Author Topic: Throttle body sync question  (Read 673 times)

Offline wb57

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Throttle body sync question
« on: June 05, 2019, 06:00:49 am »
Okay, I've decided I'm going to bite the bullet and check/adjust valves myself.  Got all the parts in my cart with the exception of shims and I've decided against a shim kit for the moment to just get what I need, etc.  Also have plugs, air filter, fuel filter and like that coming.  Question is, should I be thinking about throttle body sync while I'm in there?  What are the symptoms of needing to do this?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 07:24:58 am »
Absolutely- once the bike is naked, at least 80% of the work is already done for most maintenance jobs, T.B. synch included.

The symptoms are slower or sluggish throttle response and a rougher (not rough but not glass smooth) idle. It is one of those things that you will not so much notice it needs to be done as you will notice how much better the bike idles and that the throttle is crisper after you do it.

The C-14 is set up with two banks of two T.B.'s, with a mechanical linkage between the two sets of two (located in the middle of the four T.B.'s). Each individual T.B. will also have an air bleed screw to adjust them individually, while the mechanical link between 1&2 and 3&4 adjusts the two sets together. To try and explain that better, each T.B. can be adjusted but the mechanical link will adjust the first two (1&2) against the second pair (3&4). I mention this because the order is important, adjust the mechanical linkage (center) first and I believe you will find the majority of imbalance is taken care of. The air bleed screws will only need very slight tweaks, if any adjustment is needed but the mechanical link may need significant adjustment.... or at least it always has on the bike's I have balanced, especially those with some mileage on them (30K miles and up).

Putting the hoses on the vacuum nipples on the T.B's is challenging so I typically pick up 6 or 8 feet of rubber vacuum hose before starting, attach all of them and bring them out to the left side of the engine, plug them and number them for later use. That way if you (or anyone else) ever has to do it again at least routing the hoses is already done.

The process is not hard but it is a royal PITA because you have to adjust screws that you cannot see; you will need a long 90 degree driver with two different bits (one straight slow for the T.B. and one JIS (similar to Philips) for the mechanical linkage), a mirror and a flashlight.

Brian

Okay, I've decided I'm going to bite the bullet and check/adjust valves myself.  Got all the parts in my cart with the exception of shims and I've decided against a shim kit for the moment to just get what I need, etc.  Also have plugs, air filter, fuel filter and like that coming.  Question is, should I be thinking about throttle body sync while I'm in there?  What are the symptoms of needing to do this?
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Offline wb57

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2019, 08:24:07 am »
Thank you.  Good info.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 03:17:11 pm »
Absolutely- once the bike is naked, at least 80% of the work is already done for most maintenance jobs, T.B. synch included.

+1.  I woudn't dream of going to all the effort of getting in there and not also performing a TB sync and replacing the air filter, changing the coolant, replacing the (I assume) leaky cam sensor seal, etc.  It is all on my "some day" list...
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 04:02:41 pm »
Thank you.  Good info.

Brian and Max are spot on with the responses, and you were wise to "not" fall prey into buying a shim kit, as you have no idea yeet, just what sizes you need... and the "common/HotCam's kit", is about 90% wasted money, IMHO, knowing that swapping shims around, and if you actually Mic' the head of each "bucket", they can also be swapped, providing you with a 'minimal but exact need" for you shim needs..

Honda dealers stock the HONDA shims, (which are the more finite half sizes) also, so visit a Honda dealer when looking for shims.. I have been very lucky with "swapping" with both Honda, and Kaw dealerships, and I gladly offer them $5 if they let me swap a bunch of needed shims.. goes a long wway on "relationships" with them.

I cannot stress enough, as Brian noted, installing hoses when the top of the engine is completely clear, and access to the throttle body nipples is really easy, run them to the left side,cap them with the caps you pulled off the T/B, and mark them all, and use a "spark plug wire loom clip" ($2) to clip them into to keep things tidy..
You may find that even tho you are prepared to "synch" the throttle bodies, they may be spot on already (you won't know till its all assembled and running again), as when adjusted valves, new air filter, and everything restored, you likely will be right back to the operating spec it had when it left the factory.... and that's a nice feeling.

Murph's Kits put together a completely comprehensive "single source one stop/JOB" kit, based on input of us old timers, that have done this job, it's a really good deal, and complete... and make sure you replace that front cam sensor O-ring during this nekid engine process... well worth the time, the rings are in that kit also..  Hard to beat that price, and if you multi source, you'll never beat that price, due to shipping.

https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?products_id=525&osCsid=0cMn9PM-ERdJZgCXCej7l2

also, look at your plugs, before buying... pretty much every one of us has a set of perfectly good plugs, which we removed, and saved, because we "pre-bought them", just mentioning that.. the plugs do last a long time...

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Offline wb57

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2019, 07:05:10 pm »
Cool.  Had not considered swapping buckets in the equation.  What spooked me on the shim kit was getting three of every size, but needing five or whatever.  Then I've got $80 in a shim kit and STILL need to go buy shims.

I'm good friends with the parts guy at the nearest Honda dealer and all the parts guys at the dealer I bought this bike from.  I'll go that route first.  A couple of the online places (RMATV and DK) have individual shims for less than $2.00 each.  Even if I need 16 for some completely asinine reason, I'm still only in for half the price of a shim kit.

Again, good idea on pre-hosing the throttle bodies.

I had already ordered all the parts contained in Murph's kit.  What I paid is in line with his prices.  And I've already got your O-ring.

Actually, I've had these plugs pretty much since I bought the bike.  If the existing ones look lemony fresh, I'll leave them in.  Probably won't be in this deep again unless something catastrophic happens for a good while.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2019, 07:28:19 pm »
probably the best spent money you could invest, is this set of Mic's... perfect for the job, and very reliable.. lets you verify every shim (don't trust the markings on shims, ever...) and also will be usable to measure the thickness of the "buckets" and record them during the process... well worth the time.. (you can see the internal "ground" surface/spot, )

https://www.mcmaster.com/2114a41  order today, it will be there in 2 days MAX... or sooner...

go back in time, and read this, it may assist/

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=15787.msg192987;topicseen#msg192987

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Offline maxtog

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2019, 09:23:56 pm »
also, look at your plugs, before buying... pretty much every one of us has a set of perfectly good plugs, which we removed, and saved, because we "pre-bought them", just mentioning that.. the plugs do last a long time...

Murphs' kit does look like a good option (and one I will likely take, myself).

I am not sure I have seen a single post saying the plugs ever actually looked like they needed replacement.  Our bike uses iridium plugs, which generally claim a life of 60k-120k miles.  But I do wonder how long they actually last and if they can look OK but maybe not really be OK.  If mileage is significant, I can certainly understand splurging for the extra $35 and replacing them anyway, just because it is so much work to get to them, why not?
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Offline kzz1king

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2019, 06:50:43 am »
For the amount of work and the few dollars I put plugs in
 Not because mine liked bad but because I decided I wasn't going to that place again. :P
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Offline Kman

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 12:29:20 pm »
Regarding spark plugs, there are other factors to consider besides tip wear. One is corrosion between the threads and the cylinder head which can happen over time if the plugs are never taken out. Another is leaking in the seal between the ceramic body of the plug and its metallic core--its an issue particularly on turbo engines with high cylinder pressures.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2019, 02:28:01 pm »
Spark plugs absolutely will and do corrode inside an aluminum head (as the C-14 is) and if they seize, that is a painful fix.

One thing I do on all Al head engines I run into is to pull the spark plug(s) and hit them with a very light coat of anti- seize. That will end the problem.

On my own C-14, I did a major maintenance (valve lash check, spark plug, air filter, T.B. synch) at 25K miles and while I did have new plugs, the 'old' ones looked so good that I anti- seized them and re- installed them for another 25K. At 50K I did change them but it was not necessary because they still gapped w/in 0.001" of spec. and were perfectly clean all the way down the porcelain stem. For the matter, the lash was just a hair outside of spec. on one valve at 25K (I did not change any shims though), all were in spec. at 50K. The T.B.'s were good at 25K but out about 3-4 mm / Hg at 50K (I like to see them all w/in 1 mm/Hg and would not accept anything above 2 mm/Hg). And of course the air filter was absolutely filthy at both 25K and 50K.

Back to the plugs: for some unknown reason, almost all of the seized spark plugs I have personally seen are in small utility engines and all but one time in Hondas. The only thing I can think of is that Hondas run so well and reliably (seriously) that they probably go a lot (LOT!) longer on the O.E. plug(s) than, say, a Briggs & Stratton or a Tecumseh. It does kinda' make one wince when one cranks out a spark plug from a Honda head at about 30- 40 ft. lbs (wild guess but FAR tougher than they should turn) on every single turn only to find the spark plug threads full of aluminum. :-(   Especially if we were in a remote location and were counting on that engine to continue working, which has happened more than once.

Brian

Regarding spark plugs, there are other factors to consider besides tip wear. One is corrosion between the threads and the cylinder head which can happen over time if the plugs are never taken out. Another is leaking in the seal between the ceramic body of the plug and its metallic core--its an issue particularly on turbo engines with high cylinder pressures.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 05:37:59 pm »
and, as I did note; we all have perfectly good spark plugs, we removed, and await the time we really need to install them...
I always (since I began to work for my dad) ran the threads against a wire wheel, cleaning them carefully, and checking gaps...
 the Iridiums, are bulletproof in difference, and longevity is the pitfall laid upon the spark plug industry... because they last sooooo damned long..   I like that...

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Offline wb57

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 12:40:33 pm »
Honda dealers stock the HONDA shims, (which are the more finite half sizes) also, so visit a Honda dealer when looking for shims.. I have been very lucky with "swapping" with both Honda, and Kaw dealerships, and I gladly offer them $5 if they let me swap a bunch of needed shims.. goes a long wway on "relationships" with them.

Just got off the phone with the last of the dealers in the area.  They don't have shims in the parts OR the service department.  They order them all as needed.  I can order them faster and cheaper than they can get them to me.  Really starting to lose interest in spending money at any dealer for anything.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 02:53:52 pm »
Just got off the phone with the last of the dealers in the area.  They don't have shims in the parts OR the service department.  They order them all as needed.  I can order them faster and cheaper than they can get them to me.  Really starting to lose interest in spending money at any dealer for anything.

That seems ridiculous.  So this adds at least a few if not several days to every job.  And if they then get sent a wrong size or they mismeasured, it adds yet more days.  I can't imagine why a dealer service department wouldn't have full shim kits on-site!
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline wb57

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Re: Throttle body sync question
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 03:29:37 pm »
That seems ridiculous.  So this adds at least a few if not several days to every job.  And if they then get sent a wrong size or they mismeasured, it adds yet more days.  I can't imagine why a dealer service department wouldn't have full shim kits on-site!

Nor I.  I'm completely baffled.  I understand not tying up huge sums in inventory, but valve shims are a maintenance item.  Or at least they should be treated as such, from where I sit.  Yeah, we go a long time between valve checks, but dirt bikes are far more frequent.  I can get Pro-X shims in .025 intervals from Rocky Mountain ATV for under $2.00/each and they keep all sizes in stock.  Oh, and I get everything I order from them in 2 days or less.  Really trying to figure out why I spend a dime at any dealership anymore.
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