Author Topic: Schnitz Racing ECU flash  (Read 3113 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2018, 04:48:59 pm »
Yes, it is all very subjective. I have found the exact same thing with various people reporting on how well a Rostra works on a C-14 for example, some think it is wonderful while some seem a little disappointing that it is not flawless. Exactly as you said, how does one measure pain, food, etc., etc.

I will say that I have not found any 'day and night' differences in C-14's regardless of tune or flash (though of course I have not tried them all). But I did notice a huge difference in an '08 ZX 14 once the 'flies were removed AND it was tuned on a dyno with a Power Commander. An acquaintance had a new ZX and frankly both of us were underwhelmed with its performance in low to mid- range power, throttle response and so forth. I removed the 'flies and honestly, while it perhaps did get better, it was just not impressive, at least to either of us. But after adding a P.C. with a custom map, it was transformed into the bike I expected it to be in the first place- very impressive, far more so than tuning a C-14 for example.

I was happy with removing the 'flies and a P.C. III with a custom map on my own bike, coupled with removing all the slack from the throttle cables which I personally found to contribute more to the bike's low- speed jerkiness than the actual mixture tuning. But just like you, I would not say it was suddenly something outrageous, just more like the 1400 cc bike I expected when I bought it in the first place. I found the stock bike neutered below, say, 5K RPM, and removing the 'flies and re-tuning the mixture eliminated that situation.... IMO of course.

Brian

For me, it [Guhl flash] was a huge change and I was sure it was there.  I wasn't expecting a "totally different bike" kind of experience, though.  But it immediately got rid of that horrible lag and "sag" in the performance curve at lower RPM that was driving me crazy.  I had the EXACT SAME issue with my ZRX-11- it felt the same way, until I installed a jet kit and WHAM, it was just linear after that.  So if you know what it is was that was annoying, and had reasonable expectations, it was extremely noticeable and a "huge" change, at least with my driving style.  If you have a different driving style or weren't bothered by the stock behavior to start with, it might be much less noticeable.

:)  Well, subjectivity always comes across with wild variations.  Kinda like explaining pain or how delicious something is.  I know for sure that lots of things that annoy me or drive me crazy don't phase many other people at all, and vice-versa.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 07:17:32 am »
  The real issue here is "the black box effect". Folks can't see the programming, so they can easily think it's all the same. 

  I made the comparison of a Mercedes and a Yugo to the OP. The point was that they are both cars, but they are not the same. Your C-14 isn't like a Hyosung 250, but they are both motorcycles. When it comes to flashes, since folks can't see the programming and haven't experienced what can be achieved, it's easy to say it's all the same. All flashes are the same... but they're not.

   I have written before that just opening the secondaries sooner will yield the largest change / gain in the new tuning. This isn't hard to do, kind of like removing the secondaries, which costs 0.00.  To be honest, I gained more %age of change in the first couple of days tuning the c-14 than I have in the ensuing YEARS of constant refinement. So I guess this supports the 80/20 statements earlier in this thread.

   Even in my own flashes, I have 2 diverging styles. The difference is primarily in the secondary controls. Although both make the same peak power, how they get there, in throttle %age, throttle feel and control, are different. Some folks prefer one style over the other, to the point that it is very polarizing. But as been stated, if you haven't felt the differences, you simply cannot say "this is better"... and then in reality, it's only better FOR YOU.  To that end I will allow folks an opportunity to change to another flash for little or no $$, depending on the situation. Most folks DON'T take me up on that. Most folks, after discussing the options have a sense of their riding style, so they pick one and it's a done deal.

    What can be done, and what sets flashes apart from each other? While everyone wants to concentrate on fueling, one huge forgotten parameter is timing. Timing will increase power, smoothness, and fuel economy, often to a much greater effect than fueling changes. 75.00 flashes don't have any timing changes... so there is that, but for a tuner that's a pretty easy way to go. Timing can be friend or foe... leave it alone and you don't have to deal with that. The product is not optimized in any manner, but the tuner saves on the work load. The best tunes have extensive timing work, which isn't done haphazardly. That's just one place that sets tunes apart.

     If you've been around the Concours, you know what exhaust options are available. Fueling needs to be optimized based on those options. There's only 1 full system I know of in the US for the the Concours... the AreaP. All other full systems are zx14 systems. We all know the slipon players, maybe what, 5 options? They will all react the same, so fueling is consistent with slipon changes, But one must wonder, when a flash is being offered with a couple hundred dollar fueling upgrade for exhausts that don't even exist for the Concours how much development time went into that. Things that make you go HMMM.

   How come some folks feel "night and day" differences and some do not?  That's pretty easy... the more of the throttle / powerband you use, the more you'll notice the changes. Take a guy who never really rev's the bike, generally easy on the throttle, etc... he's not going to experience anywhere near what the rider who is using from idle to redline, and zero to !00% throttle. Easy riders may not feel a flash did much for them. it may not have. There's only so much that can be accomplished in any given narrow area of operation.

   One of the better things I've read in this thread is there's some knowledge of the history of Concours flashing. Guhl was the big player for a long time. We have to be thankful for that. Don let us know that things could be better, and was willing to put in the effort to do so. Had Don stayed after it with constant innovation and dedication to the Concours community, there likely would be no competition for him. But that's not what happened, and here we are now. There are flashes available right now that are considerably better than 1 year ago. This is an evolving art. Certainly it is for me, and I think any tuner who wants to take pride in their work. I'm not trying to make any of this sound like a commercial, but it is the truth. The fact is that while all the black boxes look the same, what's getting stuffed inside of them is not.

  Steve

   

 

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 03:09:49 pm »
Thank you, Steve.
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Offline blue72beetle

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 09:08:10 pm »
I took my ECU down to Ryan's place yesterday and had him flash it. It's not a crazy huge difference, but there is a difference. Definitely worth $75. I'm happy with it.

Offline FIX UR CRITTER

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2018, 07:23:42 pm »
Quick update after a week in the mountains.

I can say that I am very happy for the improvement.

I wasn't positive I felt what I thought I did until my wife confirmed it by saying, " i don't feel the shifts anymore". I couldn't understand how a flash could make my shift lever engage smoother- it just clicks in like butter and the abruptness in between  shifts is gone. Riding 2 up I was always conscience of trying to get a smooth shift as not to disrupt the wife.. Now I dont have to worry about that.

I rode another c14 for 10 minutes with a different flash- and he rode my bike- neither of us could feel i big difference between them.

I know the more expensive flashes have a lot more tweaks and time in them, but for $100, the best bang for the buck outside of my $20 Vista throttle lock.

Ride safe

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Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2018, 02:37:09 pm »
Whatever is “ best bang for the buck” is subjective . If I were to have a choice between a open the flies only tune for $75 or a full tune for $350, I’d consider the latter to be the better bang for the buck. Beside seat of the pants, where else can you get an extra 14 hp for the difference of $275?
And, I say this after riding with a open the flies earlier tune for four years and a complete tune for the last 2000 miles .
The same goes for a throttle lock- I’d never trade my $800 mccruise for a $20 throttle lock, I’d much prefer that $780 to be below the left hand grip than in my pocket . By how well it works, I think it’s a better use of $.
Of course that’s just my opinion .
I think these mods make the bike feel like a different animal. My right hand no longer hurts at the end of a long ride, I get better mpg ( which is much appreciated on a long ride) and the bike has more power ( again , appreciated on long rides when the bike is weighted down with luggage).
. But, if you ever get curious and get a mccruise and a full tune, the $
spent on the schnitz and throttle lock is just a waste.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 03:10:34 pm by katata1100 »

Offline gPink

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2018, 05:20:46 pm »
Not a waste...an education. We don't know until we try.
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2018, 06:45:27 pm »
Don’t know what?

Spend and extra $275, you get 14+ more hp.
Spend $780 more on mccruise , you get a real functioning cruise control unit, not
some pos throttle lock contraption that belongs in the landfill.

Offline turbojoe78

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2018, 06:52:13 pm »
The OP got a throttle lock to help on long rides, a flash that he feels is a pretty good improvement over stock and still has $1055.00 to put into suspension upgrades.

Sounds like a win, win, win to me!   ;)

It's all in how you look at it.   8)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2018, 07:35:22 pm »
Yep.  Lots of ways to look at things.  Choice is a good thing to have!
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Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2018, 07:40:48 pm »
If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....

Offline tweeter55

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2018, 08:12:04 pm »
If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....
Unless you can't afford prime grade rib eye.
Do not try to live forever on this earth. You will not succeed.

Offline gPink

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2018, 08:19:23 pm »
Whatever is “ best bang for the buck” is subjective . If I were to have a choice between a open the flies only tune for $75 or a full tune for $350, I’d consider the latter to be the better bang for the buck. Beside seat of the pants, where else can you get an extra 14 hp for the difference of $275?
And, I say this after riding with a open the flies earlier tune for four years and a complete tune for the last 2000 miles .
The same goes for a throttle lock- I’d never trade my $800 mccruise for a $20 throttle lock, I’d much prefer that $780 to be below the left hand grip than in my pocket . By how well it works, I think it’s a better use of $.
Of course that’s just my opinion .
I think these mods make the bike feel like a different animal. My right hand no longer hurts at the end of a long ride, I get better mpg ( which is much appreciated on a long ride) and the bike has more power ( again , appreciated on long rides when the bike is weighted down with luggage).
. But, if you ever get curious and get a mccruise and a full tune, the $
spent on the schnitz and throttle lock is just a waste.

Was the above not education through experimentation?
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline MtnRider

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2018, 08:22:26 pm »
If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....

Not everyone has the luxury of a Champaign budget. Don't knock a frugal budget and individual solutions that satisfies the needs of others. You're making yourself look like an elitist a$$. Just my $0.02 worth.

Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2018, 11:51:57 pm »
Elists? Hardly. I’m just saying  it’s a waste of money to buy something, then spend more $ in the future. Spend $75 on a tune and enjoy it, but there is a good chance that you’ll how much better a full tune is, look at dynographs, then give and upgrade. Doing it right the first time would have saved $75.
Btw, tuning via programming with a power commander is inferior to a reprogram. One reason is that
Power programmer can’t touch timing. We all now know that the flies should be left in and bike be given a proper tuning; not a badge gimmick box.