Author Topic: TPS "----", not battery  (Read 682 times)

Offline maxtog

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TPS "----", not battery
« on: August 25, 2019, 10:09:29 am »
Well, solve one problem and another appears.  I have noticed over the last few trips that my front tps (tire pressure sensor) was reading "---".  I have seen this happen in the past, but it is very rare.  No longer.  Yesterday it was absent on my way to a destination, but returned after the next start on the way home.  Today it was absent my entire trip, across 4 starts (initial start, break time, stupid draw bridge, then for gas).  Never a low battery indicator.  Rear one works fine every time.

These are the newer model (potted) sensors, installed under warranty.  My first ones failed with low batteries on 4/2014 with 9K miles (were only 3 years old), with months of random battery warnings, depending on temperature)- very disappointing.  So these are now 4 years old with 32K miles on them, so it was looking pretty good (maybe they really have fixed the design).

I don't recall many, if any, posts showing these symptoms.  Usually they are people who have gotten low battery warnings, or bought their bike used, with already dead sensors.  I am thinking maybe the centrifugal switch is sticking?

Starting to document each occurrence with photos as proof, if this escalates.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline lather

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 10:19:32 am »
I had one (old style) that got intermittent. Would work only about 5% of the time. I believe it was the "centrifugal switch".
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Offline jwh20

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 10:35:05 am »
While it could be the "centrifugal switch" (as you call it) but that seems quite unlikely.  These TPMS modules use a modern IC accelerometer (i.e. a chip) which is not particularly prone to mechanical failure.  More likely it's the battery itself or connections to the battery.

Either way, there is probably no resolution other than getting a replacement unit.  Some have attempted repairs on these new-style potted modules but I think results have been mixed.  The fact that it shows "---" at times indicates that the unit is still sending data to the bike sometimes.  After a certain amount of time not hearing from the, like if you remove it entirely, the bike will stop flashing that message.

Offline fartymarty

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 11:30:59 am »
I think Fred Harmon has developed a technique to change the batteries on the newer TPMS. However, I haven't researched it since you're too lazy to take care of an air cleaner filter, I'm assuming that taking the TPMS off and mailing it to Arkansas is out of the question. I guess you could always harass your mechanic friend into doing the research for you, but then...hows that harassing going for you? :)

Offline maxtog

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 11:36:35 am »
While it could be the "centrifugal switch" (as you call it) but that seems quite unlikely.  These TPMS modules use a modern IC accelerometer (i.e. a chip) which is not particularly prone to mechanical failure.  More likely it's the battery itself or connections to the battery.

That does seem more likely, then.

Quote
Either way, there is probably no resolution other than getting a replacement unit.  Some have attempted repairs on these new-style potted modules but I think results have been mixed.

Mine is under extended warranty still.  Although my 9 years of warranty will be up in April 2020.  So I wouldn't attempt a repair, even if it were the older (serviceable) model.

Quote
The fact that it shows "---" at times indicates that the unit is still sending data to the bike sometimes.  After a certain amount of time not hearing from the, like if you remove it entirely, the bike will stop flashing that message.

I wasn't and haven't gotten any message, error, or warning.  Just when I flip to the TPS screen, it shows "---" for the front and a valid number for the rear.   It acts the same as it does normally, when one first starts the bike and is hasn't gone far enough yet to trigger the sensor to wake up and send data.  It just never seems to wake up.  Except those times it does (which was not at all today).  I will keep monitoring it and documenting.

As much as I like having TPS, they really can be annoying.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2019, 11:38:33 am »
I think Fred Harmon has developed a technique to change the batteries on the newer TPMS.

I don't think it is a dead battery, although it could be an intermittent connection.

Quote
However, I haven't researched it since you're too lazy to take care of an air cleaner filter, I'm assuming that taking the TPMS off and mailing it to Arkansas is out of the question. I guess you could always harass your mechanic friend into doing the research for you, but then...hows that harassing going for you? :)

Oooooh, you are so mean!  Stop that!
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2019, 12:16:45 pm »
That --- reading indicates that there is no signal for that tire pressure sensor 'slot'. It means the sensor has failed, most likely due to a dead battery although it is remotely possible that the sensor itself has failed.

The 'low battery' warning is actually transmitted from the sensor, which means the sensor is actually working and sending information via RF. When the sensor sends nothing, or is not present, the LCD readout uses the filler '---' because it has no information. At first this seems backwards because we tend to think the display or ECU on the bike is making all of the choices but the low battery warning is actually generated in and sent from the sender itself.

As others have mentioned, potted sensors can have the battery changed; we had one open at tech. day last spring although we did not actually remove the battery. The battery itself is not potted, meaning the epoxy makes a shell and seal around the chamber the battery is inside of. But there is a learning curve to changing the newer types and as I have not gotten to the end of it, I cannot really help you out very much. Of course you can R&R the sensor while the tire is on the wheel, and while the wheel is on the bike at least.

Brian

Well, solve one problem and another appears.  I have noticed over the last few trips that my front tps (tire pressure sensor) was reading "---".  I have seen this happen in the past, but it is very rare.  No longer.  Yesterday it was absent on my way to a destination, but returned after the next start on the way home.  Today it was absent my entire trip, across 4 starts (initial start, break time, stupid draw bridge, then for gas).  Never a low battery indicator.  Rear one works fine every time.

These are the newer model (potted) sensors, installed under warranty.  My first ones failed with low batteries on 4/2014 with 9K miles (were only 3 years old), with months of random battery warnings, depending on temperature)- very disappointing.  So these are now 4 years old with 32K miles on them, so it was looking pretty good (maybe they really have fixed the design).

I don't recall many, if any, posts showing these symptoms.  Usually they are people who have gotten low battery warnings, or bought their bike used, with already dead sensors.  I am thinking maybe the centrifugal switch is sticking?

Starting to document each occurrence with photos as proof, if this escalates.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2019, 12:39:23 pm »
I do not think that is quite how the system works. The '---' means there is no signal from the sensor, not that there is occasional sensor info.. The dashes will never disappear from the LCD screen until 1) power is cycled to the ECU (battery disconnected for some duration, then reconnected) and 2) after powering up, there are no tire pressure sensors at any time. If one sender sends a packet one time, the LCD readout is "activated" for lack of a better word (software switched on) and the display will then again show info. about both tire pressure senders, whether one or both fail to transmit.

Fairly often people will disconnect the main battery from the bike, for whatever reason, then reconnect it only to find the page that shows tire pressure data has 'disappeared'. And it really did- until one of the sensors transmits, and the display page will again reappear with places for data from both sensors, even before the other sensor sends data. If a sensor is truly dead or broken, the same thing happens with the sensor display showing two places for front and rear sensor data from that time forward.

Brian


<snip>

Either way, there is probably no resolution other than getting a replacement unit.  Some have attempted repairs on these new-style potted modules but I think results have been mixed.  The fact that it shows "---" at times indicates that the unit is still sending data to the bike sometimes.  After a certain amount of time not hearing from the, like if you remove it entirely, the bike will stop flashing that message.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline maxtog

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2019, 03:12:05 pm »
That --- reading indicates that there is no signal for that tire pressure sensor 'slot'. It means the sensor has failed, most likely due to a dead battery although it is remotely possible that the sensor itself has failed.  The 'low battery' warning is actually transmitted from the sensor, which means the sensor is actually working and sending information via RF. When the sensor sends nothing, or is not present, the LCD readout uses the filler '---' because it has no information.

This is why I suspect there is a failure in the sensor or connection to the battery, not a low or dead battery.  On my previous (original) sensors, I had lots of "low battery" warnings for months, usually when the temps were cold.  On this sensor, I have NEVER had a single warning, ever.  It is hard to believe it can go from working perfectly to a dead battery with no warning, ever.  I suppose it is possible.  Perhaps these newer models don't even send a low-battery warning, or have yet another design flaw where the threshold was set too low (below its ability to even operate).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 04:55:55 am »
Sensor is dead, get it replaced.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2019, 05:49:05 am »
I had both Sensors replaced under warranty earlier this year. I just had the same thing happen with the front tire sensor on Saturday. After about 4-5 miles it started working again. No issues the rest of the day. Had been working perfectly all day prior to this occurrence. I was probably about 250 miles into a 400 mile ride when it happened. Stopped for fuel and it took a while to establish a signal evidently.
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Offline PH14

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2019, 09:43:13 am »
After having my sensors replaced more than once under warranty, i decided to let them die. My front has been giving the low battery warning for well over a year, very annoying to say the least. Had it not hijacked the display, I would have had it replaced before the warranty was up in June. Now it had finally died, and I no longer get the warning. I was able to take a nice, peaceful ride to Iowa from Pennsylvania, without having to continually press the two buttons, and endure the bright red light for 800 miles each way. I'm much happier now.   :D  Unfortunately, I will have to endure it again when the rear goes bad.

Offline olie

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 10:23:48 am »
if you decide to let die the TPMS without replacement, assuming you no longer have warranty, the sensors can be disabled through a software removal.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 03:31:06 pm »
I had both Sensors replaced under warranty earlier this year.

In a 2017?  That is not good news.

Quote
I just had the same thing happen with the front tire sensor on Saturday. After about 4-5 miles it started working again.

Mine has been doing that on the front for a month or more, but it always came back after a long while.  Last weekend was the first I have seen it never come back, and across several starts.  Need more data before I am sure it is really dead or stuck off.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: TPS "----", not battery
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2019, 03:34:23 pm »
if you decide to let die the TPMS without replacement, assuming you no longer have warranty, the sensors can be disabled through a software removal.

That is a good idea.  Although still pricey when you don't have KDS.

I know I said this before but....
Meanwhile....

The ORIGINAL tire pressure sensors (all 4) on my 2009 Infiniti are still working fine.  A little less mileage than my Concours, but 2 years older (10.5+ years old; I hope I didn't curse them by posting this).  Why is this such a feat for Kawasaki? Especially after a total redesign?
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc