Author Topic: Fuel Indications  (Read 508 times)

Offline Tree

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Fuel Indications
« on: July 06, 2018, 05:35:38 pm »
This has been bugging me since I resurrected my bike.  The fuel level, as indicated on the 6 LCD segments, never goes below the last 2 ("E" and the gas pump icon) and I don't get the low fuel warning any more (not that I really miss that part).  Indicated level goes to the top LCD bar when I fill up and the bars turn off as I put miles on the tank which tells me that the signal from the float is working.

The cluster and the fuel gauge (float) have been replaced.  I don't have a clear picture of how the circuitry works and I would like to know.  If there is a description in the Owner's Manual I can't find it.

The fuel pump has a "Reserve" sensor of some sort but I don't know what it does.  Could that have something to do with my indications?  I dunno.  Pretty much throwing darts right now.
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Offline lather

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 05:47:50 pm »
The float controls the fuel gauge the sensor on the pump controls the low fuel warning. What do you mean by resurrect ?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 05:57:05 pm »
The float assembly is what shows as 'fuel bars' on the display.

The 'switch' on the side of the fuel pump (it is not a switch but for our purposes, close enough) trips the low fuel warning indicator and corresponding dash readings (fuel bar flashing, range indicator being replaced with the words "Low Fuel"). There is no link between the two of them on running low on fuel but there IS a link of re- fueling: if you trip the low fuel warning, you must satisfy both sensors to get rid of the low fuel warning. Some of my customers have inserted the low fuel warning eliminator and expected the low fuel warning to go away (logical enough of course) only to find the dash display requires both the L.F.W. sensor AND the float ass'y sense a filled fuel tank to have the electronics cancel the warning.

Brian

This has been bugging me since I resurrected my bike.  The fuel level, as indicated on the 6 LCD segments, never goes below the last 2 ("E" and the gas pump icon) and I don't get the low fuel warning any more (not that I really miss that part).  Indicated level goes to the top LCD bar when I fill up and the bars turn off as I put miles on the tank which tells me that the signal from the float is working.

The cluster and the fuel gauge (float) have been replaced.  I don't have a clear picture of how the circuitry works and I would like to know.  If there is a description in the Owner's Manual I can't find it.

The fuel pump has a "Reserve" sensor of some sort but I don't know what it does.  Could that have something to do with my indications?  I dunno.  Pretty much throwing darts right now.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Tree

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 07:10:44 pm »
... What do you mean by resurrect ?


This: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22892.0 I didn't want to dredge up the whole post.  I just got to the point where I don't need sedation to sleep at night.   ;D

I understand how the bulb (reserve sensor?) that is attached to the fuel pump acts as a switch.  It will detect level/or not.  With no level the circuitry will trigger the warning.  What I can't wrap my tiny brain around is why the stupid tank level LCD's do not completely turn off when the tank is empty.  Ya know?  If they are driven by the float, and only the float, then the segments should completely disappear with no fuel.  Right?

Unless there is something else in that circuit...  I suspect that the "reserve sensor" is in there somehow.  I may be completely off base, and I often am.  I'm stuck in the before/after loop.  The warning worked before I fried the electrical system.  Now it doesn't so there is still something broken.  Driving me crazy it is.  Thanks for chiming in guys.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 07:29:51 pm »
What I can't wrap my tiny brain around is why the stupid tank level LCD's do not completely turn off when the tank is empty.  Ya know?  If they are driven by the float, and only the float, then the segments should completely disappear with no fuel.  Right?

If it is working properly, yes.  Mine does.  But your float could be sticking, or mechanism bent/out of correctness, or the potentiometer attached to it might be dirty or something like that.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 07:51:25 pm »
I find the best treatment for this occurrence of OCD, is to keep the tank full, which is not a bad habit to get into.

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Offline Tree

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 11:25:57 pm »
OCD.  Oh yeah!

Anyways, I pulled the tank last week and replaced the float assembly with a NIB one.  Hoped it would fix the last 2 segments.  Nope.  Dismantled the fuel pump and replaced the fuel filter too.  It was a funny color.  Not Ha-Ha funny either.  I was thinking about replacing the sensor.  Has anyone done that before?
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Offline lather

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 06:13:09 am »
As Brian said there is no link between the fuel sensor and the guage bars. I think a possiblity with a new float assembly is that it is not properly calibrated. On my 84 Ninja  I had the opposite situation the bars would all be gone and there was still a gallon and a half. I simply bent the float arm to re-calibrate. You could try that with the C14
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Offline Tree

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2018, 12:54:00 pm »
I think you guys are correct in that the functions of the float and bulb do not relate in regards to level indication.  It is possible that the final 2 LED segments do not extinguish because the bar for the float may need to be bent a little.  I did replace the original float that had previously indicated just fine... you know... before the electrical event, so I'm skeptical about my indications.

My OCD just keeps kicking in.  I really wish I had a decent schematic that showed the signals from the float and bulb.  They disappear into the cluster and the magic happens.

Now, if I could get my hands on a used, known-good bulb, then I can replace the one in my fuel pump and eliminate the final piece of this puzzle.  I would rather not spend the $250+ on a new pump tho.  That would certainly feed my OCD!

Does anyone have a busted fuel pump that I can scavenge a bulb from?  The same approach worked with the ABS pump when I swapped the electronics.

Shoot me a PM.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2018, 01:01:09 pm »
There seem to be quite a few on Ebay with prices as low as $75.  But who knows what state they are in, plus there is transactional risk.
Guhl ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, HID, helmet locks, Garmin Zumo 450, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2018, 02:22:18 pm »
The service manual delineates very clearly the Ohm readings on both the high and low side of the gauge.

Besides that, you can simply remove the fuel gauge from the bike, then plug it in an operate it manually to see if your gauge drops to 1 bar. If you do not want to do that because the fuel gauge sender is in the tank, you can simply get a few resistors of the value shown in the service manual and place them into the bike's circuitry and the dash gauge will read whatever it is supposed to for the float being in that position. According to the manual, the fuel sender should read between 9 to 11 Ohm for a full tank, and 213 to 219 for an empty tank. So grabbing two resistors, one in the middle of each of those ranges, should show you the correct number of bars on the dash. You can find which wires from the schematic but if you have any trouble, let me know and I will tell you what connector and what the wire colors are to jump with the resistors.

VERY IMPORTANT: there is a built- in delay (called hysteresis) in the reading of the fuel level on the dash! It is there so that the gauge does NOT respond to the fuel sloshing around in the tank, which would drive some people absolutely nuts (probably most people I guess). So you cannot just swing the float to one end of its travel to the other and watch the dash change; instead you MUST put the float in a single position and wait for the ECU to average the readings and decide this new one is legitimate before it will be displayed. In my own experience, the reading is quite slow, perhaps 20 or more seconds for a response.

You can also buy a used fuel level sender on Ebay and use that to check the dash display. I just looked and they are available from around $10.

I <believe> that you will never, ever get [no] bars but instead the fuel range is from one bar to all of the bars. Once the fuel gauge on the dash drops to one bar, the next trigger is the low fuel warning and when that trips, the lowest bar on the fuel gauge flashes continuously ON / OFF in one- second intervals.

Brian

I think you guys are correct in that the functions of the float and bulb do not relate in regards to level indication.  It is possible that the final 2 LED segments do not extinguish because the bar for the float may need to be bent a little.  I did replace the original float that had previously indicated just fine... you know... before the electrical event, so I'm skeptical about my indications.

My OCD just keeps kicking in.  I really wish I had a decent schematic that showed the signals from the float and bulb.  They disappear into the cluster and the magic happens.

Now, if I could get my hands on a used, known-good bulb, then I can replace the one in my fuel pump and eliminate the final piece of this puzzle.  I would rather not spend the $250+ on a new pump tho.  That would certainly feed my OCD!

Does anyone have a busted fuel pump that I can scavenge a bulb from?  The same approach worked with the ABS pump when I swapped the electronics.

Shoot me a PM.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Tree

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 11:50:45 am »
Thanks for the replies.  I will chew on this for a while.  The resistance checks and bulb replacement are an easy test.  At least I'm proficient at removing the gas tank now.   ;D
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 03:28:55 pm »
Thanks for the replies.  I will chew on this for a while.  The resistance checks and bulb replacement are an easy test.  At least I'm proficient at removing the gas tank now.   ;D

LOL :)
On my previous bike I removed the tank dozens and dozens of times.  On the Concours?  7 years and not once yet.  But the time is coming...  (and is overdue).
Guhl ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, HID, helmet locks, Garmin Zumo 450, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 04:54:18 pm »
I have always seen it said and stated that the side fairings on a C-14 have to be removed to remove the fuel tank. It is kind of an 'everyone knows' thing..... But you do not have to remove any fairing at all to remove the fuel tank; merely take the fasteners out of the top of the side fairings, 'pop' them out (rubber donuts and push- pin on the fairing holding them in) and spread them (Easy Boys!) enough to lift the tank straight up. It is easiest with a helper but barring that, a bath towel, draped over the tank, and then placed between each fairing and the tank will prevent any scratches when lifting the tank out. Also, a piece of 2 X 4 is extremely handy to hold up the back of the tank while you disconnect the electrical connections (two at the rear of the tank) and the fuel line (one, at the bottom of the tank). Then lift the entire tank up and away from the bike.

Brian

LOL :)
On my previous bike I removed the tank dozens and dozens of times.  On the Concours?  7 years and not once yet.  But the time is coming...  (and is overdue).
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline maxtog

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Re: Fuel Indications
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 05:07:04 pm »
I will keep all that in mind when it is "my turn."  But I have a feeling whatever maintenance it ends up being will require removal of all the side fairings, too.  (I expect valve checking, coolant replace, and air filter some day).
Guhl ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, HID, helmet locks, Garmin Zumo 450, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II