Author Topic: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith  (Read 2175 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2423
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2018, 04:52:49 pm »
I agree, let him try it...
as for the "splaination..."

pressing knob with fob in pocket, signals Kipass to querry available signals, and that ECU sends them to main ECU, which either recognizes, or doesn't (fob not paired), and sends signal (via hard wires) back to Kipass in lockset to say "ok, continue" or "nope"... it never sends back to the FOB.
 nor does it continue to querry the fob, even tho it's (the fob) continually broadcasting.

So I think what you are seeing, as the Kipass ECU signal you pick up on the radio receiver, is just the fact it is being "turned on, to read available signals.."  not the actual transmission of any signals other than that...

it's like "turning on the OPEN" sign on a store window... :rotflmao: and not unlocking the door until someone shows you the money...

when messing with the radio thing, what happens if no fob is near, and you press the stove knob? do you get a 'ping'?

stick a passive immobilizer chip next to the lock, press the key, and see what the "radio receiver" shows you then, with no Active fob within range... and tell us if there is a difference in what shows on the radio receiver, compared to normal Active fob activation....
I'm thinking you will see the same "ping".

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline Gabriel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: 00
  • Near Galveston
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2018, 04:56:38 pm »
Yeah it would help if you read the whole thread (now i understand the popcorn)
The locksmith is not going to use a factory fob!
The locksmith stated that this fob (the oem fob) does not communicate back and forth to the control unit.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2423
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 05:06:12 pm »
Yeah it would help if you read the whole thread (now i understand the popcorn)
The locksmith is not going to use a factory fob!
The locksmith stated that this fob (the oem fob) does not communicate back and forth to the control unit.

if that was aimed towards me, show me where you mentioned any of that.
i.e. what is he going to program....?

if not aimed towards me, I'm fine with that.

anyway, best of luck, tell us all the outcome, and what he did, and used.
over and out. :popcorn:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline jwh20

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2018, 05:07:53 pm »
The FOB does not actively send out any signals until it "hears" the KiPass ECU.  That happens under two scenarios:

1) User presses the stove knob.
2) The bike was started using the FOB and the bike is underway.  (This checks every so often for the FOB and displays a warning that the FOB is missing if it doesn't get a reply.)

If you sit a radio next to the FOB without doing anything with the bike you will never hear it "chirp".  If you press the stove knob with no FOB around, you'll hear the bike ping several times before it activates the Key Immobilizer reader (i.e. the passive FOB reader).  If a FOB is in the area there is additional traffic as the negotiation happens.  The entire process takes much less than 1 sec.

So regardless of preconceived notions about what it does, it's quite easy to examine its behavior.

Offline fartymarty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1441
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2018, 05:22:34 pm »
......even tho it's (the fob) continually broadcasting.

Do you have a documented source (document title with page numbers etc.) for this info???

I find it hard to believe that the fob is constantly ("continually") broadcasting. I've heard this several times from different posts going back to the days where someone said that if you keep your FOB on the bike you need to wrap it up in aluminum foil etc.....I left my FOB on the bike without foil or battery life effect for months. I just don't think it does that, (either thing: continually broadcasts; or run down it's coin battery if left near the bike.) but I'll believe it if a Kawasaki or Mitsubishi document says so.

edit:
The FOB does not actively send out any signals until it "hears" the KiPass ECU.  That happens under two scenarios:

1) User presses the stove knob.
2) The bike was started using the FOB and the bike is underway.  (This checks every so often for the FOB and displays a warning that the FOB is missing if it doesn't get a reply.)

If you sit a radio next to the FOB without doing anything with the bike you will never hear it "chirp".  If you press the stove knob with no FOB around, you'll hear the bike ping several times before it activates the Key Immobilizer reader (i.e. the passive FOB reader).  If a FOB is in the area there is additional traffic as the negotiation happens.  The entire process takes much less than 1 sec.

So regardless of preconceived notions about what it does, it's quite easy to examine its behavior.
Ok I was typing slower than you, but I'm in agreement. However, MOB types it with such authority ...that I was hoping he had some documentation to back it up.

Offline jwh20

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2018, 05:37:52 pm »
I didn't say the FOB is constantly broadcasting.  In fact I said the opposite.

Offline Gabriel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: 00
  • Near Galveston
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2018, 06:10:07 pm »
I have faith in this locksmith, he processed that passive key first time with no mistakes.
One of his readers suggested a key that he said was expensive so he used another reader to get an alternative which is what I have.
He did not say definitively that he could clone my active fob, he just said he did not see why not.
I think getting a suitable fob for this is why he wanted a few days.
One thing he was clear about and that is there is nothing special about this fob, he said it was dated technology.
This shop has been in the same place for 25 years catering to an upscale client area (NASA) so I'm sure he has seen it all.
I think he said he paid 7K just for the software to do this and gets updates often.
I don't know one way or the other but the two previous locksmiths said if he can't do it it can't be done...

It would be nice to have a spare fob for under 100 bucks! I wish whoever it was at Kawasaki that approved this system would wake up in the morning with every lost FOB up his back side...

Offline fartymarty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1441
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2018, 06:43:31 pm »
I didn't say the FOB is constantly broadcasting.  In fact I said the opposite.

Yeah I know, I was agreeing with you. In the first part I was referring to MOB but I was typing while you were posting so I thought in my "edit" I was making it clearer...guess not.  :(

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2423
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2018, 06:57:46 pm »
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :cool:
is it broadcasting after a signal invokes it, or isn't it...

the handheld reciever is a hammer simplistic tool for saying one way or another..
if a tree falls in the forest, and no body hears it, it still made a sound...

https://www.elprocus.com/different-types-of-modulation-techniques-in-communication-systems/


30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline VirginiaJim

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10532
  • Country: england
  • I've forgotten more than I'll ever know...
    • Kawasaki 1400GTR
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 04:48:48 am »
Just thinking out loud here.....  Let's not 'stifle' someone because they are willing to experiment with the bike against all odds.  Let's give the OP a chance to see what his locksmith can do.  I'm interested in this from a purely scientific viewpoint and I'm not going to lock this thread.  I'll just start removing posts and that won't make me happy at all.
  "LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  08-C14 EA FC ABS 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology.  U.N.I.T is Back!  2016 Indian Roadmaster.

Offline Gabriel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: 00
  • Near Galveston
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2018, 05:20:39 am »
Just thinking out loud here.....  Let's not 'stifle' someone because they are willing to experiment with the bike against all odds.  Let's give the OP a chance to see what his locksmith can do.  I'm interested in this from a purely scientific viewpoint and I'm not going to lock this thread.  I'll just start removing posts and that won't make me happy at all.

Good, because I will post back here everything (in detail) that I find. I think this is a very important topic for all of us for all the reasons we already know.

Offline PH14

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1102
  • Country: 00
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2018, 10:27:31 am »
yep... that works....


Oh, passive chip works, but if you loose the Active fob, that has the chip for the passive immobilizer, it doesn't matter if the battery is in or out... because it was LOST.......

http://youtu.be/QWLBtMz5OuY


 :rotflmao:  Of course, but you can send the fob in and have it cloned. I did read everything, but just happened to key on the assertion that an active fob can't be cloned, still naively dreaming we were still on topic, and forgetting it strayed into area 51 territory . I was commenting based on the fact the fob can be used to clone a new passive chip. I see that you were commenting on the paranoia regarding someone cloning the fob somewhere out in the open for nefarious reason. Carry on.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4734
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2018, 11:33:16 am »
Right Marty, the fob does not continuously broadcast. It only sends out a signal when it receives a signal from the KiPass ECU on the bike. This occurs when the main ignition switch is pressed down and then at a couple (maybe three?) distinct times during the ride: when the bike passes 20 kph in speed, when the bike is shifted into 6th and there may be one more time. Continuous broadcasting by the fob would quickly kill the battery and make it a useless system. As an aside, this is why the KiPass ECU does not 'know' if or when the fob was lost BTW.

As to cloning the RF fob, no reason why that cannot be done- provided the encryption does not get in the way. But as far as what the OP laid out, that can be done. It would take some RF equipment and then signal analysis but both are far more available today, at reasonable prices, than back in, say, the '80's. It would have to work like this: Cloning machine sends out a 'ping' for the fob. The fob responds with its code. Cloning machine reads said code and then programs a similar (but not same brand) RF device to duplicate the same code the fob sent out in the first place. In fact, not only is it possible, it is quite likely such 'cloning' machines are showing up these days with so many remote authorization devices in use world- wide.

The only fall- down to the process would be as I already mentioned, the built in encryption system (Mitsubishi's MISTY in our case). The most simple method of doing this is with a simple algorithm in both units (KiPass ECU and fob): so as a very simple example, the ECU sends out the number 6. The fob gets this number and puts it through the algorithm, which might be to square the original number, then divide by three, then multiply it by 7 and add 32 and subtract 14. Very simple stuff- until one is on the outside, looking in and trying to reverse engineer that algorithm.

Brian

Do you have a documented source (document title with page numbers etc.) for this info???

I find it hard to believe that the fob is constantly ("continually") broadcasting. I've heard this several times from different posts going back to the days where someone said that if you keep your FOB on the bike you need to wrap it up in aluminum foil etc.....I left my FOB on the bike without foil or battery life effect for months. I just don't think it does that, (either thing: continually broadcasts; or run down it's coin battery if left near the bike.) but I'll believe it if a Kawasaki or Mitsubishi document says so.

edit: Ok I was typing slower than you, but I'm in agreement. However, MOB types it with such authority ...that I was hoping he had some documentation to back it up.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1441
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2018, 01:26:43 pm »
:popcorn: :popcorn: :cool:
is it broadcasting after a signal invokes it, or isn't it...

the handheld reciever is a hammer simplistic tool for saying one way or another..
if a tree falls in the forest, and no body hears it, it still made a sound...
https://www.elprocus.com/different-types-of-modulation-techniques-in-communication-systems/

So no official documentation then, just typing out the a.. -->
.....even tho it's (the fob) continually broadcasting.
-------------------------------------------------------------
***************************************
The only fall- down to the process would be as I already mentioned, the built in encryption system (Mitsubishi's MISTY in our case). The most simple method of doing this is with a simple algorithm in both units (KiPass ECU and fob): so as a very simple example, the ECU sends out the number 6. The fob gets this number and puts it through the algorithm, which might be to square the original number, then divide by three, then multiply it by 7 and add 32 and subtract 14. Very simple stuff- until one is on the outside, looking in and trying to reverse engineer that algorithm.

As nice as it would be as a legal owner to be able to get an active FOB at a more reasonable price, I truly hope that an encryption algorithm is involved so that my bike if stolen just becomes a bunch of spare parts for sale and not a viable cheap vehicle for someone else. I know, they would have to follow me as I went through 20 kph, or be nearby with a code interceptor when I started the bike to catch the signal and then have access to the bike to steal it. Still, it would be reassuring to know that even then it couldn't be done. Now these bikes are getting cheaper, but in 25 years my son is going to have a classic on his hands and the value will be much higher than it is now, and I want him to still have an almost un-steal-able bike. (last sentence was tongue in cheek wishful thinking)

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4734
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Concours 14 Passive FOB replacement from locksmith
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2018, 02:27:14 pm »
That would the the downfall of the cloning idea Marty. The example I gave you was far too simple to even be considered of use; in practice, usually part of the algorithm is transmitted along with the code that very algorithm, as part of the larger algorithm built into the devices, making the difficulty of reverse engineering any working system basically impossible. It has been stated that to break modern digital codes would take a supercomputer approximately one year per bit of encryption and MISTY uses either 128 or 140 bit encryption (I cannot remember which). Just my opinion but I think your son's inheritance is very safe..... provided YOU do not mash it in any way having nothing whatsoever to do with KiPass. :-)

As far as theft goes, I do not see how being able to clone an RF fob really makes that any easier. If someone were going to steal and then clone your fob, why not just skip the cloning and use the OEM fob to steal the bike?

As to picking up the transmitted code from a fob on your person, I just do not see how that is even remotely likely, if even possible. Surely you would notice someone standing w/in 5 feet of you, holding a suitcase with a whip antenna on it before you started the bike, right? And as far as following you and picking up the code, again, if ANYTHING was w/in 5 feet of you while riding, I suspect collision would be the far bigger worry.

But the person who brought this up was polite, not arrogant or dismissive of the system or anything else so I try to respond in kind by not attacking or belittling him (her?) and instead just waiting to see what s/he comes back with once s/he has more information. Not sure just when, but this thread did take an unscheduled turn into Obnoxiousville somehow.....

Brian


<snip>

As nice as it would be as a legal owner to be able to get an active FOB at a more reasonable price, I truly hope that an encryption algorithm is involved so that my bike if stolen just becomes a bunch of spare parts for sale and not a viable cheap vehicle for someone else. I know, they would have to follow me as I went through 20 kph, or be nearby with a code interceptor when I started the bike to catch the signal and then have access to the bike to steal it. Still, it would be reassuring to know that even then it couldn't be done. Now these bikes are getting cheaper, but in 25 years my son is going to have a classic on his hands and the value will be much higher than it is now, and I want him to still have an almost un-steal-able bike. (last sentence was tongue in cheek wishful thinking)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com