Author Topic: C10 EFI Project  (Read 12261 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2020, 06:25:39 pm »
No I saw it, just didn't have the time to react... I'll be quite honest if this pattern continues I will take corrective action...

Understood Tony.
And, I will admit to removing the disparaging remarks, (it is clearly evident I did so, by the edit time and date stamp on my post, and by the quoted portion he placed.. no mystery. No deception implicated.. I simply removed it.), because I felt the need to, based on the lack of info given prior. I based my comment on what I saw. The hidden aspects of his assembly, were not revealed, until I commented. SO, I removed the insulting sounding remarks. I did see the throttle position sensor, but in his vid, it was not showing any input on his computer. I therefore committed to asking about throttle body. The injectors, and the location of same, were never revealed ever prior, and un seen in any prior revelations.

I apologize for jumping at conclusions, but only for that, and my personal comments.
other than that, I really have no desire to further brow beat the man. I'm sorry.

there will be no further interaction from me in response to anything the O/P posts on this subject.. I wish him best of luck.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Rick Hall

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2020, 09:01:46 pm »
No I saw it, just didn't have the time to react... I'll be quite honest if this pattern continues we will take corrective action...

Corrected it for you.

Rick
Rick Hall     1994 ZG 1000 "Sam"      xCOG #1914 (CO)
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2020, 04:02:50 am »
To my fellow forum members,
I joined this forum shortly after purchasing my first C10. I am now on my third.  I joined because I was enthusiastic about my new toy and had a list of questions. Along with my question I wished to share my experiences. Both my successes and failures, new things I learned and interesting discoveries. I have a keen interest in experimenting with my motorcycles. Doing things that challenge me and keep life interesting.  I have tried to openly share those experiences here with everyone. But when I do, I am often criticized, disparaged, demeaned, and called dishonest. It Is very disheartening to want to share, be accepted but then be rejected.

I had planned to publish of all the details of my latest experiment but only after I had worked out all the kinks and could call it successful.  Maybe I was premature in showing my progress before it was completely ready, but the response I received was shocking and demotivating. So, I find no joy in sharing here anymore.   Anyone interested in the experience and how I got this far can get some of the information from this document.
http://gpineau.com/Public_files/
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 01:28:10 pm by gpineau »
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Offline Stasch

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2020, 06:37:06 am »
As an FYI, the link won't open as posted, as the spaces in the file name got converted to 'A20' in the link.

I was able to get to it by shortening your link to: http://gpineau.com/Public_files/ and opening the file from the 'read only' ftp equivalent link found there.

I saw all the posts and have just read your DOCX file.  I really wish you could find a way to continue to post your progress and not let what happened keep you away.
Stan Visser - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - > C10 STUFF FOR SALE - Parts List

He IS a racer, hence the forward lean!!  by: Mettler1

Offline T Cro ®

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2020, 06:44:30 am »
I really wish you could find a way to continue to post your progress and not let what happened keep you away.

I'll 2nd that wish, even though I don't ride anymore I do enjoy reading the "I'm gonna make it work" attitude...
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010

Offline sport rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2020, 01:08:33 pm »
I'm still following....

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2020, 04:10:41 pm »
I know I said I didn't want to post here anymore but I cant contain it.

So I was setting in the garage, motor running, pointed toward the street and scared Shi-t-less.  Pondering should I chance it or not? This is a big bike and I don't want to push it home.  I gave it a little throttle and released the clutch and I am down the driveway and heading down the block toward the corner. Christ ! I have never even tested the brakes on this thing, hoping it will stop.  From the stop sign I turn left and gave it more gas and away it went with me holding on. This is the most thrilled I have been since I can't remember.  It FRIGGING_SCREAMS ! I was at the end of the block before I could get to second gear. I spent the next ten minutes tooling around the neighborhood milking the throttle, goosing it then engine braking.  At times at WOT it would begin to sputter but the ECU would soon make the correction. I never got past 3rd gear.  Then it begins to snow, sleet... So I pulled into the garage and killed it. Took a deep breath and tried to wipe the smile off my face but I am still grinning.

 It has be a long road to get to this point and I and so thankful for the support and advice I have been getting in both public and in private conversations. Far from done but I am so encouraged right now.
Compared to my other C10, I can tell that this one will smoke it, hands down.  I need to find my go-pro and mount it on a helmet. I cant wait till tomorrow. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 05:48:15 pm by gpineau »
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Offline tweeter55

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2020, 04:20:45 pm »
That is AWESOME results!!!
Please, please, please keep posting here.
I'm with T Cro. Enjoying the read & results.
Keep up the good work!
Do not try to live forever on this earth. You will not succeed.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2020, 07:16:34 am »
That's great news!!
   I've been following since the beginning.
   I'll start with; I admit that most of the electrical/programming is way over my head.
   But' I've enjoyed watching as you worked your way around all...
    Your solutions to problems are different, and out of the box.
          Keep up the good work.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Please be careful out there.
      There are more things (than braking problems) to be concerned with on the road.

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2020, 07:40:31 pm »
Ted,
I bet you could to this. I have already made all the silly mistakes and found all the ways not to do it. Just do what I did and it will work.

 I was a computer hardware designer and a embedded  firmware engineer in a previous life. So the electrical and hardware assembly was not that hard for me.

 It was working out the mechanical and physical aspects that took the most time. It is the tuning that frightens me the most. Manly because I have no experience in that aspect of EFI.
 I purchased the pro version of Tuner studio which is a terrific help in getting things right under all the other conditions. All you need is to set up the AFR tables, preliminary VE table and the spark advance table. The base tune is provided with the ECU firmware so you don't have to start from scratch. The base tune is good enough to get it started.

Getting it started, warmed up and idle is half the battle. After that the tuner studio has a function that will check the settings against what you want the final AFR to be and make adjustment to the VE table to bring the AFR inline with whats in the table. There is a free version that takes a lot of measurements and makes recommendations then you make the changes manually. But in my opinion the paid auto-tune version is worth the price.

Yesterday I had tuned around idle and low RPM with no load.  The rest of the VE table was just based off default "base tune". When I left the garage it performed very well under the conditions I had tuned for but as I put it under different loading conditions I could feel it hesitate briefly then the auto tune would start to work out and correct the setting and shortly it was pulling strong.  The longer you drive it around with Auto tune the better it gets and eventually it is tuned for all speed and load conditions.   
here s a great video that will give you an idea of how helpful tuner studio is.

As for the firmware in the ECU...I gave up on that in the middle of my first project. The guys at Speeduino were so far ahead it didn't make sense to roll my own. All you need is a PC and the development tools and a USB port. They make it simple to download the firmware to the ECU.  And the guys at the Speeduino forum are so very friendly and helpful. When you get stumped they can walk you through getting un-stumped.

And since I have already done it I am sure you can do it too. I bet there are hundreds of old Connies sitting in garages and sheds that have not been started in years. Good candidates for a interesting and fun project.
 
Here is the document that names the different steps I took that I think anyone can follow. Anyone with basic mechanical/electrical skills will not have too much difficulty in replicating what I have done.

http://gpineau.com/Public_files/

https://youtu.be/x4RBi8Xf92Y

« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 08:14:24 pm by gpineau »
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline sport rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2020, 08:13:18 am »
Very nice!  I can relate to the enthusiasm.   :thumbs:

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2020, 09:18:30 am »
It's been cold the past few days so I took the time to look up the parts I had purchased to get an idea of all I have spent.
It is not exactly cheap but my expenditures were spread out over the past year so it really did not feel that expensive a little each month.
I actually had a lot more invested in the development tools and experiments that did not yield fruit. But to replicate it I think I can do it cheaper a second time.
If I had been a more frugal ebay shopper I could have done better.   

Most of the expense was in the ECU and the wide band controller, with the rest being $5 here, $10 there, it all adds up.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2020, 08:40:45 am »
Here are most of the steps I went through starting in August.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zon1TuzB_mU4w5h5qqh5WuXQ

I didn't video the mods I made to the gas tank.  But it is necessary to drill out the vent pipe that exits just under the gas cap. The gas cap will need to be removed to get access the the vent. I drill strait down and at an angle toward the front of the tank. This will allow gas returned from the fuel pressure regulator to circulate through the tank.  Also I drilled a 2mm hole on the opposite side to allow pressure build-up to escape the tank.  Sorry no video or photos.

And this is worth watching. But you must turn on the sound.  https://www.facebook.com/202314740312386/videos/572135050032021/
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Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2020, 04:40:54 pm »
Third time out with tuner studio in auto tune. Each time it gets better.  When ever if hits a bad spot on the throttle I just hold it there for a few seconds and soon it is pulling strong again. Tuner studio is worth every penny.   Trying to ride at all different speeds in all gears and under differing loads. Cant do all that in my neighborhood.  Not much left to do since it is running well. Still a little stubborn when starting but it will start after a few seconds of cranking.

Each time I go for a ride it gets better than the last time. Its about time I headed out on the highway. But first I need to tighten down the rear view mirrors. And  calibrate the speedometer (it seems to be off by about a third). some weird formula, =1000/ (wheel circumference in meters/2) or something like that. Also need to adjust the camera so it is looking at something besides the front tire.
 https://youtu.be/NfqR8AeMjg4
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2020, 09:48:57 am »
Seems that your making great progress.

I know your not done, but have questions.

1) If you sharply twist the throttle how sharp is the response?
      MY stock C-10 is not as sharp as my C-14. Think this is partially due to be carbureted.
      Wondering if EFI will make the initial response sharper.
2) Does your controls monitor and adjust for changes in altitude or barometric pressure?
      Mixture will have to change as air density changes.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2020, 07:06:55 pm »
There is a programmable throttle enrichment value. It is a curve that adds more fuel based on the rate of change of the throttle position. This is measured in %/second, with higher values representing faster twists of the throttle and values in the range 50%/s to 1000%/s are normal.
Eg:
100%/s = pressing the throttle from 0% to 100% in 1 second
1000%/s = pressing the throttle from 0% to 100% in 0.1s

TPSdot forms the X axis of the acceleration curve, with the Y axis value representing the % increase in fuel.
The tuning software allows you to adjust the different points on the curve to suit your engine.  In the tool shown in the photo the software allows you to pick points on the curve and move them higher or lower depending on how you want acceleration enrichment to behave.

I am using the default on mine and it seem to e very responsive. I have not played with the curve yet, so perhaps I can make it even more responsive.

At the moment the software only takes a barometer reading at key on. It then uses the map pressure to determine the engine load.  Since it only has one map sensor it cannot make barometer measurements while the engine is running. It only takes the measurement once per key cycle. This is adequate if you plan to drive across states like Kansas or Nebraska. But if your are going to cross the Rockies you probably need to stop every once and a while and cycle the power.  There are plans for a second barometer sensor but it has not been implemented yet.

PS. took my bike out on a tuning ride again today and it ran great for a while the it got temperamental.  slow to get up to speed and bogged down on WOT. I kept driving around hoping that auto-tune would work it out but it just kept getting worse.  I limped home and after I parked it noticed the AFR was showing it running very lean.  Then I noticed the fuel pressure showed about half of what it normally reads. Then I realized it was running on an empty tank! All the engine was getting was air mixed with what ever fuel was splashing around in the tank.  So now that it has a full tank and plenty of pressure it is running too rich. I need to re-tune to un-do what auto-tune did to correct for running out of gas.  So today was a washout. But tomorrow is going to be a warm 57 degrees.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2020, 08:56:21 am »
Ok, thanks for the information.
Seems your getting there.....

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2020, 03:02:26 pm »
Connie_rider,

Took it out again today. Longest ride so far. You asked is the throttle responsive when twisted hard.  Rolling at about 20 MPH I got the front wheel off the ground by goosing the throttle. I am very happy with the way this has turned out. I managed to un-do the bad tuning I did yesterday while running on an empty tank.  Acceleration it good in all gears. First time ever got int 5th and 6th gears. I still have trouble with cold starts and 1st gear at low speeds but everything else looks good to me.  looks like my cheap aftermarket speeduino died just as I arrived home. I need to go check on that.

Made a 20 minute video. it is uploading now. youtube says it will be an hour before it is processed. https://youtu.be/M8fvjvZv_z4
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2020, 04:27:27 pm »
Yahoo. More progress..
I like your music, but couldn't hear the motor. Have you done any hard accells thru a few gears?

Ride safe, Ted

Offline gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2020, 05:43:01 pm »
Yahoo. More progress..
I like your music, but couldn't hear the motor. Have you done any hard accells thru a few gears?

Ride safe, Ted
Hard excel in 1,2,3rd. By then I am over the speed limit and shut it down. Ill try that out on the back rode and let you know.   As for the music, you cant hear the motor real well anyway because of the wind noise on the camera. I am thinking of putting another recorder inside my helmet and overdub the audio when i am done.
2 Connies,  1 Yamaha Vstar 950 Touring.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures