Author Topic: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?  (Read 17405 times)

Offline Uglydog56

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I started out on a HawkGT.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
After that I had an SV650.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
Now I have a Concours.  There is an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing reveals no gains in horsepower.
My friend Rick ran several R6's as track-only bikes.  He tried ignition advancers on a couple of them to get more midrange off the corner, there was no noticeable change in lap times.

While this is just anecdotal data at best (none of these dyno tests were performed on my bike, just by fellow enthusiasts); I see a trend here regarding ignition advancers.
Does that answer your question?
Rick A. Cone
COG #9186
98 Connie, 76 CB400F

Offline T Cro ®

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Ok as the OP here, I plainly asked for Igniton Advancer Feedback.
 Now its just a waste of breath.
 Looks like I've Angered the Forum "GODS"
 Go ahead Bash away,  It won't change the fact of this thread became Off topic.
 But if you want, go ahead ride it boy's!!!

Angered the Forum "GODS" you say? No not really; perhaps slightly annoyed that in the very first reply to your question was a definitive answer of "Yeah, couldn't really tell any difference. Not like with the stick coils" To which several more posters chimed in with what helpful info they could offer about the advance plate as well numerous other mods which included the stick coils. The other mods as well the advance plate were discussed freely by you and others but  it seems that the mere mention of stick coils is steering your thread off topic....

In closing I don't see the thread as anything to ride as it is dead in the water due to one thing a negative attitude.

Good day...
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010
Ask me about a set of Stick Coils & Harness or Precision Shift Linkage for your C10 Concours

Offline Motor Head

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I started out on a HawkGT.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
After that I had an SV650.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
Now I have a Concours.  There is an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing reveals no gains in horsepower.
My friend Rick ran several R6's as track-only bikes.  He tried ignition advancers on a couple of them to get more midrange off the corner, there was no noticeable change in lap times.

While this is just anecdotal data at best (none of these dyno tests were performed on my bike, just by fellow enthusiasts); I see a trend here regarding ignition advancers.
Does that answer your question?

 Yes this is the feedback info I would like, and appreciate your input.
 I would also like input from anyone who has done an Increase of timing advance and Tracked Fuel mileage both before and after. Doesn't have to be a bolt on Rotor, could ma just a Mod. Or the big buck replacement programmable box.
It is all taken in and absorbed, then maybe and maybe not, as to do anything at all. But good info, that's the quest.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD

Offline T Cro ®

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BTW While I'm not the first I am one of the few who have tried the advance plate and still run the advance plate simply cause I'm too lazy to see what the bike feels like today without it as it's been in there a long time. Long before Steve came out with the re-drilled exhaust sprocket which I do have as well as a DJ Jet kit with a K&N filter and free flowing exhaust. I like the way my engine runs and have no knock or ping but I'll honestly say that I do not recall much if any difference it made other than a tad better low end response. I don't track my MPG but in town it sucks as I expect it to but on the long stretch I get onto the mid 40's or a touch better.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010
Ask me about a set of Stick Coils & Harness or Precision Shift Linkage for your C10 Concours

Offline Motor Head

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BTW While I'm not the first I am one of the few who have tried the advance plate and still run the advance plate simply cause I'm too lazy to see what the bike feels like today without it as it's been in there a long time. Long before Steve came out with the re-drilled exhaust sprocket which I do have as well as a DJ Jet kit with a K&N filter and free flowing exhaust. I like the way my engine runs and have no knock or ping but I'll honestly say that I do not recall much if any difference it made other than a tad better low end response. I don't track my MPG but in town it sucks as I expect it to but on the long stretch I get onto the mid 40's or a touch better.

 Is that with the +2 or +4, if you could clarify. I would suspect the +4. Thanks.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD

Offline T Cro ®

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Mine is the +4 from Factory. Or is it Factory Pro Racibg? Same company that makes shift kits, jet kilts, and other go fast racing parts.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010
Ask me about a set of Stick Coils & Harness or Precision Shift Linkage for your C10 Concours

Offline xjs36uk

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One of the members of the GPZ900R club in the UK makes and sells 4 degree ignition advancers for £20 each, a lot of club members have bought these and all bar one report noticeable improvements in throttle response and mid-range, whilst sacrificing a small amount of top end. (This of course relates to the GPZ900R/Ninja 900R)

The thing to bear in mind if doing this conversion is fuel quality, a good quality fuel will be quite happy with 4 degrees advance, but as fuel quality can be unreliable from one vendor to the next it may be best to stick with the standard unless you are happy with the quality of your fuel.

I personally have not done this conversion as I am not overly confident in the quality of european fuel sold outside of Germany. (and I like my top end more than midrange).
Mark, One half of the "Formation Crashing Greaves Brothers".    1986 GTR1000 A1, 1988 GTR1000 A2, 1989 GPZ900R A3, 1986 GPZ1000RX A1, 1983 GT750 P3, 2000 ZX12R-A1, 1990 ZZR1100 C1, 1986 CBR500, 1985 XT500, 1987 XJS 3.6, 1995 XJ6 3.2 Sport, 1992 XJ40 4.0S, 1987 Capri 3.0S,1993 Xantia 1.9TD, 1993 W124 250D, 1999 S210 E280 4-Matic, 1996 LDV400, 1999 P38 2.5 DSE. I think I have a problem......

Offline Motor Head

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xjs36uk,
Thanks for you input.
One of the Products I've Looked at is from APE. Is is an adjustable/ slotted advancer. Looks like the high quality you expect from APE, but I've also looked into some Programmable boxes. All just Info gathering at this point. I also found where  removing .032" from the right side of the slot on the advancer will show as +4 when tightened in the new location. Sock advancers are a dime a dozen, so if you want to get one, modify/ try your not out of pocket much.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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xjs36uk,
Thanks for you input.
One of the Products I've Looked at is from APE. Is is an adjustable/ slotted advancer. Looks like the high quality you expect from APE, but I've also looked into some Programmable boxes. All just Info gathering at this point. I also found where  removing .032" from the right side of the slot on the advancer will show as +4 when tightened in the new location. Sock advancers are a dime a dozen, so if you want to get one, modify/ try your not out of pocket much.

motorhead, do what you want, that's how we learn, but having BTDT, I can say if you're looking for power either pony up for a dyna with different curves, or look / spend your money elsewhere. I personally haven't done the dyna, so there may not be much to gain there, either. Keep in mind that the later ignitions incorporate ktric or other methods to effectively advance timing based on throttle position, so they can pump in timing under light throttle that will help fuel economy, then instantly drop back to the base timing by rpm for more power when the throttle is cranked on. This is a much better approach than a static ign advance. I'm not saying that some advance may not help at high rpm, I just haven't seen it. BTW, if you're going to get serious, get to know a good dyno operator, you're going to need him... Steve

Offline Motor Head

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Steve in Sunny Fla,
I don't think I need to get to carried away. Big bucks on this bike, its not nice enough for starters. A few degrees either way with the timing, that's easy. Dyno, well that would be nice, no access at the moment. But I know where in the area to go if needed. Probably be the Butt Dyno for now.
 The old KZ was easier with its springs and weights for a change in the curve. But then there is maintenance on that also.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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The butt dyno isn't going to work perfectly in this scenario. Reason being that it will feel sharper to light throttle at low rpm, but that doesn't mean it's best under heavier accelleration all the way through the rpm's. The light throttle response increase would be just like adding the ktric, or in old-school automotive tech, the vacuum advance. I know you know that to much advance is a bad thing. Over on zrxoa, there's multitudes of dyno runs on the zrx's that show the bikes lost top end HP with advanced plates. I try to deal in real world increases, not placebo effects, so I personally have not run advanced plates once I determined that it wasn't helping anything. JMO,  Steve

Offline Motor Head

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Steve in Sunny Fla,
Well you see the loss of Top End isn't a worry. I  don't want a bike that revs out and screams. These Bikes seem to run good in the lower RPM range as designed. I would just like to see an Increase in Fuel Mileage more than any other thing. But that said, a power gain in the low/Mid range would also be OK. The old Air Cooled KZ Stock curve is from 10-45 degrees. This you probably already know. I shortened the total on it, to 36 as that motor will see 8500 R's, But left the Initial at 10. The old KZ has about the same HP rating as the C10, but more pull in the Top. Still it is only a Fun occasional high pull. Mostly gets shifted at 5K or less, and run at 4K on the highway. I can get 50mpg on the old KZ, freeway and 65mph.
 Most of my riding is a quite an elevation, with a loss in cylinder pressure. So an increase in overall advance, at this altitude should be fine., and help the C10. First to get some mileage documentation. Then I might turn it up a couple and recheck.

 By the way your input IS appreciated, as you seem to be the fellow with the Tuning Lab.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD

Offline jklhill

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Save up and get Steve's 2 Minute Mod Jet Kit and Exhaust Sprocket for $150. You'll be glad you did.

Offline SteveJ.

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Save up and get Steve's 2 Minute Mod Jet Kit and Exhaust Sprocket for $150. You'll be glad you did.
For that $150, you'll get a lot of bang for the buck. The cam sprocket builds up cylinder pressures quite nicely in the low and mid range, the jet kit makes normal throttle openings feel more spirited, without being too abrupt. You can really feel the difference from a stock bike. Nice low buck way to get real improvement on both the butt and regular dyno. My cams were getting to look kinda nasty at about 140k miles, so I put in one of the initial sets of SiSF's torque cams. These build even more cyl pressure and made the bike "come alive" in normal part throttle acceleration. More $$, better results. :thumbs: (but not that much more)

On topic. I also had ground that plate for the advance, I put it back to stock. I get about 39 mpg commuting on two lane road for 12 miles, two traffic lights, about 7-8 corners, speed limit 45-55, which I routinely exceed, driven in a more spirited(sometimes much more) manner on the way home in daylight, more conservative in the morning darkness. I'll also add that there is a lot of junk hanging on my bike, two sets of driving lights(I like to see in the dark :thumbs: ) tip over bars. and a big old 26" Cee Bailey shield, all contributing to extra drag.  Running a 110/80zr18 PR3 radial up front, 160/80/16 Pilot GT bias in the rear. Hope this all helps.

Disclaimer: I've known SiSF personally for about 5 years. A decent human being that knows his stuff. We are hooking up Saturday morning to go here: 

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4834.0

BTW Motor Head, welcome to this place. A new person with a handle like that is a good thing. The more people thinking about stuff, the more stuff gets better. Hope to meet up with you some day.
Perfection Is A Fantasy, Improvement Is Possible(Margie J)
'99 Conk: 227k mi, '98 KLR650 back from Cal
COG 5603, IBA 19921, CBMMA 50 (Cheap B@st@rds Motorcycle Maintenance Assoc, 14 year member)

Offline Motor Head

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SteveJ,
 That's some good info there. I assume that as you had put you Ignition timing back to stock, that you had issues? Your place is down low near Sea Level?
 Loss of cylinder pressure is a problem at this altitude. It has a history of Turbo Charging, still popular, but not like years ago. Modern engines of course make much more power than the older stuff.
 When I was in the Valve adjustment part of the Initial maintenance, I took note of the cam chain layout. Unlike my KZ the ZG has a much easier set up to Degree the cams. The KZ has a slipper block for the top chain guide, in the valve cover, once the valve cover is removed, then no chain tension etc. A tool to mimic the valve cover needs to be installed.
 More cylinder pressure is a good thing, especially up here.  If I reset the ZG cam timing, and want to re-jet, etc, I have that capability.  But unlike my younger years when Gas was cheap, I don't want to drop the mileage, I want to increase it, if possible.
 Performance of the ZG is already decent, while more, as a rule is always fun, where do you stop?
 This particular bike is not going to be a Crotch Rocket bike, as long as I own it.
1990 ZG1000 C10
1982 KZ1000 LTD