Author Topic: Weed  (Read 2610 times)

Offline Conrad

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Re: Weed
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2019, 07:25:41 am »
mmmm...maybe.....why do you ask?    8)

 :rotflmao:
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Weed
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2019, 07:30:16 am »
snip...
If we're on the subject of driving impaired, one cannot leave out cell phone usage.  I'll take a stoner any day of the week vs alcohol impairment or hand held cell phone user. 
Punishments for driving impaired (any reason) should be harsh.

snip...
I couldn't agree more.  Sleepy driving, trying to read a book, taking an over-the-counter cold medicine, screaming at the kids in the back seat, not wearing necessary glasses, applying makeup, messing with the stereo, texting, trying to tie a shoe.  Bad decisions are just bad.

It has little to do with the cause of [voluntary] impairment and everything to do with the bad outcomes.

100% agreement here! Don't forget eating and driving and all combinations of the above, such as. Eating while on the phone AND 'driving'. That's a winning combination right there. Look Ma, no hands. 
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Weed
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2019, 05:12:30 pm »
That is actually not a fair comparison.  Although tobacco (depending on how it is used and how much it is used) can greatly damage the health of the user, nicotine generally doesn't.  But health impact really isn't the issue.  Nicotine can be addictive, but it is not a "mind/reality altering drug" like marijuana and illicit drugs are.  A much more valid comparison of nicotine is with caffeine (America's most popular drug).

Alcohol, however, is a very valid comparison, especially to point out the hypocrisy of the "drug war."

Think about that for a moment... Tobacco, was a mainstay of economy, that founded the America's.. it's a deadly toxin, there can be no dispute, nothing about any use of tobacco, can be made acceptable in any means, shape, or form, under the guise as "safe"... what a load of b/s, and associated ignorance to try to say different.

The complete legislative history, against Cannabis, has been because of "molly hatchet" mentality, while even tho we had "prohibition", alcohol was brought back, and taxed, as was tobacco,
from the start.. and the tobacco money went back to England, not the USA, as we weren't 'the USA" during that time.. the inception of all the Cannabis laws, are a direct result of racial discrimination, based upon a proposed "taxable product", when it came about, and never came to fruition, because even tho permits, tax stamps, and some semblance of government "attention", it was quashed, and still is.. level I drug? come on.  We have long learned that McCarthy-ism laws, were ridiculous.. but we still base current law, on threadlike b/s.
really, research this, go back in timelines, see what "transpired" to make "pot" an issue today...
If everyone in the USA, sowed 5 cannabis seeds, this year, and grew 5 plants.. on any property... all these laws would be gone.
the matter of fact, of the reason the "war on drugs", utilizing pot, as a subject, has been, and always will be a reason to allow an "adjacent country" to prosper, invisibly, under the radar..   change the law, and mexico can only sell METH now... bust that line, leave the pot out of the equation... no more/shut off $$$ for south american weed... what a freaking concept.

Now, lets all go watch the lattest show of "Moonshiner's", smile, and laugh about just how "IN YOUR FACE", THIS ISSUE IS.. come on people, it's against the law, not that alcohol is, but MAKING IT IS< it's all TAX money... pay the GOV.. all good, don't pay the GOV, and just drink it, (and never sell it).. you go to prison... so...
GROW POT, GIVE IT AWAY, SMOKE IT IF YOU GOT IT... AT HOME.... DON'T DRIVE UNDER INFLUENCE..... all cured.

Now I still have issues with people, that say "i never smoked pot, never drank" spouting off on the perceived conceptions in the mind they have, about what is right for everyone.    I'm likely to respond, as an American, and a voter, to just respond "F/O", simply because the data they have is nill on the effects..

I never liked the fact that Clinton said "well, ye, I smoked pot, but I didn't inhale..." I would have bitchsmacked him if I went to school with him.. b/s/, but then, we watched his diatribe about "I never had sexual relations... etc., " when he got a hummer... tell that to poor old Hugh Jackson.. because he got hosed for the same damned thing..  but that "was different"

Back when helmet laws in Ohio, were abolished, I stopped wearing a helmet.. realized very quickly, it was STUPID to abolish.. and put my helmet back on, and geared up .. I see it all the time now, here, because we "won".. and against all that opposed it, none of which were active motorcyclists..  but, the law "won"..   smoking weed, and decisions on it's legality, not the same thing.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline gPink

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Re: Weed
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2019, 06:49:09 pm »
A drugged populace is a biddable populace.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Weed
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2019, 09:56:54 pm »
Think about that for a moment... Tobacco, was a mainstay of economy, that founded the America's.. it's a deadly toxin, there can be no dispute, nothing about any use of tobacco, can be made acceptable in any means, shape, or form, under the guise as "safe"... what a load of b/s, and associated ignorance to try to say different.

Not sure where that comes from.  You are quoting me and then extrapolating something I didn't say or imply.  I never said nor implied that tobacco use was "safe".  I did say nicotine is relatively safe, however, on the level as caffeine.  The two should not be mistaken for each other.  I would appreciate clarification on your apparent argument with me... perhaps what I said triggered a straw man argument from you?

That aside, it is pretty well established that tobacco use harm is directly related to how it is consumed, what type, and how often.  Pipe smoking (without inhaling, of course), for example, causes very little heath harm to most users.  Some studies actually show a slight INCREASE in life expectancy, ironically.  Cigar use is similar in only mildly higher danger.  In both, harm mitigation is partially due to less frequent use (and is rarely addictive in this manner), partially due to lack of harmful processing/additives, and mostly due to not being lung-inhaled (where most of the health damage occurs).  Further up the scale is chewing and other oral use (frequency of use is typically greatly increased, outweighing the benefits of the non-inhalation method of consumption).  Then comes cigarettes, which are many, many orders of magnitude more dangerous.  No use of tobacco is risk free or "safe."  But all use is not the same.  Consuming only nicotine, however, is a totally different story.

Smoking marijuana is likely to have similar danger/risk factors as smoking cigarettes (on a per use basis), as would [lung] smoking just about anything.  The mitigating factors being it is usually consumed way less frequently and is less processed (additives, etc).  Consuming only the active ingredients in other ways (pills, food, vaping) would be hugely less risky. 

Quote
Now I still have issues with people, that say "i never smoked pot, never drank" spouting off on the perceived conceptions in the mind they have, about what is right for everyone.

Again, I hope you are not referring to me, otherwise, you didn't at all read what I wrote. I specifically said "I believe people should be allowed to do anything to or put anything they wish into their bodies- as long as they can give informed consent, it isn't directly harming others, and they are adults."   Leading me, again, to ask if you are involved in another straw man argument.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Weed
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2020, 07:36:20 am »
max, I wonder if you are naive or just uninformed about the addictive qualities of nicotine? Do a bit of research on the relationship and interactions of nicotine and opioids.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Weed
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2020, 08:54:38 am »
max, I wonder if you are naive or just uninformed about the addictive qualities of nicotine? Do a bit of research on the relationship and interactions of nicotine and opioids.

I have researched this stuff far more than you would likely believe.  What exactly did I say that makes you think I am uninformed about or "naive"?

Nicotine is not very harmful, and can be very addictive, depending on the individual, and method, speed, and frequency of use.  The harmful part of tobacco use is not nicotine, it is most of the other chemicals consumed, especially when combusted, and most especially if inhaled into the lungs.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Weed
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2020, 09:14:34 am »
New Year guys....let's not let this degenerate into something I need to lock.  Happy New Year.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Weed
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2020, 11:00:47 am »
I have researched this stuff far more than you would likely believe.  What exactly did I say that makes you think I am uninformed about or "naive"?

Nicotine is not very harmful, and can be very addictive, depending on the individual, and method, speed, and frequency of use.  The harmful part of tobacco use is not nicotine, it is most of the other chemicals consumed, especially when combusted, and most especially if inhaled into the lungs.

"Nicotine is not very harmful, and can be very addictive." This statement is in itself  makes me think you are confused.

From your reply #4... " Control is important to me and I have no desire to ever be "altered." If you are addicted you are not in control. Is this not harmful by your self-imposed standards?

@Jim... just a discussion...Happy New Year to all.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Weed
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2020, 02:28:35 pm »
"Nicotine is not very harmful, and can be very addictive." This statement is in itself  makes me think you are confused.  From your reply #4... " Control is important to me and I have no desire to ever be "altered." If you are addicted you are not in control. Is this not harmful by your self-imposed standards?

Ah, then it is just semantics.  Interesting angle, though.  When I said "harmful", I was talking about harmful to health, and nothing else.  I don't consider addiction, itself (more properly thought of as "dependence") as harmful.  Asserting it is would be more of a moral position.  There is evidence to support that some athletes become "addicted" to exercise, for example.  Dependence can lead to destructive behaviors (like exercising to the point of causing damage to joints and such), but that isn't the same thing as itself causing the damage.  It is why I used the example of caffeine- it is also addictive, but in and of itself, not very harmful.  Nicotine dependence can be satisfied without the harmful effects that tobacco impose.

But linking it back to my personal desire to maintain control is a good observation.  Again, I wasn't talking about control from addiction, but control of my mental perception of reality from being altered.  Thus, I have no desire to want to get or be "high", ever, regardless of if a substance is addictive or not.  But that is my own moral standard, not one I would impose/enforce on anyone else.

Unfortunately, the human brain is very able (and some might even say "eager") to become addicted to/dependent on many different chemicals (some as outcomes from behaviors).

Quote
@Jim... just a discussion...Happy New Year to all.

Indeed!
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Offline gPink

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Re: Weed
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2020, 03:20:37 pm »

Ah, then it is just semantics.  Interesting angle, though.  When I said "harmful", I was talking about harmful to health, and nothing else.  I don't consider addiction, itself (more properly thought of as "dependence") as harmful.  Asserting it is would be more of a moral position.  There is evidence to support that some athletes become "addicted" to exercise, for example.  Dependence can lead to destructive behaviors (like exercising to the point of causing damage to joints and such), but that isn't the same thing as itself causing the damage.  It is why I used the example of caffeine- it is also addictive, but in and of itself, not very harmful.  Nicotine dependence can be satisfied without the harmful effects that tobacco impose.

But linking it back to my personal desire to maintain control is a good observation.  Again, I wasn't talking about control from addiction, but control of my mental perception of reality from being altered.  Thus, I have no desire to want to get or be "high", ever, regardless of if a substance is addictive or not.  But that is my own moral standard, not one I would impose/enforce on anyone else.

Unfortunately, the human brain is very able (and some might even say "eager") to become addicted to/dependent on many different chemicals (some as outcomes from behaviors).

Indeed!

So you don't consider mental health and physical health intrinsically bound?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Weed
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2020, 04:44:21 pm »
So you don't consider mental health and physical health intrinsically bound?

Deep!  Yes, there is a relation.  But it is difficult to objectify and quantify "mental" health, especially in such cases.  Mental health can have many other co-factors and casual relations that link back through time.  And what one person might consider healthy, another might consider unhealthy, and conditions can vary wildly.   This is why many don't consider psychology a "science" like physical health branches.  The mind is the ultimate complexity.  I don't believe negative mental health can cause negative physical health, though.  But it can lead to making poor choices that, themselves, cause physical harm.

Along the same lines- my mother believes that a positive attitude causes good things to happen.  I agreed with some qualifications.  It isn't the positive attitude that causes good things to happen, but having a positive attitude leads to better problem solving, better social interactions, more resiliency, and other things that, themselves, lead to more positive outcomes.  She means it in more of a direct/spiritual way, as if the positivity physically changes the universe around you in some way.  I won't go for that :)  I tend to put a more pragmatic view on "karma."

Here is an interesting counter-question: is being "high" (chemically mentally altered) damaging to mental health (in and of itself)?  Not an easy question to answer.  I would say "it depends" and/or "possibly" because it is too broad of a question.
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Offline Boomer

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Re: Weed
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2020, 06:57:57 am »
I have friends in their 40's, 50's and 60's who have toked nearly every day for all their adult lives and have no mental issues. They hold down jobs, pay their rent, and are functioning adults.
I know quite a few ex-friends in their 40's, 50's and 60's who do the same but expect the world to provide for them, and will use and abuse those around them to get what they want.
I classify the first as friends and the second as assholes. Whether people toke or not seems to be irrelevant. Assholes are assholes.

On the other hand, 2 of my best friends got themselves addicted to coke and both ended up taking their own lives due to the effect the drug had on their perceptions of reality. One left behind a (separated) wife and 3 children, the other a wife and 4 children.

In my experience, weed makes assholes worse, but has no long term effect on decent people.
Coke makes good, loving, caring people so f**ked up that they end up killing themselves.

Me, I stopped taking any drug other than occasional hit of alcohol over 15 years ago, and have even beaten my nicotine habit now.
My drug of choice now is adrenaline with a side of dopamine every so often. Most call it motorcycling  ;D
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Weed
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2020, 07:50:04 am »
Very well said indeed!
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Weed
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2020, 08:06:44 am »
I have friends in their 40's, 50's and 60's who have toked nearly every day for all their adult lives and have no mental issues. They hold down jobs, pay their rent, and are functioning adults.
I know quite a few ex-friends in their 40's, 50's and 60's who do the same but expect the world to provide for them, and will use and abuse those around them to get what they want.
I classify the first as friends and the second as assholes. Whether people toke or not seems to be irrelevant. Assholes are assholes.

On the other hand, 2 of my best friends got themselves addicted to coke and both ended up taking their own lives due to the effect the drug had on their perceptions of reality. One left behind a (separated) wife and 3 children, the other a wife and 4 children.

In my experience, weed makes assholes worse, but has no long term effect on decent people.
Coke makes good, loving, caring people so f**ked up that they end up killing themselves.

Me, I stopped taking any drug other than occasional hit of alcohol over 15 years ago, and have even beaten my nicotine habit now.
My drug of choice now is adrenaline with a side of dopamine every so often. Most call it motorcycling  ;D

Assholes are assholes, no matter what.

My experience matches yours. If you're an asshole and you smoke weed, you're just an asshole who is now high. If you're an asshole and you're drunk, well, you get the idea.

BUT, in my experience folks who smoke weed do not undergo a personality change as a result of being high. Unlike some people when they drink booze. I'm sure that you all know THAT PERSON who, when drinking, turns into a belligerent asshole, right? My brother is like that but only when he's been drinking rum. If he's been drinking rum, stay out of his face. Better yet, it's time to leave.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Weed
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2020, 03:16:31 pm »
My experience matches yours. If you're an asshole and you smoke weed, you're just an asshole who is now high. If you're an asshole and you're drunk, well, you get the idea.

That does seem to match my observations, also.

Quote
BUT, in my experience folks who smoke weed do not undergo a personality change as a result of being high. Unlike some people when they drink booze. I'm sure that you all know THAT PERSON who, when drinking, turns into a belligerent asshole, right?

Actually, yes.  My family (both sides) has a long history with alcoholism.  Which is one of many reasons I have never consumed alcohol.  My mother, when she drinks, gets belligerent, rude, loud, and says whatever is on her mind (which is usually hurtful).  One friend of mine is exactly like my Mom when she drinks.  Another friend of mine, he actually gets giddy and quiet, and MORE agreeable.  Someone else I knew got violent.  Everyone seems to get stupid and uncoordinated, though (I really do not enjoy being around people drinking beyond a very small amount).

I don't have much experience being around people high on marijuana, but from what I have seen, people appear to be just slow, silly, and generally stupid, pretty equally.  Never rude or belligerent.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Weed
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2020, 04:57:42 pm »
That does seem to match my observations, also.

Actually, yes.  My family (both sides) has a long history with alcoholism.  Which is one of many reasons I have never consumed alcohol.  My mother, when she drinks, gets belligerent, rude, loud, and says whatever is on her mind (which is usually hurtful).  One friend of mine is exactly like my Mom when she drinks.  Another friend of mine, he actually gets giddy and quiet, and MORE agreeable.  Someone else I knew got violent.  Everyone seems to get stupid and uncoordinated, though (I really do not enjoy being around people drinking beyond a very small amount).

I don't have much experience being around people high on marijuana, but from what I have seen, people appear to be just slow, silly, and generally stupid, pretty equally.  Never rude or belligerent.

Would this not be a personality change or maybe just exposes a person as they truly are?
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Weed
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2020, 07:08:21 am »
That does seem to match my observations, also.

Actually, yes.  My family (both sides) has a long history with alcoholism.  Which is one of many reasons I have never consumed alcohol.  My mother, when she drinks, gets belligerent, rude, loud, and says whatever is on her mind (which is usually hurtful).  One friend of mine is exactly like my Mom when she drinks.  Another friend of mine, he actually gets giddy and quiet, and MORE agreeable.  Someone else I knew got violent.  Everyone seems to get stupid and uncoordinated, though (I really do not enjoy being around people drinking beyond a very small amount).

I don't have much experience being around people high on marijuana, but from what I have seen, people appear to be just slow, silly, and generally stupid, pretty equally.  Never rude or belligerent.

There's a HUGE difference between the way some people act when they're high vs the way some act when they're drunk.

You will never hear of someone smoking a bunch of weed (only) and then beating up their wife and/or their kids. Booze is a different story altogether.   
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Weed
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2020, 07:10:14 am »
Would this not be a personality change or maybe just exposes a person as they truly are?

Yeah, that makes total sense G. Their true personality is hidden away till they get high? I think that maybe you had better try some yourself and see...
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Weed
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2020, 11:22:02 am »
Actually it could be both.  As none of us here are researchers into that kind of thing it would be difficult to speculate how alcohol or drugs affect personalities.  I've seen perfectly good intelligent people turn into complete aholes after drinking.  Can't say I've seen that with MJ, though.  Could affect different areas of the brane.
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