Author Topic: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO  (Read 2475 times)

Offline Poseidon

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New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« on: September 27, 2018, 04:27:11 pm »
Received email today from Kawasaki. I wonder what new models are being released. Any Concours updates maybe?



NEW MODELS TO DEBUT AT AIMEXPO
Mark your calendars. Exciting new models are set to launch at AIMExpo on October 11th in Las Vegas, Nevada. Follow our social media for real-time coverage.
2017 Concours 14
2016 Victory Magnum
2013 M109R
2016 Can Am Spyder F3T - Wife's bike

Offline blue72beetle

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 07:17:04 pm »
At least one is a KLR replacement.

Offline katata1100

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 09:19:06 pm »
I seriously doubt there will be any Concours 14, much less an updated one. That super charged monstrosity is the replacement and I think that thing is a joke because if I called my insurance company for insurance on a 228hp $27k bike, I would likely hear a lot of laughter on the other line.
But, getting back to topic, no C14.

Offline maxtog

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 01:25:14 am »
But, getting back to topic, no C14.


The questions are will there be a Concours or a replacement for the GTR1400/Concours14 or neither.  We already know that the H2 SX is not a replacement (and it is actually 171hp, not 228 http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/032018-2018-Kawasaki-Ninja-H2-SX-hp-torque-dyno-633x450.png ) and is not a Concours/GTR.  It is also likely the C14 as we know it now might be gone.  But, there is a small chance that there could be a gen3 of C14, or something else called a "Concours"/"GTR".  It would be a true/huge loss after a 32 year tradition.

We don't have long to wait at this point.  Just 13 days.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 08:20:10 am »
To keep up in the sport touring market they need to add ride by wire with cc and optional? ESA and LED lighting. IE 2018 FJR. Doesn't seem that much of stretch.

Offline katata1100

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 08:59:38 am »
I added cc and auto turn signals to my bike, no need for wheels. Since Mcruise came out with cc for the c14, the Aussie dollar has been plummeting steadily. Where once it cost over $1000, you can get one for under $800.
And, unlike some oem systems, will work in any gear, down to 22 mph.The only way any cc could work better would be if it were adaptive .
Back to topic , I think the days of high power sport tourers are numbered. I was thinking of adding a guzzi to my stable but they replaced their st with a cruiser.

Offline maxtog

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 09:20:13 am »
To keep up in the sport touring market they need to add ride by wire with cc and optional ESA and LED lighting.

Agreed.  LED headlights and all other lights, ride-by-wire, cruise, ride modes (not necessarily suspension, but performance/engine), and possibly updated computer display (larger/higher/res/more function/color).  Those are really the only 4 or 5 main things the C14 needs that it lacks.  None of which is all that difficult or expensive.

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IE 2018 FJR. Doesn't seem that much of stretch.

It really isn't much of a stretch.  What is interesting is to see what, if anything happens to the ZX14R for 2019.  The C14 was dropped in the non-North American markets, already, in 2018.  The supposed main issue in all this is compliance with recent EU pollution controls.  And, yet, that would be a snap on the C14, since they already did it on the ZX14R!  The recent C14 even already has the O2 sensor for ALL markets.

Back to topic , I think the days of high power sport tourers are numbered.

You are probably right.  The market was already small, and possibly shrinking.

Off-topic, but interesting: in Canada, many of the 2018's, including Concours has an included extra year of warranty right now (so for ONLY the Concours, it is 4 years total; 2 years on others).
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 05:35:41 pm »
I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need? I have never used eco mode. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike.

Ride by wire? Same deal. One more unnecessary part that could possibly go bad and just a reason for them to charge more for essentially the same bike.

Don’t even get me started on that POS adaptive cruise control. I have it on my work car and it may sound good in therory, but it has almost got me rear ended on the interstate several times when it suddenly “sees” a vehicle in the right lane while I am in the left lane and decides we should suddenly slow down fast. I don’t need a vehicle making decisions for me and I damn sure don’t need a bike that tries to kill me. There are enough idiots on the road trying to do that as it is!!!

Any bike with adaptive cruise will NEVER be in my stable!  Normally, I would say never say never, but I feel strongly about this. Enough to say I would quit riding before I would support a company that would put riders lives in danger the way adaptive cruise would.
2017 Concours 14
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Offline katata1100

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 07:15:59 pm »
“I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need? I have never used eco mode. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike. “

You must not ride further than the local donut shop. The C14 has a small tank, this limits range. Rather than try to make a bigger tank ( not practical), they added this extra mode. Btw, the mode did not add any weight, it’s all software. Some of travel far, and across great spanses of land where you might not see a gas station in an hour ( southern Utah, I’m talking about you!) I’m on a current ride
And I like have to make fewer stops for fuel. I could care less about the. $ saved, I just want to make
good time and not run out of fuel.25 minutes lane splitting in stop and go traffic
And a nice thing about cc is that it gives even better mpg . Yesterday I rode 400 miles, averaging around 78 mph, got 50.1 mpg.
And that was on crap California 91 gas.



Offline maxtog

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 08:18:07 pm »
I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need?

Well, it isn't expensive (actually costs zero) and there are no parts and nothing to break.  It is nothing but having more maps to select from.  I can see how it could be useful.  For example, one set of maps (think "Flash") could be with aggressive engine breaking, and another with normal, and another with little.

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I have never used eco mode [FEAM]. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike.

FEAM is useful for when you do need to stretch out your mileage on long trips.  I rarely use it, since I don't take many long trips.  But it is handy at times.  And actually, the "touring" part of sport touring does greatly depend on range (which is why one of our complaints has consistently been "if only the tank were a little larger").

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Ride by wire? Same deal. One more unnecessary part that could possibly go bad and just a reason for them to charge more for essentially the same bike.

Ride by wire (electronic throttle) would instantly add cruise control (at zero cost), it would eliminate throttle cables and the need for their adjustment or lubrication and eventual replacement from wear, and it would likely remove the need for the entire secondary throttles assembly (because it would be mostly redundant).  So it would actually result in far fewer parts and, thus, less expense than what we have now.  Which also means it is likely more reliable, too.  There is no avoiding this, all vehicles will have it.  But it is a good thing (now that the technology is proven, effective, and reliable).

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Don’t even get me started on that POS adaptive cruise control.

That, I hate, and never use it on my car (I have to intentionally turn it off EVERY TIME so I can have conventional cruise).  I find it annoying and dangerous and would never want that on a motorcycle.

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Any bike with adaptive cruise will NEVER be in my stable!

Unless it were designed correctly, so the "adaptive" part  could be turned off, so it is normal cruise control, like I can on my G37S (which has adaptive as an optional function).  I have no problem with optional things (modes, settings, etc), as long as I can retain control over them (and control that preferably is "sticky" (persistent) )
Guhl ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, HID, helmet locks, Garmin Zumo 450, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline Poseidon

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2018, 09:35:06 pm »

You must not ride further than the local donut shop. The C14 has a small tank, this limits range. Rather than try to make a bigger tank ( not practical), they added this extra mode. Btw, the mode did not add any weight, it’s all software. Some of travel far, and across great spanses of land where you might not see a gas station in an hour ( southern Utah, I’m talking about you!) I’m on a current ride
And I like have to make fewer stops for fuel. I could care less about the. $ saved, I just want to make
good time and not run out of fuel.25 minutes lane splitting in stop and go traffic
And a nice thing about cc is that it gives even better mpg . Yesterday I rode 400 miles, averaging around 78 mph, got 50.1 mpg.
And that was on crap California 91 gas.

If you prefer the super slab, you may be correct. I prefer taking the back roads out to the mountains. Smiles per gallon are more important to me. No donut shop trips here either. Most of my rides are 300 - 400 miles also, but it is thru small towns and back roads, then some spirited riding on the twisted mountain roads. I guess you could say I like the sport touring vs just touring on a sport bike. I bought the Councours for a comfortable ride to the mountains and back, along with some performance and handling once I get there. If I’m strickly going long distances, I have my Magnum for that. Better storage and a much more comfortable ride.

On the eastern half of the US, you are going to be hard pressed to ever find yourself an hour from a gas station. 2-3 hours ride between fill ups is perfectly acceptable to me. I’m ready for a break and need to rehydrate by then anyway. Additional range, either from a bigger tank or better fuel mileage is not what I need.
2017 Concours 14
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2016 Can Am Spyder F3T - Wife's bike

Offline Poseidon

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2018, 10:04:29 pm »
Well, it isn't expensive (actually costs zero) and there are no parts and nothing to break.  It is nothing but having more maps to select from.  I can see how it could be useful.  For example, one set of maps (think "Flash") could be with aggressive engine breaking, and another with normal, and another with little.
Regardless if it cost the manufacturer anything or not, the MSRP will go up once they add it. It takes different ECU to run, switch, and store those extra maps. If the ones on our bikes could do it, there would be software downloads available to make them able to do it now. There will also end up being some form of control unit to allow the rider to switch between those maps. Most likely tied to some form of screen which also will not be cheaper than the analog gauges we currently have. Most importantly for me, none of the maps the factory adds as options are going to offer the performance an aftermarket tune / flash is going to offer. It most likely will make it more difficult for aftermarket tuners to be able to be able to flash it and thus making those more expensive as well.

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FEAM is useful for when you do need to stretch out your mileage on long trips.  I rarely use it, since I don't take many long trips.  But it is handy at times.  And actually, the "touring" part of sport touring does greatly depend on range (which is why one of our complaints has consistently been "if only the tank were a little larger").

See my response in my last post above.

Quote
Ride by wire (electronic throttle) would instantly add cruise control (at zero cost), it would eliminate throttle cables and the need for their adjustment or lubrication and eventual replacement from wear, and it would likely remove the need for the entire secondary throttles assembly (because it would be mostly redundant).  So it would actually result in far fewer parts and, thus, less expense than what we have now.  Which also means it is likely more reliable, too.  There is no avoiding this, all vehicles will have it.  But it is a good thing (now that the technology is proven, effective, and reliable).

Electronics are never going to be more reliable than a simple throttle cable. Less maintance, sure. I agree with you there. Servos on the throttle bodies, cheap plastic parts, wiring, connectors, and even the electronics in the grip / throttle itself are all potential points of failure. Not to mention the inability to change grips to aftermarket if you so choose. Give it more time, and you will start hearing people complaining about failures in the throttle by wire systems and the cost involved with replacement parts. My wife’s Spyder has it and after changing her grips over to the OEM heated grips, I can already see where potential points of failure are.

Quote
That, I hate, and never use it on my car (I have to intentionally turn it off EVERY TIME so I can have conventional cruise).  I find it annoying and dangerous and would never want that on a motorcycle.

Unless it were designed correctly, so the "adaptive" part  could be turned off, so it is normal cruise control, like I can on my G37S (which has adaptive as an optional function).  I have no problem with optional things (modes, settings, etc), as long as I can retain control over them (and control that preferably is "sticky" (persistent) )
My work car is a Honda Accord Touring. The adaptive part of the cruise control can not be turned off. You either use it as adaptive or not at all. It sucks!!!
2017 Concours 14
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2013 M109R
2016 Can Am Spyder F3T - Wife's bike

Offline katata1100

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2018, 11:40:35 pm »
Sorry, I don’t know the east coast so I don’t have the convenience of lots of gas stations . I do have the finest areas to ride in the country, perhaps you have heard of the Rockies, Sierra Nevada? Or those little mountain roads with Redwood and sequoia trees?

Simply adding parts or improvements to a bike doesn’t mean they will raise the price . Big business doesn’t price like a kid running a lemonade stand; they use market research to price.

Offline maxtog

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2018, 05:23:46 am »
Regardless if it cost the manufacturer anything or not, the MSRP will go up once they add it. It takes different ECU to run, switch, and store those extra maps.

It would be about $1 worth of additional EEEPROM or Flash storage.  Any redesign would be a new ECU, so that is just a given.

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There will also end up being some form of control unit to allow the rider to switch between those maps. Most likely tied to some form of screen which also will not be cheaper than the analog gauges we currently have.

OK, $5 for a rotary control to add to our single button.  Again, something that would be added anyway with a design.

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Most importantly for me, none of the maps the factory adds as options are going to offer the performance an aftermarket tune / flash is going to offer.

Of course not, but now we would have many more slots that could be custom flashed :)

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It most likely will make it more difficult for aftermarket tuners to be able to be able to flash it and thus making those more expensive as well.

It would be more difficult, but not necessarily more expensive.  The cost of the reflashing is mostly opportunity cost (fixed).

Quote
Electronics are never going to be more reliable than a simple throttle cable. Less maintance, sure. I agree with you there. Servos on the throttle bodies[...]

There are already all those servoes and wiring and parts- on the secondaries that are being replaced/removed!  Again, it is a zero-sum minimum on the Concours.  Perhaps not on some other engine that doesn't already have secondary throttle plates already being controlled by a computer
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Offline maxtog

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Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2018, 05:26:10 am »
Simply adding parts or improvements to a bike doesn’t mean they will raise the price . Big business doesn’t price like a kid running a lemonade stand; they use market research to price.

+1

There are some real/hard costs, but adding or upgrading most "features" don't really have any real cost.  The cost is in the retooling, research, and design.  And with a typical new model, they are already doing all that anyway.  They aren't likely going to do all that to the existing C14, but would for some totally new model that would replace it.
Guhl ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, HID, helmet locks, Garmin Zumo 450, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II