Author Topic: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only  (Read 1284 times)

Offline Spongelander

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Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« on: August 06, 2020, 08:33:23 am »
I replaced the fluid in the clutch master cylinder 1000 miles or so ago. I didn't use a bleeder and pull it all the way through the slave cylinder; instead I took the easy way out and used a turkey baster to replace the fluid.
All was fine, but now the lever is maybe 30% soft on 4-to-5 upshift only  - not in any other gear, not starting off, and not downshifting. Has anyone else seen this? I do have a mityvac and can properly flush and bleed if needed (and will next time).
Thank you! Mac
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline lather

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2020, 09:30:50 am »
Can't think of any way a clutch hyrdraulics issue could have effect in only 5th to 6th. How many miles? I am thinking worn shift mechanism in transmission. But I'm not a mechanic.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2020, 10:30:07 am »
But have you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently?
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Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2020, 11:02:23 am »
18K miles. I've been scouring the clutch bleeding issue threads and thinking I might have turkey-basted too much old fluid out - possibly exposing the bottom (to air!). I'm getting an inexpensive Motion Pro bleeder so I can do this without three hands, and will report back after a good bleeding session or two.  Thank you.
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Offline lather

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2020, 11:32:51 am »
But have you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently?
As a matter of fact...
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline lather

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2020, 11:44:48 am »
18K miles. I've been scouring the clutch bleeding issue threads and thinking I might have turkey-basted too much old fluid out - possibly exposing the bottom (to air!). I'm getting an inexpensive Motion Pro bleeder so I can do this without three hands, and will report back after a good bleeding session or two.  Thank you.
I think 18k miles rules out or at least makes unlikely the tranny wear idea. Good move with the motion pro, I  find it works much better than Mity Vac. But still  waiting for a response from one of the mechanical gurus about 4th to 5th only. That has to be a clue.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2020, 09:22:13 pm »
Yes, the 4-5 upshift thing is really strange. I went on a 300-mile ride on forest roads yesterday, and the issue popped up. I started paying attention to each upshift and downshift, found the 4->5 anomaly, then tried holding the bike in 4th or 5th and varying the throttle, with my hand on the clutch. I thought either 4th or 5th might be direct drive and that might have something to do with it. My buddy thinks I stirred up sediment and blocked one of the tiny ports, or that maybe I pulled too much out with the turkey baster and uncovered the clutch hose. Very strange.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2020, 07:52:18 am »
The clutch is not in any way interactive with the transmission, other than the obvious connection in that it provides torque to the transmission input shaft. So there should not be any effect on the clutch by the gear selection of the transmission, at least as far as I can see. The clutch should behave the same way regardless of what gear(s) you are shifting into or out of.

There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear. If you are having odd behavior in fourth gear, I would suggest it is the transmission itself and not the clutch; you may have a damaged fourth gear that has not yet failed completely. ??

The bad news is that the engine and transmission have to be removed from the frame, followed by a pretty intense tear-down of the transmission to even get to that gear. And there is no way I can think of to diagnose such a problem without that tear- down unfortunately.

If it is a clutch issue, then perhaps the transmission is slightly more resistant to shifting from fourth into fifth and the clutch is not fully disengaging but this shift is the only time it is noticeable? The hydraulics on C-14's are difficult to bleed fully and the only I have been successful is with a powered brake bleeding device. It seems like a very small amount of air is left in the system no matter how many times it is manually bled but power bleeding eventually removes all the air.

Certainly trying to bleed the clutch as thoroughly as possible is no doubt the best way to proceed- beats the hell out of dropping the transmission and taking a look inside!

Brian

I replaced the fluid in the clutch master cylinder 1000 miles or so ago. I didn't use a bleeder and pull it all the way through the slave cylinder; instead I took the easy way out and used a turkey baster to replace the fluid.
All was fine, but now the lever is maybe 30% soft on 4-to-5 upshift only  - not in any other gear, not starting off, and not downshifting. Has anyone else seen this? I do have a mityvac and can properly flush and bleed if needed (and will next time).
Thank you! Mac
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Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2020, 09:36:34 am »
B.D.F Thanks, the engagement point shifts 1/2" to 1" inward just on that one shift. I'll thoroughly bleed it and report back.
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2020, 11:22:52 am »

There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear. If you are having odd behavior in fourth gear, I would suggest it is the transmission itself and not the clutch; you may have a damaged fourth gear that has not yet failed completely. ??

Having had exactly that (only one tooth sheared off 4th gear) I can say that It gave me no indication until I rode 100 feet or so without my helmet on. Normally (I would say always, but obviously not in this case) wearing a helmet and good sealing ear buds I couldn't hear what I heard just riding across the parking lot to the bike wash. I have no idea how or when that tooth came off, but it was obvious from the noise that something was wrong just riding in first and second gear around the parking lot with no helmet. The noise of that one broken tooth reflected off the parked cars in the lot. I had no clutch feel changes at all, and the next morning with helmet on and ear buds in I couldn't hear it as I slowly drove at 25 mph to the closest dealer. On the way to the dealer I never went higher than 4th gear but I know I used all six the day before and only discovered the noise after a full day of riding and deciding to wash the bike. So give it a good listen as well, perhaps on the center stand try it a bit in first and second to eliminate that possibility. It should be audible if you have the same problem.

As others have said, I'm not sure how the two could be related but it's interesting, please keep us in the information loop as you chase this down.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2020, 06:52:34 pm »
BDF said: There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear.

I have never read of such failures - fartymarty's, yes a single tooth on one gear or another.  Please provide evidence to support your statement.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2020, 07:20:50 am »
I have to assume you have my post under a bright light, the post is sweating profusely and you are simply waiting until I cave in and admit everything to you.... ? Perhaps you could try beating your monitor with a rubber hose or a large telephone book until I sign a confession? Sorry chief, ain't gonna' happen.  ;D

My local dealer had a C-14 spread across three separate benches repairing the transmission after fourth gear 'disappeared' or in better terms, would not engage at all. This dealer is quite competent and I fully believe that what they described is exactly what had happened; of course at that time I had no idea you would insist on proof or I would have taken fingerprints, mugshots and detailed testimony of all those involved.  I have no idea how many teeth broke off but personally feel it quite irreverent- a failed gear is a failed gear IMO and the specific degree of failure is a moot point.

Of course all of this is also irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is about the OP saying his clutch acts differently in only one gear, and only on the up-shift of that gear. To which I responded that I could not imagine how that could be, suggested a possible explanation and suggested he again bleed the clutch again as aggressively and thoroughly as possible. I still believe that is a reasonable and logical course of action.

Sometimes I forget how fun the InterWebs can be but I betcha' Al Gore did not see this kinda' stuff coming when he invented it. :rotflmao:

Brian

BDF said: There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear.

I have never read of such failures - fartymarty's, yes a single tooth on one gear or another.  Please provide evidence to support your statement.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2020, 07:57:00 am »
Such failures are, no doubt, rare to the extreme.  But I have read about them before on these forums.  I don't think it is anything to be alarmed about.  No machine is perfect.  And, like BDF, I don't think it relates to this thread at all.

My recommendation, which is likely what most people would recommend, would be a complete re-do of the clutch fluid flush/replacement, with special attention paid to ensuring there is no possibility of air.  Might also verify the engine oil is of the correct type and not old.  Then see if there is anything left to troubleshoot after that.

Unlike failed gears, having air/contaminates in the clutch/brake lines is, in fact, a very common issue.  Thankfully, one I have not experienced yet, though.  Not quite as common as battery/ground connection issues, which HAS bitten me.
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Offline PH14

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2020, 11:16:02 am »
I have to assume you have my post under a bright light, the post is sweating profusely and you are simply waiting until I cave in and admit everything to you.... ? Perhaps you could try beating your monitor with a rubber hose or a large telephone book until I sign a confession? Sorry chief, ain't gonna' happen.  ;D

Sometimes I forget how fun the InterWebs can be but I betcha' Al Gore did not see this kinda' stuff coming when he invented it. :rotflmao:

Brian

 :chugbeer: :rotflmao:

Offline Freddy

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2020, 04:31:10 pm »
Yes, off topic indeed but thanks for replying BDF.  I have first-hand experience in a broken gear tooth.  I can't see it happening as your local dealer described it to you - simply exaggeration as in spread across three separate benches: 2 for plastic maybe and one for the engine.

Ride and keep safe over there.   :chugbeer:

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:03:37 pm by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is .............what?