees F. Heated gear bulk, generally speaking, is not conducive to going low or wanting to ride aggressively. I did 3,800 uneventful miles--THEN last week while making a left at an intersection the rear tire broke traction. Initially I thought sand, oil, etc. whatever, but it's happened two more times since. The latter two times I stopped and inspected the tires and the road for obvious causes, but could not find a cause. At this point all I can conclude is that the cold pavement and stiffer tire rubber is a lot more dangerous than I predicted it would be. In all cases the tires had been warmed as indicated by increased indicated tire pressure readings. I know about tires, tire and road conditions, and the effects of the cold on tire rubber and I'd just like to pass on that this loss of traction during even a moderately tight turn may be more of a concern and problem than one might think, so be careful in the cold ya'll.

Offline harry76

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 11:57:13 am »
I have found the older a tire gets the worse it is on cold roads, they seem to get harder after being heat cycled several times.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 01:26:50 pm »
Yeah, when it is cold (below 30F) it is easy to break the rear tire loose under even modest acceleration. Cold roads and cold tires are NOT conducive to aggressive riding. I always ride like Mary Jane Tinklepants when it is cold outside.

And as bad as asphalt roads are, cement roads are even worse. Here in the northeast US, we have a fair amount of concrete roads with dark 'stripes' of years of oil accumulation in the center of each lane and they get downright treacherous making a left hand turn through multiple lanes even on a dry, clear and sunny but cold day.

Brian

I recently obtained heated gear and have been riding in weather below 20 degrees F. Heated gear bulk, generally speaking, is not conducive to going low or wanting to ride aggressively. I did 3,800 uneventful miles--THEN last week while making a left at an intersection the rear tire broke traction. Initially I thought sand, oil, etc. whatever, but it's happened two more times since. The latter two times I stopped and inspected the tires and the road for obvious causes, but could not find a cause. At this point all I can conclude is that the cold pavement and stiffer tire rubber is a lot more dangerous than I predicted it would be. In all cases the tires had been warmed as indicated by increased indicated tire pressure readings. I know about tires, tire and road conditions, and the effects of the cold on tire rubber and I'd just like to pass on that this loss of traction during even a moderately tight turn may be more of a concern and problem than one might think, so be careful in the cold ya'll.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Dualsport

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 07:42:43 pm »
I’m running Shinkos. Does anyone think that the “softer” “sportier” tires may just get harder in the cold than other more “all season” tires? I run Anakee III’s on my KLR 650 and I Ride it more aggressively than I do the C14 in the intersection cornering. So many differing factors between the two bikes, but it’s all unnerving enough to get me pondering...

Offline harry76

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 07:25:26 am »
I have performance summer tires on my car, they warn against driving in temps below 45 degrees because the rubber gets hard, and say the rubber will actually crack  open if used below 20 degrees.
I would assume that performance bike tires are a similar rubber compound.

Summer performance tires feature tread compounds engineered to provide traction in warm to hot ambient temperatures. They were never intended to experience near- and below-freezing temperatures, nor the wintry driving conditions that often accompany them.

As ambient temperatures get colder, typically in the 40-45° Fahrenheit range, summer performance tires lose a noticeable percentage of traction as their tread compound rubber properties change from a pliable elastic to inflexible plastic. The tire industry uses the term "glass transition" to describe the temperature where a summer performance tire's grip/slip performance changes dramatically. This means the summer performance tires that provide predictable traction in warm to hot conditions will be found to be very challenging to drive in cold to freezing temperatures. This is especially true when the tires first begin to be driven or if the driver aggressively applies gas pedal pressure with today's turbocharged fours or high-torque sixes and eights. Fortunately, glass transition is a reversible condition that allows the tires' normal traction to return as the ambient temperatures climb.

If ambient temperatures drop to near- or below-freezing, driving or rolling a vehicle equipped with summer performance tires risks the possibility of tread compound cracking. Tread compound cracking is a permanent condition that requires the tires to be replaced. The other condition that can be caused by running summer performance tires in cold temperatures is the possibility of chipping away the edges of the tread blocks.

Offline Dualsport

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 11:35:02 am »
Thanks harry76, I did not know of this, but I’m witnessing its validity. Would they even make a cold weather tire that would fit the C14? Not many kooks like me that ride in the really cold, and I don’t know that there’d be enough market. Maybe purchasing heated gear wasn’t such a good idea.

Offline Dualsport

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 09:13:50 am »
I have performance summer tires on my car, they warn against driving in temps below 45 degrees because the rubber gets hard, and say the rubber will actually crack  open if used below 20 degrees.
I would assume that performance bike tires are a similar rubber compound.

Summer performance tires feature tread compounds engineered to provide traction in warm to hot ambient temperatures. They were never intended to experience near- and below-freezing temperatures, nor the wintry driving conditions that often accompany them.

As ambient temperatures get colder, typically in the 40-45° Fahrenheit range, summer performance tires lose a noticeable percentage of traction as their tread compound rubber properties change from a pliable elastic to inflexible plastic. The tire industry uses the term "glass transition" to describe the temperature where a summer performance tire's grip/slip performance changes dramatically. This means the summer performance tires that provide predictable traction in warm to hot conditions will be found to be very challenging to drive in cold to freezing temperatures. This is especially true when the tires first begin to be driven or if the driver aggressively applies gas pedal pressure with today's turbocharged fours or high-torque sixes and eights. Fortunately, glass transition is a reversible condition that allows the tires' normal traction to return as the ambient temperatures climb.

If ambient temperatures drop to near- or below-freezing, driving or rolling a vehicle equipped with summer performance tires risks the possibility of tread compound cracking. Tread compound cracking is a permanent condition that requires the tires to be replaced. The other condition that can be caused by running summer performance tires in cold temperatures is the possibility of chipping away the edges of the tread blocks.
So, I contacted Michelin Tire USA - Motorcycle Tire Division, and here's their reply.
"We appreciate your interest in putting Michelin tires on your Kawasaki, Curt. However, unfortunately, Michelin does not produce a motorcycle tire suited to such extreme cold weather conditions, we apologize for the inconvenience."
I obtusely assumed that my tires would work in temps below 32 degrees F, albeit with the "projected lesser cold-tire traction" one would expect. In light of Harry76's comments, maybe there are some serious concerns beyond just traction I need to consider.
Like:
Is the tires construction adversely affected by operation in cold temps?
Does operation in cold temps 'change' the tire, thereby making it 'lesser' than it was--or now more prone to failure during summer operations?

I need to understand this as I frequently exceed 100 mph when its safe to do so. (e.g. traversing the desert on a deserted stretch of strait highway. Breaking away from a crowded pack on Austin's turnpike where the speed limit is 85 and median traffic is flowing at 95 mph etc.) If Michelin tires does not make a cold weather tire, would anyone else? If the Anakee III's on my KLR 650 are also not designed for cold weather use, is it okay, solely due to the fact I can't go over 85-90 mph on a thumper? Should there be a general warning and awareness cry? How serious is this? humm...

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 09:34:46 am »
I have used 7 sets of Michelin Pilot Road 2's and a couple of 3's in weather often below freezing, and not uncommonly less than 30F. As I said, I do back way off what I ask of the tires regarding grip when it is cold but as far as the tires suffering, they do not seem to have done that, and I continued using the same tires in the summer that followed. Most of my riding 2-up, so there is a fair load on the tires.

That said, I live in southern New England and I do not ride in hot (> 80F) temps. if I can avoid it so have not used a tire that had been exposed to and used in very low temps. to very high temp. riding. And many years ago, I did have a car tire basically de- laminate during a heat wave in GA, and the tire place that replaced it said that they see a fair amount of that with cars from the north because it creates exactly the hot / cold cycle that you mention. So it might well be worth considering not using the same tires in both cold and hot seasons or something similar? Perhaps a set for the cold season that you swap for a 'warm weather' set, assuming you either mount your own tires or have someone you know that has the equipment to do that?

Worst case would be a separate set of wheels, but of course that is pretty expensive to maintain two sets of wheels and tires (and brake rotors, etc.). Unless you happen to catch a set of wheels at a good price used.

Brian

So, I contacted Michelin Tire USA - Motorcycle Tire Division, and here's their reply.
"We appreciate your interest in putting Michelin tires on your Kawasaki, Curt. However, unfortunately, Michelin does not produce a motorcycle tire suited to such extreme cold weather conditions, we apologize for the inconvenience."
I obtusely assumed that my tires would work in temps below 32 degrees F, albeit with the "projected lesser cold-tire traction" one would expect. In light of Harry76's comments, maybe there are some serious concerns beyond just traction I need to consider.
Like:
Is the tires construction adversely affected by operation in cold temps?
Does operation in cold temps 'change' the tire, thereby making it 'lesser' than it was--or now more prone to failure during summer operations?

I need to understand this as I frequently exceed 100 mph when its safe to do so. (e.g. traversing the desert on a deserted stretch of strait highway. Breaking away from a crowded pack on Austin's turnpike where the speed limit is 85 and median traffic is flowing at 95 mph etc.) If Michelin tires does not make a cold weather tire, would anyone else? If the Anakee III's on my KLR 650 are also not designed for cold weather use, is it okay, solely due to the fact I can't go over 85-90 mph on a thumper? Should there be a general warning and awareness cry? How serious is this? humm...
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Dualsport

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 10:27:15 am »
Thank you for the reply, I live in Oklahoma and we get to 10 degrees F and 110 degrees F. This is my first winter riding season ever, getting down to 0 degrees. I have obtusely logged 5,200 miles just this winter alone on "soft-summer" Shinko's--mostly going straight down a freeway--and am just now noticing the very negative rear traction issues, as I just now have attempted more in-town winter riding.   I will be paying extra attention to the tire's condition and functionality, especially as I transition back into the summer.
I've ridden almost exclusively freeway this winter and have only recently done the little short-ride / in-town, due to the inconvenience of donning all that heated gear.  I've long seen the Goldwinger's out in the cold and have just never considered that motorcycle tires may not be designed for cold weather operations.
I was raised in Iowa and as a teen, I would take dirt bikes out for fun after a new snow. I was surprised to realize that there are no traction issues when riding in snow, as the bike 'surprisingly' seems to retain an equivalent wet-road traction capability. Now ice, well that's an obvious winter concern and loss of traction, HOWEVER, when it got below zero, traction on ice improved. This has now got me thinking about having summer and winter tire sets, especially considering I don't exactly "putt-around' in the summer. 

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 02:04:02 pm »
It seems that it is done around here mostly on those semi- off road BMW's, but they typically have two sets of tires, with one set carbide - studded for winter use, and ride all year. Further north but still in New England, it gets much colder for much longer and so they end up with a snow / ice coating on the roads that lasts for the whole winter. To be able to ride at all during the winter there, they need studded tires. There are two kinds, one is the coarse thread, self- screwing (Easy Boys!) kind but the preferred ones actually bolt right through the tire. This is the same type used for ice- racing motorcycles and they have a tremendous amount of 'bite' even on glare ice (which is exactly where they ice- race motorcycles). A little funky to ride on them the first few times because they absolutely 'cog' a bit, and I found it very un- nerving to actually lean a bike over wearing such studs but it absolutely does work.

Of course carbide studded tires is not something I would use on warm pavement and not at all on clean, dry concrete if avoidable so that is not an option for year- round riding or on a bike that does not have at least another set of tires ready to mount for when spring arrives.

But sport- touring tires, on clean, dry but cold (20F or even colder) will work fine IF you ride as though you are riding on a wet road that has really substantial petroleum stripes down the center. And with modern, heated gear, it is not only possible, it is downright comfortable to ride for hours at temps. below freezing IF the rider(s) and the bike is set up for it. BTW, a C-14 has enough power to drive two sets of heated gear, neck- to- toe and keep up, though at 100% duty cycle (high on the heated gear), just barely. To get significantly more electrical power you basically have to move to a Hondapotamous (an OldWing) or a BMW.

When I was a kid I also loved to ride dirt bikes in the snow. Back in those days, snowmobiles did not typically have the one- million horsepower they do today so something such as a Honda Elsinore would easily out- run snowmobiles, at least the ones I ran into, on a straight road with fresh snow.... much to the amazement of the snowmobile riders. :-)

Brian

Thank you for the reply, I live in Oklahoma and we get to 10 degrees F and 110 degrees F. This is my first winter riding season ever, getting down to 0 degrees. I have obtusely logged 5,200 miles just this winter alone on "soft-summer" Shinko's--mostly going straight down a freeway--and am just now noticing the very negative rear traction issues, as I just now have attempted more in-town winter riding.   I will be paying extra attention to the tire's condition and functionality, especially as I transition back into the summer.
I've ridden almost exclusively freeway this winter and have only recently done the little short-ride / in-town, due to the inconvenience of donning all that heated gear.  I've long seen the Goldwinger's out in the cold and have just never considered that motorcycle tires may not be designed for cold weather operations.
I was raised in Iowa and as a teen, I would take dirt bikes out for fun after a new snow. I was surprised to realize that there are no traction issues when riding in snow, as the bike 'surprisingly' seems to retain an equivalent wet-road traction capability. Now ice, well that's an obvious winter concern and loss of traction, HOWEVER, when it got below zero, traction on ice improved. This has now got me thinking about having summer and winter tire sets, especially considering I don't exactly "putt-around' in the summer.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Bob Skinner

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 05:04:05 pm »
Winter tires for cars will work below zero.
Ha ha ha ha!!!!

Offline Rubber_Snake

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 11:14:07 pm »
Winter tires for cars will work below zero.
Ha ha ha ha!!!!

I was thinking the same thing, just not verbalizing it!  I don’t even want to go there!
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Offline Dualsport

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Re: Heated Gear does NOT thwart cold tires!
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 12:25:31 pm »
I found this on Tire Rack. Is it really true, or are they just trying to sell all season tires? If it is true, then maybe riding a motorcycle in the cold is not a good idea...

Summer performance tires feature tread compounds engineered to provide traction in warm to hot ambient temperatures. They were never intended to experience near- and below-freezing temperatures, nor the wintry driving conditions that often accompany them.

As ambient temperatures get colder, typically in the 40-45° Fahrenheit range, summer performance tires lose a noticeable percentage of traction as their tread compound rubber properties change from a pliable elastic to inflexible plastic. The tire industry uses the term "glass transition" to describe the temperature where a summer performance tire's grip/slip performance changes dramatically. This means the summer performance tires that provide predictable traction in warm to hot conditions will be found to be very challenging to drive in cold to freezing temperatures. This is especially true when the tires first begin to be driven or if the driver aggressively applies gas pedal pressure with today's turbocharged fours or high-torque sixes and eights. Fortunately, glass transition is a reversible condition that allows the tires' normal traction to return as the ambient temperatures climb.

If ambient temperatures drop to near- or below-freezing, driving or rolling a vehicle equipped with summer performance tires risks the possibility of tread compound cracking. Tread compound cracking is a permanent condition that requires the tires to be replaced. The other condition that can be caused by running summer performance tires in cold temperatures is the possibility of chipping away the edges of the tread blocks.

Since both of these conditions only occur as the result of what's considered improper use or storage, they are not typically covered by the manufacturer's warranty.