Author Topic: C10 EFI Project  (Read 12293 times)

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2020, 12:53:55 pm »
I've been following your progress on the EFI conversion and I do admire your tenacity and persistence. It was a project I considered way back but just did not have the time to pursue it. After watching your project, I'm glad I didn't - LOL It's a LOT to undertake. Great job!

I'd like to see a video of the bike when you get it completely finished.
Hey go for it.  It should be much easier for you.  I have already made all the stupid mistakes.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline sport rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2020, 02:01:53 pm »
it's been lots of fun following this one.  only wish I had the capability to do this....or course, that would cost me more $  :D

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2020, 07:59:04 pm »
I've been following your progress on the EFI conversion and I do admire your tenacity and persistence. It was a project I considered way back but just did not have the time to pursue it. After watching your project, I'm glad I didn't - LOL It's a LOT to undertake. Great job!

I'd like to see a video of the bike when you get it completely finished.

I don't understand why you say "completely finished" I think is is finished but it will never be completely finished.
If you really think you want to try, let me know. The guys at the speeduino forum are a terrific bunch of mates. They done this on everything from cars to skidoos, to lawnmower, to motorcycles. 
Some memories from the build. https://youtu.be/odRc84ogfQ4
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline Gitbox

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2020, 06:37:11 am »
Hey gp, I just meant when everything is all tidied up and back together like it's your daily driver. Kind of like the prototype is finished and now you're into production.  ;D


I won't be trying this as I have moved on to a factory EFI bike - a Yamaha FJR 1300. (I also wanted ABS brakes)


Again, thanks for a very interesting project!
2008 Yamaha FJR1300A
2004 Yamaha FJR1300 (sold)
2000 Kawasaki Concours ZG-1000 (sold)

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2020, 01:38:05 pm »
it's been lots of fun following this one.  only wish I had the capability to do this....or course, that would cost me more $  :D

I've seen your work and I know you could do it better than me. The cost is between 600-700 $.  Less if you are a good shopper.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2020, 11:43:03 am »
Changed out the racer handle bars. Now I can actually sit up straight . I think they are a good 8 inches higher. And much more comfortable.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2020, 05:15:32 pm »
Well crap!
Raising the handle bars puts a strain on the homemade throttle cables and now they are binding. The throttle will not return to idle by itself. I need to make another couple custom  cables. How does the song go?  If it wernt for bad luck, i'd have no luck at all.....
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2020, 05:53:08 pm »
just sharing, I feel your pain man.. but.. I'm a Bluesman.. so.....

https://youtu.be/pKxqKRyjMZY



keep on trucking man, you are almost there...  :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2020, 07:04:53 pm »
Hey , while I got your attention, how do I tell if the alternator is going bad.
When I start the bike the voltage is 12 something, then slowly creeps up to 13.9. Takes about a minute to reach 13.9. I know the battery is good cause it is new and it has no trouble cranking.


I would think that the voltage would jump to 13.9 immediately after the motor started.

 
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #149 on: May 10, 2020, 05:18:11 pm »
Takes a minute or so, to "recover" from the initial current draw at start.. then it pops up to 13+ v, normal.

Do a check, left side, near the J box, the 2 wire harness that comes from the generator, up to the harness, may have to unwrap some tape, if it was never unwrapped prior.. look for a 2 blade white nylon faston connector in that run.. coming from the generator it will have a brown, and a dark gray wire, with a cloth type insulation. unplug it, replug it, a couple times, and examine if it has any signs of melting.. it's a resistive point in the charge circuit, and many melt down when farkles are attached, unbeknownst, until it melts completely and shorts.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2020, 11:20:48 am »
Thanks,
That was it. At least part of the problem. The alternator connector has overheated.   I guess the added load of a fuel pump pushed it over the edge. When I went to open the connector it was so brittle it fell apart. I tossed the  old contacts  and replaced them with new ones.  Then heat shrink both ends. I'll check it again later and see how well it is holding up. Maybe replace with a different connector that can handle more current.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2020, 12:49:40 pm »
The bike is charging very slowly. it takes about 5 minutes from start to get back to 13.9 volts.  I found that if I increase idle from 1000 RPM to 1200 RPM it will charge faster. 

The alternator is rated for 25 amps and I am pulling 19 with everything running. I think the addition of the fuel pump is the cause of the slow charging. The fuel pump is pulling 8 amps and the headlight is pulling 5 amps.

I think if I replace the headlight with an LED lamp I can cut it's pull down to 2.5 amps.  For the fuel pump I can get a smaller one or make a PWN controller for is so that it runs at a slower speed.

There is another alternator that puts out 50% more power. Is is a zzr1200 alternator. It will bolt on and with a little wiring change it will fit the zg1000. But the cheapest I found on ebay is $150.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2020, 03:25:25 pm »
Thanks,
That was it. At least part of the problem. The alternator connector has overheated.   I guess the added load of a fuel pump pushed it over the edge. When I went to open the connector it was so brittle it fell apart. I tossed the  old contacts  and replaced them with new ones.  Then heat shrink both ends. I'll check it again later and see how well it is holding up. Maybe replace with a different connector that can handle more current.

Glad I could point you to that; It is a common thing moreso, in older bikes, and comes from an invisible resistive coating, that takes place on those blades after time.. and, progresses to a point it will melt, or be a thermally resistive connection... Had it happen to me, in the high speed lane, during a 12 hour trip... took me out, and my bike was actually running on the batt only for a half hour.. scavenged wires from my aux driving lights, to replace the connector on the roadside.. and got it going and made it home, where I repaired it correctly..  When this occurred, I devised a method for prevention, and have done it on numerous C10's, and it works... note which wire color mates on either side of the old connector... then, snip the old connection on both sides... strip those wires back about 1/2", and scrape them free of any discoloration, if it is real bad, trim them all back more, till you get to bright copper.. (the wires them selves, will actually carry the current output of the generator... the faston blades however, can only handle about 15 amps MAX.. which is the week spot...)...
Create 8 pieces of 14 awg copper wire "pigtails", 4 with "male" Blades crimped on, and 4 with insulated (covered) "female" Blade recepticles.... make them all about 4" long, for ease of construction..
Slip heatshrink over each existing wire on bike (4 wires), then solder a pair of the new pigtail wires, to each existing connection, and slip the shrink over it, and shrink it.. this make a single wire, into a pair of wires, which will double the ampacity by the use of 2 blades, where only one pre-existed.. (basically making each wire that was there, a "Y" with 2 blades..) do the same on the other side, with the receptcle pigtails.. color code them for future use..
As noted again, a single 1/4" Faston blade, will only handle 15 amps, before it overheats..

So, you really don't need a new plastic type connector, the Faston connectors, just doubled up, cost $0, and work perfectly..

Some of the older COG folks,(I know both Ted "Connie Rider", and Rick Hall, this forums owner, were there watching this all..I have photos..) and many more that attended the '07 National rally, saw this conversion firsthand, during one of my tech sessions there, when the owner of the bike I was doing a carb rebuild demo on, happened to mention just that same day/morning he smelled "something like burning clutch/plastic" during a conversation..I looked over at the bike, and realized he had some aux lights, and lots of electrical farkles.. (which I knew in my bikes failure, was the straw that caused the meltdown)  I stopped the carb demo, walked over to the bike, exposed the connector, and showed him...it was worse than the one in your photo..he was right at the point where within the next couple rides.. it would have been a total meltdown, and short circuit.. we jumped the shark on that, and I directed 3 people in this process, while I was finishing my carb lecture.
Luckily for all, at that particular venue, and time, I had my "rolling garage" in my truck,(which my loving wife drove to the rally with) specifically designed for this 3 day tech session I volunteered for.. and had wire, connectors, soldering equipment.. TOOLS, compressor and AIR tools.. solvents, and "juices", of all types, and quite realistically could have disassembled, and rebuilt a C10, onsite, with no need to run for supplies..
One other tidbit you won't find anywhere; when you initially "start the bike", the headlights come on.. when the bike is running, (and this takes a bit of practice, but can be quickly learned by a few attempts)  you can then, pull "up" slightly on the ignition key, and "quickly" cycle it left and right from run to off to on, you have to do it fast... and this will release the lighting relay, and allow much more charging amps while sitting idle..   I ran NAPA 80/100 headlight bulbs... and as you see, the bike at "idle" does not produce amps, it takes about 2500 rpm, to get to the real charging amps.. the "headlight trick" will effectively free up almost 7-8 amps, during idle...

.  For the fuel pump I can get a smaller one or make a PWN controller for is so that it runs at a slower speed.

There is another alternator that puts out 50% more power. Is is a zzr1200 alternator. It will bolt on and with a little wiring change it will fit the zg1000. But the cheapest I found on ebay is $150.

I'm not an electrical wizard/guru, but knowing motors, and such, I'm not sure you are correct, but then I may be wrong again, and if so, any thing I can learn is good.. but the pump itself need s a fixed amperage supply, to start, and run.. voltage changes will control the speed, but amps have to be there, to begin, and continue the process.. DC motors rely on amps to start, and run; As I say, I'm not that well versed, but know what I know, as an engineer.

the ZZR alternator / generator, upgrade, does require a bit of re modding of the system, but, has been done many times, might be good for your needs, but not the "allbeit" of the cure, some wire size changes may be needed, and some semblance of protection to other electrics also.  I picked up a couple off e-bay, and stored them, for low prices when we were discussing this all about 15-17 years ago.  they are still boxed up, never saw the need on either of my C10's for them then, but may break them out someday.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:14:45 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2020, 04:07:12 pm »
I think I have the answer for the connector. These are rated for 60 amps and they are not that big.  And I just happen to have a bag of them.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ETROGP4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But I still have the problem that the alternator can just stay ahead of the power draw of everything,  If I get stuck in slow traffic and the radiator fan comes on the it will probably drain the battery in a while.

I need to save up and purchase that ZZR1200 alternator. It is rated at 45 amps.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 10:09:19 am by gpineau »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2020, 04:33:59 pm »
Ok, Village (electrical) idiot here.
I would have thought the Alt plenty big to add a fuel pump and injectors to your system.
    (Particularly as you are not using all the lights that a stock Connie uses).

Couple of thought's.
5 amps continuously at the fuel pump sounds excessive.
  Is it sized correctly? (Too much fuel flow?)
  Is pressure higher than it needs to be? (Pump dead heading at max pressure?)
   Seems like lower fuel pressures and longer cycle times at the injectors would make the system more tunable and give you a better mixture throughout the cycle.

Is the control system for the Fi system drawing  a lot of power?

Lights; Add; LED's throughout.
                   Wiring system with relays and on/off switch.

Ride safe, Ted
     


Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2020, 05:35:38 pm »
Ok, Village (electrical) idiot here.
I would have thought the Alt plenty big to add a fuel pump and injectors to your system.
    (Particularly as you are not using all the lights that a stock Connie uses).

Couple of thought's.
5 amps continuously at the fuel pump sounds excessive.
  Is it sized correctly? (Too much fuel flow?)
  Is pressure higher than it needs to be? (Pump dead heading at max pressure?)
   Seems like lower fuel pressures and longer cycle times at the injectors would make the system more tunable and give you a better mixture throughout the cycle.

Is the control system for the Fi system drawing  a lot of power?

Lights; Add; LED's throughout.
                   Wiring system with relays and on/off switch.

Ride safe, Ted
   

the fuel pump adds as much as a stock headlight does, to the load..  can'r be shortcutted, unless a more efficient pump, (lower inrush amp) is used, but still need supply of like 40 psi to the rail.. I'm not spending the time for free, to research them, but the correlation between peak pipe pressure/fuel pump amp draw/ and delivery, is kind of critical, as dropping pump pressure, via PWM voltage chopping, still places a full amp draw when the pump pulses.. lowering voltage, just slows the motor, and reduces pressure.. it's a coin toss, to regulate pressure, and pulse.. but "inrush" current, when a DC motor spins up, is greater than a constant state DC motor ampacity.  i feel "chopping" actually exacerbates this, making the motor stop, and start, consuming more amps, than running in a constant state... maybe a fuel pressure regulator, set at a point reduced from what is being produced now, "may assist", but during demand periods, may fall short on delivery (based on the flow needs of the injectors).. tough call.  In reality, maybe a higher rated mechanical limiter (as the pump limiter is a spring and poppet based assembly, actually part of the pump output flow path) might maintain pressure better, reducing the load on the pump, to keep pressure up to spec.. I dunno.    LED's, while pretty much efficient, really don't offer much to the C10.. really... they drop the load when running by about 15 %,20% at most... which really is not a lot.. Biggest benefit would be Increasing wire sizes thruout the bike, adding the Free Power Thang from SISF, having a higher amp capacity batt, like an Odyssey, and making sure all connections are brightly cleaned regularly, and proper.. oh, and not running 3 sets of driving lights, and other drains, unless off an aux fusebox, for Farkles like heated clothing, and aux lights.. Bigger wires do make a difference... just saying..

I never had issue with this batt, I did however put foam spacers in the box, so it fit tightly..
https://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc545.htm



BTW..... Ted... I thought you did the ZZR generator thang, didn't you?  what was the outcome?

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #156 on: May 12, 2020, 09:01:01 am »
No, I've never done anything with the charging system on any of my C-10's. I've been very fortunate.

I was referring to his fuel line system. {I used to build remote fueling systems for our test cars at Shell}
#1) Some builders put a regulator before the fuel rail (the unused fuel returns to the tank before the regulator or not at all). Using this type, they maintain the fuel rail at a select pressure. (say 40 psi) The problem with this system is the pressure prior to the regulator is higher than the fuel rail pressure all the time (say 80 psi). {draws more amps/fuel got hotter}
#2) Most cars used a system where the regulator is in/after the fuel rail (unused fuel returns to the tank after the regulator) Doing it this way, the entire system never exceeds 40 psi and the pump would doesn't work as hard. {draw's less amps and the fuel remains cooler.}
#3) Later cars went to a return-less system where the pressure is regulated at the fuel pump. {Lowest amp draw of all and coolest fuel}

I'm not familiar with the fuel system on this bike, but I think his first system (on his Honda) was like type #1.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2020, 12:57:31 pm »
Attaching a drawing on how my fuel system is plumbed.
My pump is rated to deliver a Flow rate - 135ltr/hr @ 3bar (35 gal/hr @ 45 psi), Max pressure - 8.5bar (125 psi). When connected to 12 volts that is what it will do. what the injectors don't use at 43.psi needs to be rerouted back to the tank.

Regardless where the regulator is placed it will keep the fuel line pressurized at 43 psi and send the rest back to the tank.

In my opinion it does not matter where the regulator is placed. The pump works just as hard to produce its rated flow rate regardless if the excess is relieved before or after the fuel rail.  ( I have seen Kawasaki fuel rails configured both ways)

About the power.
MOB, I tried that trick of quickly switching the key off and back on. The light did go off and the battery charged back up to 13.9 in about 5 seconds.  That tells me that the power to run everything is on the very edge of not being enough, and one more accessory will push it over the edge. I think the coolant fan will drain the battery in a short while.

The headlight  is off a Honda Magna that I am cannibalizing for parts. It pulls 5 amps. The new lamp is rated for 2.5 amps.  LED head lamp is on a UPS truck and should arrive on Wednesday.

I am contemplating getting a smaller fuel pump or doing some electrical changes to lower the power it requires. I am going to do some more thinking on it before I do anything at all.  In the end I may just swap out the alternator for a bigger one and stop worrying about scrimping on power.

In the beginning I never intended to make this bike a daily rider. It was intended to become a trike for my wife but since that didn't pan out I decided to do an EFI project instead and when finished sell it. But....

 I have raised the handle bars , lowered the frame and made a custom seat. I am beginning to like it. Now I can sit on it and get both feet on the ground. I'm not afraid of it any more. And I get a real thrill going through the gears at full throttle. I may just keep it.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2020, 09:36:15 am »
Thanks GP. That answers my question.
The regulator you have is a type 2. It controls pressure before the regulator.
  {Your regulator is effectively after the fuel rail {because the line to the fuel rail, is located before the regulator}.

NOTE: Many automobiles have their regulator and return fuel line at the fuel rail itself.
           This location purges air, and prevents vapor lock due to heat build up in the rail.
           I doubt you'll have vapor lock problems on a motorcycle.

A type 1 regulator/system is like the regulator that is used on an air compressor.
It controls pressure after the regulator.
ie; On an air compressor, the tank holds 120 psi, but the air pressure to the hose can be reduced by adjusting the regulator.

At Shell, many of the remote fuel systems we used were type 1.
Due to heat build up and slow response during acceleration's, we changed to type 2 regulators.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #159 on: June 02, 2020, 02:50:02 pm »
This bike is really fun to ride  (for a little while) ...Maybe it is my small stature but I've lowered  the frame, made a custom seat, and raised the handlebars. After riding around for the past week I say this is the most uncomfortable ride of any bike I have owned.  The  problem is I can't sit up completely. If I straighten my back my arms are stretched as far as possible and that feels dangerous. If I lean forward to get a good grip on the handles after a few miles my hands start to ache because of the weight pushing on the tendon between my thumb and index finger. 

It's sad that I have put all this effort into this bike and find that I can't ride it for any length of time.  Iv'e come to the conclusion that the C10 is just too big a bike for me.

I may execute my original plan and make it into a trike. But while I am waiting for an affordable trike kit to pop up on craigslist I will probably try to sell it.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures