Author Topic: Nasty Snatch  (Read 9377 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2019, 04:59:36 PM »
if you count eco mode {or whatever max' wants to insist on calling it ::)}),

I call it what the manual calls it- FEAM (fuel economy assistance mode), but I know what is meant by "eco", as long as we aren't talking about the confusing indicators on the dash.

Quote
and in the above scenario there has been no change...ever. It always does it. No I haven't tried a throttle tamer, but I think I can simulate one by being extra careful and gradually  adding throttle which I have tried and got nasty snatch regardless.

You might try one, but there is a certain amount of "snatchiness" that seems to be in the very soul of the Concours.  However, it is also my experience that both the Shoodaben reflash and Throttle Tamer help considerably with the issue.  (The Guhl flash doesn't address it at all; I suspect Ivan's doesn't much, but I don't know).

Quote
maybe all shaft drives do that as I've only owned one of those.

I don't see how it could relate to shaft drive.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline O.C.

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2019, 01:36:27 AM »
Hi all

Thank you all so much for your replies.  Very informative.  I think as much as anything, I wondered if my bike had the flies- I am planning on a full service in Spring, but can't take the bike off the road as it's my 'daily drive'.

My bike is registered on 1st August 2007 and I'm in England

The title was intentional :)

I've adjusted the cables and idle speed.  Have stuff to do, so wont test it until my commute tomorrow, but I think it will make a big difference.

There is a UK forum which may also be of help /interest to you , registration  is required its f.o.c  ;)   

http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/   
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2019, 05:49:54 AM »
Throttle Tamer to the rescue. (click to zoom)

[smg id=635]

Stock tube on the left Throttle Tamer on the right.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2019, 06:10:39 AM »
Just my personal opinion and experience but taking all the slack out of the throttle cables has, at least so far, cured the throttle snatch on several C-14's I have adjusted and ridden, including my own. In fact, the difference between slightly loose and no slack throttle cables is almost amazing. Of course I have to be careful doing this so that there is no additional strain put on the throttle body throttle rod, and that is easy to do by not over- tightening the cables but making the adjustment slowly while carefully feeling for throttle cable slack has worked well for me.

Shaft drive bikes have more drive train play due to gear clearance and so present more of a problem with throttle snatch that chain drive bikes do. Plus chain drive bikes have a little give in the chain as it comes up to full tightness when rolling on the throttle while shaft drive bikes simply use up the clearance and the gears slam into each other.

Brian


<snip>

I've had all three flashes* (4 if you count the OEM factory flash; 5 if you count eco mode {or whatever max' wants to insist on calling it ::)}), I've had my throttle adjusted per the owner's manual,
 and I have it as Steve said to adjust it where it has no play at all....and in the above scenario there has been no change...ever. It always does it. Now with over 90,000 miles on my bike it could be
that I have excessive drive line wear, however my C14 has done this since new in 2011. No I haven't tried a throttle tamer, but I think I can simulate one by being extra careful and gradually
 adding throttle which I have tried and got nasty snatch regardless.  Frankly I give up, it's just going to stay nasty. I still love the bike anyway and I like two of the 3 after market flashes (I'm not getting
 into the which is better wars, let's leave that on the other forum where it belongs) but none of them solved this problem.
Before someone says all bikes do that, my Dr650 doesn't, maybe all shaft drives do that as I've only owned one of those.

* Guhl; Steve's Decel; Ivan's
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 11:56:15 AM by B.D.F. »
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Offline Pillow

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2019, 11:27:27 AM »
Rode much better on the test commute.  Problem feels 50%+ better.  If that's as good as I can get it, then I'll be ok with that.  One thing that does bother me is when 'overclosing' the throttle, the bike stalls.  And only when cold.  It did it before I made the adjustment, I just forgot to mention it.

Offline Y0ssarian

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2019, 02:05:08 PM »
I've found that fresh gear oil in the rear seems to help, also.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2019, 03:02:39 PM »
This is starting to look like that 'how to keep your rocket pointed up' thread.....

Brian

I've found that fresh gear oil in the rear seems to help, also.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2019, 03:19:58 PM »
Shaft drive bikes have more drive train play due to gear clearance and so present more of a problem with throttle snatch that chain drive bikes do.

Never thought of it that way.

Quote
Plus chain drive bikes have a little give in the chain as it comes up to full tightness when rolling on the throttle while shaft drive bikes simply use up the clearance and the gears slam into each other.

But our shaft drive has a cush-drive that would absorb at least some shock (or at least isolate that from transmitting to the ground), acting like a "stretching" unit, too, no?
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2019, 03:25:05 PM »
Rode much better on the test commute.  Problem feels 50%+ better.  If that's as good as I can get it, then I'll be ok with that.  One thing that does bother me is when 'overclosing' the throttle, the bike stalls.  And only when cold.  It did it before I made the adjustment, I just forgot to mention it.

Hmm.  Well, I can say I had a LOT of problems with cold stalling and ride performance when my valves started getting way out of spec.... to the point it was doing it not just when cold, either.  Let's hope that isn't your issue, too.  In which case I would ask how many miles does the bike have, and at what point was the valve lash last checked/adjusted?

Otherwise, what is your cold idle speed?  You can adjust that up some to compensate and it might help some...
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2019, 03:29:50 PM »
Chain drive bikes also have a cush drive and it serves the same purpose. But no matter how good the 'fix' or damper is, nothing beats not generating that metallic clack in the first place and chain drives just do not generate it. So yes, the cush drive does make a shaft drive motorcycle transfer power better and buffers it but shaft drives just cannot be as smooth as chains or belts.

As a chain drive comes up due to tension, it gets stiffer and more resistant to further stiffening. But it is a curve over time, not a sudden jolt and that is why chain drive motorcycles (and all machinery for that matter) are so well buffered regarding power transmission. Add to that that chain drives absorb <almost> no power and they really are a great way to transmit power on weight sensitive vehicles and other machinery. The only downside is that on a motorcycle, they are external and exposed to the environment; change the roller design to a timing chain design and seal it in an oil bath environment and it would approach nirvana, though at the price of complexity and a very involved sealing system. Hence shaft drives.....

Brian

Never thought of it that way.

But our shaft drive has a cush-drive that would absorb at least some shock (or at least isolate that from transmitting to the ground), acting like a "stretching" unit, too, no?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline chi-gpz1100

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2019, 03:38:18 PM »
I think the way the throttle is closed plays a role in this as well.  It's a minute thing but rather than abruptly closing it, try easing into the closed position (if that makes sense) then easing out.  Last bike was chain driven ('09 fz1).  It too had some driveline lash in throttle transitions. It was a rocket alright, with just shy of 150hp at the wheel (thanks fuel moto). Easing in the transitions is key (as is the case with many things........).

Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 03:47:45 PM »
I think the way the throttle is closed plays a role in this as well.  It's a minute thing but rather than abruptly closing it, try easing into the closed position (if that makes sense) then easing out. 

That is exactly how I describe "snatch"- abrupt power on AND off, making it difficult to control and finesse.  It was a HUGE adjustment coming from the ZRX and moving to the Concours.... and I could just not get used to it.  It wasn't until I installed the Throttle Tamer that I felt like I was in-control once again.  All it does is change the rate as which the throttle is opened and closed in the lower segments (making it require more movement).  A nice side-effect is the lined-metal tube seems much smoother.  The C-14 was my first fuel-injected bike, which I think was part of it; I have to wonder if later/different models act the same.

Anyway, I recommend people NOT install a Throttle Tamer if they are going to reflash with Shoodaben.  Flash first and see if that is enough change (because it does help) and if not, then take further action.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2019, 03:50:58 PM »
Chain drive bikes also have a cush drive and it serves the same purpose. [...]

All good info.

Quote
But no matter how good the 'fix' or damper is, nothing beats not generating that metallic clack in the first place and chain drives just do not generate it. So yes, the cush drive does make a shaft drive motorcycle transfer power better and buffers it but shaft drives just cannot be as smooth as chains or belts.

While I can agree with all that, it isn't what I think of as "snatch" (see previous post), nor have I found those effects to be of much consequence.  But I can understand if some people might feel something like that and throw it into the "snatch" category.  Although I don't.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline strum

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2019, 08:27:45 PM »
 I know no will run out and get a full exhaust to solve this but one pleasant surprise I have with my new exhaust and Steve's Area P MRP flash is the best on off throttle of any I have tried.  I cant find a snatchy spot any where.

Offline Boomer

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2019, 02:42:41 AM »
Welcome Pillow  8)
Nice initial subject line  :rotflmao:

You will never get rid of the snatch, but correct adjustment of the cables and one of SiSFs flashes helps greatly (I have the Decel flash but have no experience of other flashes, so can we please not start the flash wars here?).
I used to filter (lane-split for the Yanks ;)) some 20-30 miles every day on the M25/A127 and when you are constantly switching between acceleration and deceleration like that the snatch gets REALLY irritating. On a normal ride it's barely noticeable but in traffic, especially with such a powerful bike, it's a PITA.
My carburettor fuelled GTR1000 doesn't have any snatch at all, despite having shaft drive.

I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2019, 05:37:15 AM »
I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

Or, conversely, anyone who has a ZX14 and can share how "snatchy" or not it is, compared to the C14?
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline O.C.

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2019, 07:15:16 AM »
Welcome Pillow  8)
Nice initial subject line  :rotflmao:

You will never get rid of the snatch, but correct adjustment of the cables and one of SiSFs flashes helps greatly (I have the Decel flash but have no experience of other flashes, so can we please not start the flash wars here?).
I used to filter (lane-split for the Yanks ;)) some 20-30 miles every day on the M25/A127 and when you are constantly switching between acceleration and deceleration like that the snatch gets REALLY irritating. On a normal ride it's barely noticeable but in traffic, especially with such a powerful bike, it's a PITA.
My carburettor fuelled GTR1000 doesn't have any snatch at all, despite having shaft drive.

I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:

I owned a Yamaha 1200 Super Tenere which was shaft drive and injected, it was only slightly 'snatchy' but it was a twin cylinder machine and had 2 mapping options Town or Sport modes, it also had fly by wire combined YCC-T Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle.... it was still a little 'snatchy'   ::)   

FWIW, my pal who also owns a Super Ten has had his bike Chipped and he says it is now a smooth as silk  ;)   
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Offline Pillow

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2019, 10:37:32 AM »
Hmm.  Well, I can say I had a LOT of problems with cold stalling and ride performance when my valves started getting way out of spec.... to the point it was doing it not just when cold, either.  Let's hope that isn't your issue, too.  In which case I would ask how many miles does the bike have, and at what point was the valve lash last checked/adjusted?

Otherwise, what is your cold idle speed?  You can adjust that up some to compensate and it might help some...

It's done about 34, 000, only 3, 000 of which are mine.  Seller said it had recently been done, but I was planning on checking in the warmer weather, when I would do 'everything'.  Cold idle speed is slightly slower than when warm, plus as I mentioned, if you overclose the throttle, it stalls (doesn't do this when warm).

Offline Pillow

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2019, 10:41:27 AM »
I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:

My previous main bike was an ST1300.  It would do it, but to a MUCH lesser extent.  There were threads on getting rid of the throttle snatch (my mate's one is sorted). 

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Nasty Snatch
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2019, 01:08:55 PM »
It's done about 34, 000, only 3, 000 of which are mine.  Seller said it had recently been done, but I was planning on checking in the warmer weather, when I would do 'everything'.  Cold idle speed is slightly slower than when warm, plus as I mentioned, if you overclose the throttle, it stalls (doesn't do this when warm).


Set the idle about 1100 or so when warm...
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