Author Topic: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith  (Read 2177 times)

Offline Gabriel

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Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« on: October 27, 2018, 11:09:09 am »
I had a local locksmith make me a passive fob, cost was about 60/65 bucks total.
Here is a picture of the key, and a YouTube video of it working.

Owners name is Wayne;
A-Anykind of Lock & Safe - (281) 338-9100
421 East Nasa Road 1, Webster, TX 77598
http://www.anykindlockandsafe.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVK2VgROXA


« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 03:01:18 pm by Gabriel »

Offline jimmymac

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 11:18:38 am »
I can do that with an Oreo cookie, if the fob's in my pocket.
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 04:27:49 am »
Good information and this is going to be a CLONE of the existing passive (i.e. "credit card") FOB.  This "HOND 31P" key blank has a cloneable TPX3 transponder in it which is the same type of transponder used in the Concours.

By the way, if you are one of those C14 owners who have ONLY the active FOB, keep in mind that this also contains a passive, or KEY IMMOBILIZER, function and this part could be "cloned" using this same technique and keep you from the unfortunate scenario where you have NO keys if you lose your FOB.  It seems there have been a couple of those recently.

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2018, 06:10:27 am »
Good information and this is going to be a CLONE of the existing passive (i.e. "credit card") FOB.  This "HOND 31P" key blank has a cloneable TPX3 transponder in it which is the same type of transponder used in the Concours.

By the way, if you are one of those C14 owners who have ONLY the active FOB, keep in mind that this also contains a passive, or KEY IMMOBILIZER, function and this part could be "cloned" using this same technique and keep you from the unfortunate scenario where you have NO keys if you lose your FOB.  It seems there have been a couple of those recently.

He cloned the passive RFID chip in my only "active" fob and it's a XXX4 version of something I don't exactly remember but he said it was old technology.
He also said he thinks he can clone the active fob, I'm going to check back next week to see. Now that would be great to make an exact clone.
This guy has thousands of dollars worth of equipment and software, of which I saw him use at least three readers when doing this. 

Offline jwh20

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2018, 11:34:35 am »
He probably cannot clone the active FOB.  It's a proprietary Kawasaki system and, to my knowledge, it not used in any other vehicle.

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2018, 11:44:40 am »
He opened the fob and named every component on the circuit board. he said there is nothing special about it.
I will find out soon.
One advantage to cloning is that it won't use space in the memory of the keepass system.
It would probably cost less than 100 bucks if he can do it, I asked...

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 12:21:47 pm »
I would like to see how this pans out... :popcorn:
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 12:39:53 pm »
I would like to see how this pans out... :popcorn:
I will post back here.


Offline gPink

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 01:29:52 pm »
Please do. Sounds like a money maker if he's able to do it for a reasonable cost.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 02:43:23 pm »
after spending prtetty much the last month, explaining and researching, and supplying how "chips" can be cloned, the chip sets, the equipment, and the Kawasaki system (developed by Mitsubishi...propriatary to Kawasaki)...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23739.msg296683#msg296683

all I can say is:
Yes, passive chips can be cloned.

Active FOBS CANNOT, that is why each one has a "slot" in the program, and each is delivered sending a different "code sequence"...

You must have a paired, fob, either active, or passive, to turn ignition "ON", to even begin programming anything to the bike.

so, programming an ACTIVE FOB, in a CLONE scenario, is not an option... because you CAN'T CLONE the FOB...   i.e., you can't "program" the FOB.... just the receiver...


30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2018, 02:55:40 pm »
after spending prtetty much the last month, explaining and researching, and supplying how "chips" can be cloned, the chip sets, the equipment, and the Kawasaki system (developed by Mitsubishi...propriatary to Kawasaki)...

all I can say is:
Yes, passive chips can be cloned.

Active FOBS CANNOT, that is why each one has a "slot" in the program, and each is delivered sending a different "code sequence"...

You must have a paired, fob, either active, or passive, to turn ignition "ON", to even begin programming anything to the bike.

so, programming an ACTIVE FOB, in a CLONE scenario, is not an option... because you CAN'T CLONE the FOB...   i.e., you can't "program" the FOB.... just the receiver...

Well this is true that the control unit has to programed to the fob which means if you can duplicate the fob it's a home run.
This locksmith tells me that these devices do not communicate back and forth, that the fob sends a signal that the control unit can relate to. (ad-libbed)
I will find out for sure

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2018, 03:32:02 pm »
Well this is true that the control unit has to programed to the fob which means if you can duplicate the fob it's a home run.
This locksmith tells me that these devices do not communicate back and forth, that the fob sends a signal that the control unit can relate to. (ad-libbed)
I will find out for sure

I pretty much understand that, that's why I spent so much time researching this, and providing it....
now, even though I explained exactly what you just said... go back and read what you said the locksmith told you.....
, just to make it simple.... the part about the FOB 'SENDS' a signal, but doesn't "RECEIVE' a signal... it's a one way flow... so this is why I state, you can't program the FOB.... it does not receive a signal. nor can it be sent a signal to 'reprogram it' to anything... it's a stored code, and cannot be 'changed' like a blank chip.... once that code is burned in, it is the only contents occupying the space, and cannot be changed...or written over.

hey, please take the time, and supply the locksmith, I'd suggest you buy a new Active fob tho, and have it paired, along with the RFID chip, to your bike, By  someone with a KDS3 device.... prior to letting him "experiment" with your active FOB....... simply because he has no liabilities, as it's not his bike... and if he 'tries' to crack the mystery of the signal generation, and can actually pull the data, he needs to send that data to another device, an active device, that does what the Kaw Active FOB does... sends a signal... and lotsa 'awwwshytzz' can occur...

the secure protocols developed for this system have been in place for 10+ years, the first person that even says 'oh, that's old tech, I can do that', ought to be working for Kaw, for 4x his yearly salary... if he is that smart.

let us know how it pans out. I am seriously curious, as I try to be on top of this tech thing...
and thanks for being our crash test volunteer..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline PH14

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2018, 03:37:39 pm »
after spending prtetty much the last month, explaining and researching, and supplying how "chips" can be cloned, the chip sets, the equipment, and the Kawasaki system (developed by Mitsubishi...propriatary to Kawasaki)...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23739.msg296683#msg296683

all I can say is:
Yes, passive chips can be cloned.

Active FOBS CANNOT, that is why each one has a "slot" in the program, and each is delivered sending a different "code sequence"...

You must have a paired, fob, either active, or passive, to turn ignition "ON", to even begin programming anything to the bike.

so, programming an ACTIVE FOB, in a CLONE scenario, is not an option... because you CAN'T CLONE the FOB...   i.e., you can't "program" the FOB.... just the receiver...




I really think people should go back to basics, and read the manual before posting sometimes. The fob can be used as a passive fob when the battery is dead. Just to test this before I posted, I read the manual, and then removed the battery, and used it to start the bike. It activated the system just fine and I was able to turn the key and start the bike.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2018, 04:00:46 pm »
I really think people should go back to basics, and read the manual before posting sometimes. The fob can be used as a passive fob when the battery is dead. Just to test this before I posted, I read the manual, and then removed the battery, and used it to start the bike. It activated the system just fine and I was able to turn the key and start the bike.


yep... that works....
reading all the reponses in a post, before posting... does a lot also, as I never disputed the passive portion of an active fob...(if it was also programmed, like when you buy a NEW active fob, and pair it to the system, and you also have to pair the passive chip, in the new fob also... it's part of the KDS process...)

you would have to read the KDS3 manual to understand that process... so I can cut people slack, as most don't have that book...

but saying that, I am waiting to see if a new ACTIVE fob, can be re-programmed.. I know it can't, but still waiting...for that reply...

Oh, passive chip works, but if you loose the Active fob, that has the chip for the passive immobilizer, it doesn't matter if the battery is in or out... because it was LOST.......
 I'll listen to the song, and watch the pigs fly until I hear an active FOB can be re-programmed/cloned to an existing active fob...


30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline jwh20

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Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2018, 04:08:19 pm »
Quote
This locksmith tells me that these devices do not communicate back and forth

Actually not true at all and it's easy to demonstrate with a 915 MHz radio receiver.  When you press the stove knob the bike emits a "is any FOB around" message.  If a FOB is in range it says "hey, I'm here".  Then the KiPass ECU on the bike sends a message that the FOB then encrypts using it's ID, this is checked by the bike and if it's a correctly formed reply, the bike will unlock.

By the way, the Kawasaki documentation also describes this in somewhat general terms.

Why can't you clone the active FOB?  Because it has a "secret" that the locksmith can't determine.  That secret is the ID that is unique to that FOB and if you purchased a new one will be printed on the bag it came in.  That ID cannot be recovered by any means that anyone has determined to date.

While it's not fully documented, my theory is that the FOB hashes (using a cryptographic hash) the message sent from the ECU using its ID, which the ECU also knows, and so the reply from the FOB can be validated since only a FOB that knows that ID can reply properly.

But if he's willing to try, I'd say go for it!