Author Topic: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only  (Read 1283 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 04:52:29 pm »
having followed mechanical (hard part) failure since day one,, and seeing the narrow cross section of them, I'll say most were '13 and up to '15,(after that point non reported);  when the ratio on gear one changed.... that said, the gears, and clutch, are non -associated.. so far I have sen 6 reports of gear failure ( mechanical / broken), and none were clutch associated.. well, a couple were, but they were slamming gears down,  without clutching.  after that... all the proponents of clutch-less shift, and can pretty much eat horse hockey... I nver bused my clutches.. and when the H.P, overcame the level of that clutch, it was all my fault. C14, C10, both had bulletproof clutches...


 bleed the sucker... and it will b fine

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2020, 06:37:59 pm »
I'm going with the man with flower pots..
"LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! 2008 C14 Moved on to a new home, 2016 RM traded in.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2020, 07:57:44 am »
OK, ya' got me- it was really 4 tables.... no, wait, it was 5 tables! Yep, that is it, five tables. And each one had more than one level too, so it was really ten tables!

Honestly, I do feel better having admitted the truth so thanks for pushing me to confess.

As to your comment about keeping safe, thank you for the kind thoughts (seriously, not sarcastically). In reality, things here (where I live) are downright boring regardless of what you may see on the news; there ARE pockets of unrest in the US of A but like Australia, the US is a big country and the majority of the population is not within gunshot distance of any social.... er, 'upsets'.

But back to the topic at hand: I believe the OP has a bit of air in the clutch hydraulics. As for what the connection is to any particular gear, I cannot imagine what might cause that beyond what I already stated about the gear itself being damaged and reflecting on more difficult shifting in the one case. Regarding the OP's later post that the clutch engagement point changes when the bike is in that particular gear I have absolutely no idea what might cause that condition?

Brian (OK, that is not my real name. In fact, it is not a real name at all.)

Yes, off topic indeed but thanks for replying BDF.  I have first-hand experience in a broken gear tooth.  I can't see it happening as your local dealer described it to you - simply exaggeration as in spread across three separate benches: 2 for plastic maybe and one for the engine.

Ride and keep safe over there.   :chugbeer:

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2020, 11:22:20 am »
He's a figment of his imagination...
"LOCTITE┬«"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! 2008 C14 Moved on to a new home, 2016 RM traded in.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2020, 06:27:15 pm »
 :yikes:   :thumbs:   :chugbeer:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 07:48:32 am »
OP here. So... I bled the clutch slowly and carefully, doing the clutch master cylinder first, then the slave cylinder. Got a good firm lever. But after a few minutes, and after the bike heated up, things started changing. The 4-5 upshift loss of clutch resumed. And when I accelerate, then decelerate, with the clutch lever pulled in a bit, I can feel the engagement point shifting. All very strange. Then...

A slow 2-3 upshift had a "crunchy" sound. The shift was firm, but it appears something is loose inside. I limped home, sometimes hearing this crunch, sometimes not - but it dawned on me what this likely is: some of the legs on the four leaf springs /star springs have probably broken. So... I am off to elsewhere in the Forum, to look up star spring troubles and replacement. I've read it's not hard, there are 2 each of two similar springs, that I need a gasket and an end nut as well. Maybe what I was feeling the whole time was the clutch "bump" described by those who have broken star springs.

Thanks for your help! I'll report back here once I check this out.
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2020, 01:39:27 pm »
I had to go look at your first post here, to see for sure what year you have.. and also to be sure we are talking C14... and how many miles..
so it's a 2014, new old stock, with like (original post was 14k) now 18k miles on it..

I'm thinking it ain't the star springs.. it would have to have been really abused for one to break with that low a mileage, and time.. and again, star springs will exhibit the same symptom in ALL gears, not just one typical shift up/down sequence.. like you are reporting.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2020, 02:56:27 pm »

Thanks for your help! I'll report back here once I check this out.


Please do so, Thanks.

Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2020, 09:48:17 pm »
Well, the problem WAS the soft clutch... but after bleeding and a test ride, shifting became crunchy at random. I rode the mile home, and most shifts seemed to be normal. Then I put the bike on its centerstand, fired it up, and let the clutch out. It seems there is a bit of rattling. I shifted into first and second at idle speed, and there appears to be random noise. Possibly unrelated, I sat on the bike, gearshift in Neutral, and was unable to shift up into second (that may be Kawi's patented feature though).

It's possible that I won't be able to touch it for  a week, but I will be back. The reason I  suspected the star spring is that my Sportster had small leaf springs as a clutch assist, riveted on to one of the steels. Those rivets wore down, sending the little springs bouncing around the clutch basket. I hope that's all it is... more to come. Thanks Marty!
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2020, 09:22:59 am »
Glad you are tracking down the problem and especially glad it is a clutch problem. Transmission problems can be pretty nasty. The entire clutch is accessible from under side covers so repairing that will be a lot easier than anything in the transmission.

Best of luck moving forward!

Brian

Well, the problem WAS the soft clutch... but after bleeding and a test ride, shifting became crunchy at random. I rode the mile home, and most shifts seemed to be normal. Then I put the bike on its centerstand, fired it up, and let the clutch out. It seems there is a bit of rattling. I shifted into first and second at idle speed, and there appears to be random noise. Possibly unrelated, I sat on the bike, gearshift in Neutral, and was unable to shift up into second (that may be Kawi's patented feature though).

It's possible that I won't be able to touch it for  a week, but I will be back. The reason I  suspected the star spring is that my Sportster had small leaf springs as a clutch assist, riveted on to one of the steels. Those rivets wore down, sending the little springs bouncing around the clutch basket. I hope that's all it is... more to come. Thanks Marty!
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2020, 08:26:29 pm »
Couldn't resist going into the clutch today to see if the star springs were broken. It's not hard to pull the cover off, then the springs. One steel and one friction plate came off as well. I broke the clutch hub nut loose and removed it. The star springs are fine...So I re-assembled, put the clutch cover on, added the oil, and started her up. Ran fine, shifted a couple of times at idle on the center stand. Then I gave the bike some throttle - and something rattles inside. It sounds like a loose cam chain might sound like, but it's coming from the clutch area. I pulled the cover off again, pulled the clutch springs, re-set the steel and friction plates. It appears that the friction plate's tab is one slot over from the others (like a secondary clutch). Fired it up again, same noise. Do any of you experts know what I may have done wrong in the reassembly process? The clutch has good feel   - just now this new noise.

Getting to learn about Connie a bit at a time...
Thank you! Mac
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2020, 08:39:00 am »
The only rattle I know of common to this bike is the cam chain, which is on the right side of the engine. However, it only rattles on start-up due to it needing oil pressure to extend; when the bike is first started, the chain rattles because it is a bit slack. There are threads about this on this forum. But again, this is usually only a start- up rattle, not something that happens after, say, 5 or 8 seconds of running.

The usual problems with the clutch are on the hydraulic side simply because the system is so hard to fully bleed. Of course that does not cause any rattle but it does result in a clutch that engages at different points as the engine warms.

Otherwise I am afraid I cannot be of much help with the mechanical clutch itself- unless a spring(s) is broken or tabs have been sheared off, they do not make noise.

Hopefully someone else can shed some light on this. Best of luck going forward.

Brian

Couldn't resist going into the clutch today to see if the star springs were broken. It's not hard to pull the cover off, then the springs. One steel and one friction plate came off as well. I broke the clutch hub nut loose and removed it. The star springs are fine...So I re-assembled, put the clutch cover on, added the oil, and started her up. Ran fine, shifted a couple of times at idle on the center stand. Then I gave the bike some throttle - and something rattles inside. It sounds like a loose cam chain might sound like, but it's coming from the clutch area. I pulled the cover off again, pulled the clutch springs, re-set the steel and friction plates. It appears that the friction plate's tab is one slot over from the others (like a secondary clutch). Fired it up again, same noise. Do any of you experts know what I may have done wrong in the reassembly process? The clutch has good feel   - just now this new noise.

Getting to learn about Connie a bit at a time...
Thank you! Mac
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Spongelander

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2020, 09:25:15 am »
So, a brief update to the rattle I now hear.  I bled master and slave cylinders, removed slave cylinder for inspection, tore clutch down, stopping at the point of tearing down the basket. I did not measure every part, bike only has 19K miles mostly country riding, and there's little wear on anything, and no broken parts. With all the clutch parts out, I can run the engine and there is no rattle. With everything installed - by the book, slowly and carefully - there's one heck of an intermittent rattle, that appears more on decel, but is still occasionally present, even at idle. It almost sounds like a bearing, maybe on the output shaft near the front bevel drive. Because sound travels so well through bolted-together metal pieces, it's very difficult to find, and I can't use my stethescope on a spinning clutch.

I'm at the limits of my mechanical ability to diagnose this. So - onto the trailer and down to the local dealer, where I'm told there's a person that does a lot of Connie work. I saw a case of a dry bearing elsewhere in this forum, and I pulled the rubber cap off the front drive, all looks fine and can't hear noise there when running.

I have a voice memo of what it sounds like, that I'll post later. I'll update this when I receive a diagnosis. Holding my breath...and wallet...
2014 C14 beautiful deep red, 19K miles/Mountain Runner flash/55 aspect rear tire/I don't ride enough

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2020, 11:34:35 am »
Sponge' thanks for taking the time to keep us in the loop. Good Luck with the diagnosis and the $$$ part associated with that.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Soft clutch 4-5 upshift only
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2020, 12:10:17 pm »
Yeah, as Marty said, thanks for the update.

And again, the best of luck in that it is something that can be corrected reasonably (read: not outrageous in price).


<snip>

I have a voice memo of what it sounds like, that I'll post later. I'll update this when I receive a diagnosis. Holding my breath...and wallet...
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com