Author Topic: First (and probably last) Valve Adjustment  (Read 7467 times)

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8434
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
First (and probably last) Valve Adjustment
« on: October 26, 2019, 03:46:46 pm »
8.5 years, 43,428 miles.  First day.

I had no idea it was going to be this difficult to do.  It took two of us 5 HOURS just to get to the point of measuring the valve clearance and then the shims and buckets and then stopped (because we are exhausted and I will have to order lots of shims).  My garage is a disaster.  And there are so many freaky mounts and connectors and crap, I am scared we will never get it back together.

1in .002/.002 2in .005/.005 3in .002/.002 4in .002/.002
1ex .007/.007 2ex .007/.007 3ex .007/.007 4ex .008/.007


My mechanic friend says that might explain the running problem I am having at low speed/throttle.  Only 3 of 16 valves are in spec, and 1 of those barely.

13 buckets were 0.106, 2 were 0.105 and 1 was 0.107
Shims were all between 0.089 and 0.093 (most in the middle of that range).

It was necessary to remove the right engine mount.  The lower bolt which was supplied for the Canyon Cages was extremely tight and hard to move.  IT BROKE IN THE MOUNT after about 1 turn.  So that is going to be a huge pain in the ass, I'm sure.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 03:15:30 pm by maxtog »
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2019, 04:34:09 pm »
https://youtu.be/fn1R-5p_j5c



WE HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU FOR YEARS...
to make it happen...

so... a musical interlude is reasonable for assisting... because you were ... numb...

(we love ya man, really we do...)

https://youtu.be/x-xTttimcNk


when you complete the task, we will all applaud you, and pat you on the back... you can do it... take lots of pictures....

and you will shine brightly, and have a cigar, when it's done...

https://youtu.be/tbdpv7G_PPg


https://youtu.be/54W8kktFE_o


46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 04:54:58 pm »
but right about now I'm betting you would be singing this song....

https://youtu.be/DPL_SV3n7IU




rock on man, you can do it.....

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Freddy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Country: au
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 05:05:07 pm »
From what I've seen posted on forums over the years and experienced in doing 2 bikes myself with similar miles, those clearances are something of a shock - in fact the 'worst' I've ever seen reported.  It's usually 'all were within spec' or '2-3 were just outside spec.'  The two 1400s I did were all within spec but were adjusted to upper limit.  I'm somewhat sceptical of you findings, I must confess. 

I know MOB advocates measuring and swapping buckets to save on shims, but in my view, that makes an already challenging job even more so.  Shims are relatively cheap and if you hafta wait an extra day or 3, so what. 
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 05:54:47 pm »
well, with all respect, I find his readings very believable, and realistic.. considering he has NEVER done a prior inspection/adjust.. in 43k miles... or 8 years... the bike was "as delivered", and just ridden...

I use a very precise 4 place micrometer to do my measurements, as those .0005" things add up. I also use stacked feeler stock with increments to get those .0005", or other, measurments.. they do actually matter to me, when I am doing anything precise, and analyzing something, which may end up being "printed" for other folks.. just my Engineering backround that makes me do it like that.

As for measuring the "head thickness' on the buckets", I found a great amount of "adjust-ability" could be afforded, as those parts are pretty much "pulled from a bin/and combined with th shims" during assembly; there is a great amount of "swap", usability when you begin to measure all the components, and the only thing that is consumed, is "time", but when you want a perfect "combo" in fitup, time is moot.. especially when you do the job in the "off season" like when i did mine last.

It's all about "how much effort" you are willing to do, and as I am pretty analytical, and measure stuff all the time... it just made sense to me. It did allow me to make swaps of shims much easier, and if I had to buy a shim, that was not a big deal, but if I swapped a bucket or 2 and relinquished the need of buying twice the amount of shims.. that was worth it. Also freed up the options for future adjustments.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Freddy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Country: au
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2019, 06:01:47 pm »
 :thumbs:  The 2 I've done hadn't been opened previously, just for the record.   :chugbeer:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4894
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2019, 06:01:55 pm »
Yeah, that is the furthest out of spec. I have ever heard of on a Kawi 1400 engine (C or ZX). I too am somewhat suspect; perhaps you were measuring the clearance on the clearance ramps rather than the true 'back side' (smallest diameter) of the cam? Not throwing rocks at you, just very curious about the 0.003" deviation, especially since it is so consistent.

And yep, it is a pretty involved job doing a valve check / lash adjustment on this bike. Once you get all her clothes off, you find she is wearing petticoats, suspenders everywhere and wrapped in wires and hoses.

You may want to consider doing yourself a favor and putting rubber hoses on each throttle body vernturi nipple and routing them to the left side of the bike- honest, it will save you a ton of time and effort the next time you balance the throttle bodies. I am assuming you ARE balancing the T.B's while this far into the engine.....

It is not a particularly difficult job but it is quite involved, and must be done in a pretty specific order. Methodology is the key to success IMO.

Best of luck with this project.

Brian

8.5 years, 43,428 miles.  First day.

I had no idea it was going to be this difficult to do.  It took two of us 5 HOURS just to get to the point of measuring the valve clearance and then the shims and buckets and then stopped (because we are exhausted and I will have to order lots of shims).  My garage is a disaster.  And there are so many freaky mounts and connectors and crap, I am scared we will never get it back together.

1in .002/.002 2in .005/.005 3in .002/.002 4in .002/.002
1ex .007/.007 2ex .007/.007 3ex .007/.007 4ex .008/.007


My mechanic friend says that might explain the running problem I am having at low speed/throttle.  Only 3 of 16 valves are in spec, and 1 of those barely.

13 buckets were 0.106, 2 were 0.105 and 1 was 0.107
Shims were all between 0.089 and 0.093 (most in the middle of that range).

It was necessary to remove the right engine mount.  The lower bolt which was supplied for the Canyon Cages was extremely tight and hard to move.  IT BROKE IN THE MOUNT after about 1 turn.  So that is going to be a huge pain in the ass, I'm sure.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8434
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2019, 08:52:26 pm »
Yeah, that is the furthest out of spec. I have ever heard of on a Kawi 1400 engine (C or ZX). I too am somewhat suspect; perhaps you were measuring the clearance on the clearance ramps rather than the true 'back side' (smallest diameter) of the cam? Not throwing rocks at you, just very curious about the 0.003" deviation, especially since it is so consistent.

I suppose anything is possible, but my friend is an extremely experienced master mechanic who has been doing this his whole life- thousands of vehicles of every type.  I have to go with his numbers (I was not the one measuring).

Quote
And yep, it is a pretty involved job doing a valve check / lash adjustment on this bike. Once you get all her clothes off, you find she is wearing petticoats, suspenders everywhere and wrapped in wires and hoses.

It is at least 400% more complicated and miserable than I thought it would be.  And putting it back together is going to be worse, I simply can't imagine getting it all back correctly.  AND I have to spend hours on the broken bolt.  I am probably going to be down for weeks :(

Quote
You may want to consider doing yourself a favor and putting rubber hoses on each throttle body vernturi nipple and routing them to the left side of the bike- honest, it will save you a ton of time and effort the next time you balance the throttle bodies.

Honestly, I am *NEVER* doing this again.

Quote
I am assuming you ARE balancing the T.B's while this far into the engine.....

Yes
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Freddy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Country: au
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2019, 09:02:45 pm »
 :thumbs:   :goodpost:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Pilgrim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: us
  • '12 Black
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2019, 05:51:01 am »

 :popcorn:

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5796
  • Country: us
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2019, 06:05:32 am »
Good luck Max!

This sounds like a nightmare. Like one of those dreams where you're late for class and you have no idea where the classroom is, and yeah, you're naked too.  :o
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8434
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2019, 06:11:12 am »
Ug
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8434
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 08:22:38 am »
I suppose anything is possible, but my friend is an extremely experienced master mechanic who has been doing this his whole life- thousands of vehicles of every type.  I have to go with his numbers (I was not the one measuring).

I discussed it with him this morning.  He said:

"Measured per manual, which is not my normal method.  I prefer to measure directly on the center of the cam lobe heel. This means setting the crank at 90 and turning the engine four times (180), doing one set of intake and one set of exhaust per. The manual gives the more common way of setting the crank at TDC and doing two sets of each with the lobes canted 45 over. I did check to make sure the lobes were in the correct position each time."

And I would add:  It is highly unlikely only two of the measurements would be "good" while all the rest being "bad."  And since the exhaust seem far more close to spec than the intake (except one cylinder) that tends to indicate it is not a systemic methodology error.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline VirginiaJim

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10981
  • Country: england
  • I've forgotten more than I'll ever know...
    • Kawasaki 1400GTR
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 08:49:24 am »
If you recall, I did express some minor scepticism on getting this done in one day, my friend.  All my valve checks were done by the Kawi Tech at the dealer.  Based on anecdotal evidence here I wouldn't have touched that job with a 10 foot pole.  Good luck!  On the positive side, once this has been completed, you probably will never have to check it again.  My current ride has hydraulic lifters...no valve checks ever again for me.   ;)
"LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! 2008 C14 Moved on to a new home, 2016 RM traded in.

Online gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5632
  • Country: us
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: First Valve Adjustment / TB Sync
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 03:07:40 pm »
If you recall, I did express some minor scepticism on getting this done in one day, my friend.  All my valve checks were done by the Kawi Tech at the dealer.  Based on anecdotal evidence here I wouldn't have touched that job with a 10 foot pole.  Good luck!  On the positive side, once this has been completed, you probably will never have to check it again.  My current ride tractor has hydraulic lifters...no valve checks ever again for me.   ;)

fify
Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.